Ep. 181: Welcome to Adulting

Kourtney Cromwell:
Welcome to the indoubt Podcast, where we explore the challenging topics that young adults often face. Each week, we talk with guests who help answer questions of faith, life and culture, connecting them to our daily experiences and God’s word. For more info on indoubt, visit indoubt.ca or indoubt.com.

Kourtney Cromwell:
Thanks for joining us on this episode of indoubt. My name’s Kourtney, and it’s so good to have you with us. On this week’s episode, Ryan talks with guest, Jonathan Pokluda. Just in the last couple of months, he’s actually transitioned from being a part of the largest weekly young adult gathering of its kind, to now being the lead pastor at Harris Creek Baptist Church in McGregor, Texas. We talked to Jonathan about his personal story, and how he felt God was using the experiences in his life to better connect with young adults. Jonathan is actually somebody that I came across while listening to another young adult’s podcast, and knew that we had to get him on indoubt. Along with Jonathan’s personal story, we’re also talking about how the value that we place on comfortability has taken the place of being an active member of the church. Our relationship with the Lord is something that as Jonathan stresses can’t be kept private. The transformative power of Christ should be showcased in everything we do.

Ryan McCurdy:
Well today, I’m really excited we have somebody who is, I would say almost like a veteran when it comes to the young adult ministry. Somebody who is… Somebody I look up to when it comes to pastoring, and shepherding, and discussing a lot of young adult topics in the faith, and how young adults wrestle with what it means to be a follower of Jesus. His name is Jonathan Pokluda. And Jonathan, thanks for being on the show with us today.

Jonathan Pokluda:
Well, thanks for having me. Excited. And it’s the first time in my life, someone has called me a veteran, and I’m thinking that’s like code for old guy. Right? I’m struggling with that a little bit.

Ryan McCurdy:
No, that’s a good thing in my books.

Jonathan Pokluda:
All right. Well let’s go.

Ryan McCurdy:
That just means… That just means I look up to you.

Jonathan Pokluda:
Yeah, I appreciate that.

Ryan McCurdy:
That just means you’ve gone ahead of me. You’ve kind of carved this path and you’ve set some tone.

Jonathan Pokluda:
I’m not mad at you. Let’s do it. I’m excited to be on with you, man.

Ryan McCurdy:
That’s great.

Jonathan Pokluda:
I love what you guys are doing. It’s fun.

Ryan McCurdy:
This is great. Thanks, Jonathan. Well, why don’t you start by telling us a little bit of what… Like who you are? What’s your life… What has God been doing in your life? And how did you get to the point that where you are now?

Jonathan Pokluda:
Yeah, man, it’s crazy. So, I was raised in a small town, 6,000 people in the middle of nowhere, South Texas. I was raised in the church, Catholic. In Catholic school for nine years, and I was a complete screw up. When I got into kind of junior high, high school, total identity crisis. And a lot of people say, “Well that’s everybody in high school.” I was in like the agricultural programs. I showed like hogs, chickens, rabbits, goats, steers. I had both ears pierced. First tattoo at 14. Drove this 1979 Mercedes-Benz with hydraulics, said “super fly” on the back, and hung out with the drug dealers. And most of the time people were like, “Okay, dude, that’s not you. You had an identity crisis.” And was… Just barely graduated high school, went to a two year college, and always said I crammed in four years of partying into two years, and they say drugs, sex, and rock and roll. In my case, it was drug, sex, and hip hop. Didn’t have anything to do with God at that time. He was this police officer, and this guy that just wanted to get me for the bad things I had done.
And I moved to Dallas and wanted to be a millionaire before I was 30, and was chasing the American dream. And I was at a bar 16 years ago, and someone invited me to a church. And I loved the bar. I loved the club scene, you know, just continued to party. But I went to this church, I sat in the back row, hung over. I smelt like smoke from the night before, just partying. And I began to wrestle with what do I really believe about God. You know? And I always said that I believed in God, but I’ve never really made a decision based off that belief. I always did what I wanted to do. And I looked at the Hindu faith, the Buddhist faith, the Jewish faith, the Islamic faith, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witness, Scientology. And I kept seeing the historical character of Jesus in history. And I was really blown away by the evidence that supported just the historical narrative of the existence of Christ, and realized that, you know it didn’t… It required faith, but it wasn’t this huge leap of faith, like I thought. That there was… I could logically get to this point, where, “Okay, Jesus lived and died and rose from the dead. And he did that for my sins.”
And when I understood the grace aspect of the scriptures, everything in my life began to change. Who I hung out with changed, what I did for fun changed, the way I talked changed, the way I dated changed. And ultimately five years later what I did for a living and profession changed. And so I went into vocational ministry. That’s the really short version of that story. And I started teaching a year later. And when I started teaching, they continued to let me do that by the grace of God, and young adults would gather, and really all I felt like I was bringing to the table was I understood the challenges they were facing because I had just been there. And the Porch grew to be the largest young adult ministry of its kind in the world. And I got to write a book about it, Welcome to Adulting, and some other books that are in the works. And here we are, man.

Ryan McCurdy:
That’s amazing. That’s beautiful. I mean I think that’s a such a beautiful story. And I… My question for you is, how has your story shaped your ministry? You kind of alluded to it there. But you grow up, and you have this experience of walking away from the faith that you maybe grew up with, with your parents, and then discovering it on your own. And how has that shaped how you pastor? How you care for, how you teach, how you preach? What does that look like?

Jonathan Pokluda:
Yeah. I think in one… In a major way that it’s impacted, is I preach to people who think they’re Christians but aren’t because that’s… was me. You know, like I thought I was a believer, a follower of Jesus, a Christian. But that’s because I was born in America and I went to church on Sundays, and I owned a Bible. And not because I was doing what the scripture said, not because I had legitimately trusted in the grace of Jesus Christ to forgive my sins, and not because I was going to heaven. And I didn’t… You know, I just didn’t realize that.
So when I preach, I tend to preach to people that are apathetic toward the faith and need to be spurred on in that. And I think that’s really all of us. It doesn’t matter if you’re a mature believer, or you’re a new Christian, or you’re just outside the cross. I think we all really need to hear that we can trust God, that he is who he says he is, and that we should pursue him with our everything. That this Christianity deal wasn’t really meant to be done halfway. And you know, it wasn’t really like this accessory to our lives, like we’ve tried to make it here today. That it’s meant to… That we should go all-in with it, one hundred percent.

Ryan McCurdy:
So why do you think people don’t? You kind of… You mentioned this word. You had this idea that God was just this police officer out to get you. Like, is that one of the reasons why? Or just do a ton of people have this underlying belief in theology that God’s out to get them? Or what do you think?

Jonathan Pokluda:
Yeah, I think they don’t. Because wide is it the road that leads to destruction and many will find it; narrow is the path that leads to life and few will find it. And there’s so many distractions in this world, and we don’t love God. We love pleasure, and we love our passions, and we love comfort. And God is inconvenient. At least we think that we don’t believe that his ways actually lead to life. There’s a narrative today that God wants to rip you off, not that he wants to set you free. When in reality, it’s the enemy that seeks to steal, kill, and destroy. And Jesus comes so that we might have life, and have it to the fullest. I’ve read that somewhere. And so if we believe that, then we pursue God. But the truth is we don’t believe that. And so our behavior is always going to follow our belief. And the problem is we don’t believe it.

Ryan McCurdy:
As you’ve pastored a lot of young adults, and now you’re pastoring a church that’s not exclusively young adults, right? The Porch was the ministry that you’re a part of, and now your lead pastor of a church in Waco, Texas. And so what… As you continue to pastor and as you’ve spent a lot of time with young adults, what was kind of the response to seeing people encounter Jesus? At the Porch, like you said, that ministry grew to the largest of any of its kind in the world. And you know, what are some of the misconceptions that maybe older generations have about young adults? And whether we call them Generation Y, or Millennials, or GenZ. And there’s all this research coming out about, oh, what does it mean to be part of these generations? And we get kind of like put into these subtexts and you know, hypothesized about, and kind of researched on. But what are you finding? And what did you find as a young adult’s pastor that young adults really were yearning for? And what they really wanted to see about who Jesus was?

Jonathan Pokluda:
Yeah. Well, so I like will… Probably speak on this as much as just about anything, this and pornography. I mean recovering from pornography, those are the things that if I travel, it’ll be kind of one of those messages on how to reach Millennials, or the next generation, or GenZ. And I always… You know, some of the important things I’ll say is be real. You know, they don’t want to… They long for authenticity in the church. Like share your struggles. Be honest with where you’re at. Give a heroic vision, expand their vision, deploy them like they… Don’t do ministry to people, but through them, like they want to be a part of the church. They want to do something bigger than themselves. But the punchline is after I share this, and that’s… Those are the three main points. And sometimes I’ll give ten points, but after… wherever I am, after I share it, everybody kind of draws the same conclusion, and they’re like, “Man, that’s anybody.” Those three points can apply to anybody in the church. And that’s true. I don’t care if you’re a Boomer, an X’er. I don’t care if you’re a geriatric, senior citizen, elderly, or in high school ministry, like we all want someone to be real with us. We all want someone to challenge us, and to call us to something bigger than ourselves. We all want to feel deployed, like we’re using our gifts in the church. And so the problem is the church isn’t doing that anymore. And Jesus would show up with people, and he had this big ask of them. Like he would say, “Throw down your nets and follow me. Sell everything you have, and give it to the poor, and follow me.” You know, somebody would say, “Well, let me first go bury my dad. Like my dad died. Can I go bury him?” And he said, “Let the dead bury the dead. Follow me.” “Well, let me go tell my parents that I’m going to follow…” “Hey, foxes have holes and birds have nests, but the son of man have nowhere to lay his head. Follow me. What don’t you understand? I’m asking you for everything.”
And so what do we do in the church today, is we come along and we’re like, “Well, will you just please give me an hour once a month? Will you please stand at this door and greet people? And will you please help somebody find their seat?” And we lower the bar and it has the inverse effect. People are going to… their gifts are going to be exploited by corporate America or the corporate world. And they were given those gifts for God, to be deployed in the church. And so I think just calling people to something is where the church misses it. And I do think the next generation really responds to that message. We’re green, we care about the environment, we want to make the world a better place. And you know, we’re chasing those messages in the world, but really the church should be the epicenter of that message, that we’re redeemers, we’re ambassadors of another kingdom, God’s kingdom.

Ryan McCurdy:
Yeah, it’s almost like a reverse effects, right? It’s this idea that like, “Oh, I don’t want to… I don’t want to burden you with work. I don’t want to over… You know, give you too many volunteer hours and not trust that you can say no if you’re getting over overworked. Like I just want to…” You know, I see sometimes in churches and church culture that people tip toe around like, “Oh, I don’t want to step on your toes.” I mean, I’m from Canada, so we say sorry for opening the door for people. Okay, we’re like, we probably did something wrong when we did that. We just apologize all the time. But there’s something to be said of, hey, you know, calling people up, raising the bar. I like how you said that because so often it’s just the, well we want to reach status quo. We don’t want to offend anybody. We want to be comfortable. Like I don’t know, I recently had this thought about when when pastors, or church leaders, or ministry groups say like, “Oh, we have a safe place. We have a safe place, we have a safe place.” And I think about that and I think, “Well that’s awesome that people can be themselves and not be judged. That kind of safety is good.” But like you’re saying, I don’t see Jesus saying, “Hey, like live a safe, comfortable life.”

Jonathan Pokluda:
Yeah. Or stay the way you are. Now, if we believe in the doctrine of sanctification, then following Jesus means changing. And James, Jesus’s bro, he says, “Do not just be hearers of the word and so deceive yourself, but do what it says.” And he says that when you read the Bible, you should be like a person who looks in the mirror, that when they see something out of place, they don’t just go on about their day, they fix it. And that the Word of God is really a mirror for us. That we’re examining our lives against what it says, and we’re conforming ourselves, and that we would become followers of God, like God in the way that we pursue him through what the scriptures actually call us to.
And so the church is a safe place, meaning that it’s shepherded by the elders there, the overseers, that they are protecting the flock from evil. But it’s not a safe place as in, “Hey, come in and nobody’s going to ask much of you.” That’s not a definition of safety. That’s a definition of dying. For the church to be alive… Think about that. For life to be in the church is for the body, the hands and feet of Jesus, of which he is the head, for them to be actively doing and serving, and going and seeking and finding. And if they’re not doing that, you know, again, just to quote his brother, “Faith without works is dead.”

Ryan McCurdy:
And so this message obviously that you’re kind of… You know, it’s not a new message. What you’re teaching and what you’re preaching. I mean it’s obviously foundational to the scriptures, and to the Gospel, and to the character and nature of who Jesus is.

Jonathan Pokluda:
It’s about 2000 years old. Yeah.

Ryan McCurdy:
Yeah. And so my question is this actually, what would be some of the obstacles of the everyday young adult to take up their cross and follow Jesus?

Jonathan Pokluda:
Recently I, I called the body, “Hey, we need to share a faith.” Like how often should we share the Gospel with people? If we’re followers of Jesus, everywhere we go, we should be constantly looking for opportunities and creating opportunities to share our faith. And you know, I think some people are like, “Well, but we know we need to do relational evangelism.” And I just said, “You’re not going to read apps and walk away with the conclusion that the strategy, our go to strategy is going to be relational evangelism.” Like that’s great. We can always build relationships with people in love; let everything we do be done in love. But scripture with everything we have. “We’re trying to compel men,” Paul writes, the Holy Spirit through Paul.
And so I think the only backlash is just when somebody doesn’t want to walk in obedience, and they want to pursue their comfort. The other one, Ryan, I would say backlash is, is if you start smashing people’s idols, they don’t like that. And if comfort’s an idol, or they just want this, me and Jesus mentality, that they can get frustrated. But that’s shepherding, man. And I don’t do it from a heart of like… I don’t get anything out of somebody else being obedient. I just know they’ll receive blessings. I know that they receive joy, and they begin to experience their purpose, and they’re living their life as God intended. And that’s what I want for them, you know? And so just trying to help them find that, I think they… Most of the people, they experience that life, and they want more of it.

Ryan McCurdy:
Yeah. Yeah, you made a comment about this corporate America and corporate style of church or ministry, and something like that. And how so often people can be viewed, even in the church, as they volunteer, as they serve as projects, right? “Hey, we need this project done and we need you to get it done.” And Jesus, all throughout the Gospels treats people like people, not like projects. He meets with them and what does he do? He gives of himself first. He doesn’t require that they get anywhere. And it’s a subtlety. It’s a subtle difference of motive, right? “Hey, I want you to serve in the church because I know it’s good for you. Or I want you to take your faith seriously because I know it’s good for you.” It has nothing to do… I like how you say that, it doesn’t get you anything better. You just… You want to shepherd them and you know that it’s good for them. And you could say the same thing. “Hey, I want you to read your Bible. Hey, I want you to read your Bible.” And it comes from a different place. A motive for good or a motive of, “Oh, what will it make me feel like if you know the people I’m pastoring are reading their Bibles?” You know what I mean?

Jonathan Pokluda:
Sure.

Ryan McCurdy:
Like the difference is underneath the surface, but the ramifications of it are, there’s freedom. Yeah, there’s a safe place when you talk about elders, and pastors shepherding, the flock is being protected. I think that’s a huge… That’s a huge thing that I appreciate even as you’re saying that. It’s kind of a takeaway of, yeah, what does it mean to actually shepherd, to care for?
So you know, you obviously shepherd in your church and you shepherd in a lot of ways. Even on your podcasts that you’ve done, you’re talking, you’re doing relationship. But you’ve mentioned that you wrote a few books, and Welcome to Adulting. And in these books, what are some of the things that you really highlight? And that you really target in terms of caring for? And shepherding people that you don’t know, and that are reading your books, what is that like for you?

Jonathan Pokluda:
Yeah, I mean I think books are just a tool. Just like podcasts… Maybe the podcast becoming something that’s a tool to care for people. And so I’m constantly trying to stay in tune with, “Hey what are folks struggling with today, what are people struggling with today? What are barriers to the faith, what prevents them from loving God more? And how can we address that?” And I think an end goal of just about everything I do is, is to stir their affections for Jesus. I want people to know God more, and love God more, and find life in following him.
And so everything in Welcome to Adulting. And then the last one is… It’s coming out, is Welcome to Adulting: Survival Guide. It’s a 42 day devotional. And I wrote that just thinking, “Man, if people would just start their day focused on the things of God, I think it’s really going to benefit them.” And there’s so much going on right now as to where I feel like the science is catching up with theology because you’re seeing things like headspace, and meditation, and wellness, and all of these ideas where that’s just what God told us to do thousands of years ago, when he said, “I delight in your law. You know, it’s like honey to my lips. So I hunger and thirst for you to create space in everything you do. Do it with thanksgiving by prayer and petition.” And so those are just different ways, I think different tools to help people.

Ryan McCurdy:
Yeah. That’s awesome. So Jonathan as you’ve been… Yeah, as you’ve been pastoring, and as you’ve done a lot of podcasts, and we’ve even talked about some of the few things that a lot of young people want, and are passionate about. Wanting authenticity, realness.

Jonathan Pokluda:
Yeah.

Ryan McCurdy:
What would you say, and to the young adults who are listening today, to this conversation that you are having. And they’re coming from a place where they would say, “I know who I am, and God… Like I read my Bible from time to time. I’m somewhat not connected to my church, and church isn’t that important to me. Like I have my own relationship with Jesus and that’s what’s important. But you know, why is the church so important?” How would you respond to that?

Jonathan Pokluda:
Yeah, I would just say, “What do you believe about God? And like how do you know about God?” And they’re going to say, “What do you mean how do I know about God?” And I’m going to say like, “How do you know about him? Like, what instructs you of him?” And eventually they’re going to say, “Well, the Bible, the scriptures.” And I’m going to say, “Well, do you believe the Bible’s true?” And they’re going to say, “I hope, yes.” And I’m going to say, “Well, does the Bible say that we should belong to a church? And why are you picking and choosing what of the Bible you want to apply to your life? Because it says in Hebrews 10:25, ‘Do not forsake the gathering together as some are in the habit of doing.’ Do you know why the Holy Spirit wrote this some are in the habit of not meeting together? Because you’re in the habit of not meeting together. And so that’s why he wrote that to you.”
And so this, “me and Jesus”, you know my, “My faith is personal.” Your faith can be personal, but it can never be private. It wasn’t meant to be. There’s no such thing as a private Christian faith. I mean, if the apostles’ faith were private, you wouldn’t have a faith. You wouldn’t even know who God was. But because they martyred and gave their life in following him, and walking in obedience, you get to know who God is, and benefit from that. And so the baton has been passed to you. And so don’t drop it on the ground, or put it in the safe. Run with that torch, run with that baton. And again, so I just, you know… “Do not forsake the gathering together as some are in the habit of doing, but continue to excel, and encourage one another, spur one another on towards love and good deeds. All the while you see the day approaching.”
And I think this is… If we believe God’s Word is true and it says that, it says in Hebrews 13:17, “You know, obey your leaders,” talking about church leaders, “and submit to their authorities that you’ll be a joy to them and not a hindrance.” And so to obey your leaders, you’ve got to have leaders. To have leaders, you’ve got to go to a place where the leaders are. And so all of these things are in the scriptures. They’re really clear. Even that Paul wrote to the… You know, the Church of Thessalonica, or the Church of Colossae, or the Church of Galatia, the Church of Philippi. I mean these were churches, they were gatherings. There was nobody on the fringe that was a part of that church. It’s kind of like if you took my spleen out, and you set it on the table, it would be gross. And because it’s a part of the body, and it’s beautiful when it’s in the body, and it’s functioning, and it’s working, but separate it, it’s gross. And I think that’s true for us too, when we separate from the body, and we try to call ourselves the church, it’s gross.

Ryan McCurdy:
Yeah. Well, I appreciate… I appreciate how you even respond to that because so often when people are like, “Oh yeah, the church just isn’t for me. Like, you know, just me and Jesus. Like I go for my walk in the park with my dog and that’s me spending time with God.” And I’m like, “Okay, if you’re going to walk in the park with with your dog and be in prayer, that’s beautiful. That’s amazing. Good on you for that.” But oftentimes when I’m in conversation with other pastors or other people and they say, “I don’t want to be part of the church, or I just.. I need to take a break or I need to do some of this,” the response can always be like, “Oh, why are you feeling that way?” And what I’m just… I just want to acknowledge that I appreciate how you respond to that. It was like, “Oh, well let’s go to the text.” Like why do we start with our own emotions and our own comfort? Why do we start with us? We should be starting with God. And I think that is refreshing. And I think that is something that a lot of young adults are like, “Oh yeah, okay, this is bigger than me. This is, this can be traced to something that was written thousands of years ago and instructed for me to live, to flourish, to be at my best.”

Jonathan Pokluda:
Yeah. I think, I think our feelings are god a lot of times, little-g god, and that you know, there’s this, there’s this… The people that the scripture calls enemies of the cross of Christ, says they’re enemies. So like none of us would say, “Yeah, we’re enemies of the cross.” None of us want to be that. Nobody probably listening wants to be an enemy of the cross of Christ. But in Philippians, the Holy Spirit through Paul writes, “There are those who are enemies of the cross of Christ. Their destiny is destruction. Their god is their stomach.” Then what he means when he says their god is their stomach, is he’s really saying their god is their feelings, their god is their appetite. They eat what they’re hungry for, they follow their feelings. And so, I mean, I could do some deductive reasoning and come to the place where I could draw the conclusion that the Bible says that when my god is my feelings, I’m an enemy of the cross of Christ. And that makes sense because Jesus didn’t feel like going to the cross, you know? “Lord, let this cup pass from me, but not my will.” Thy will – I want to do what you want to do regardless of how I feel. And then he can say for the joy set before him, he endured the cross.

Ryan McCurdy:
Yeah, yeah. I read a book, the theme of the book was on something called the dark night of the soul, which is like a theology of suffering and separation from God, and the feelings of despair and calling out to God. And when he doesn’t… When it feels like he doesn’t answer. If we feel God, oh, therefore he must be there. If we sense God with our… You know, our eyes, our ears, our touch or whatever, then okay, then he… We’re assured that he’s there. And the author is saying, actually, “No, it’s, it’s when you, when you don’t have those senses and you act and live out of faith, that is a realized faith. You’ve said no to your idols of pursuing feelings and fleeting things.” And so, you know, I think that some of the authenticity that as you’re talking about, that’s what I see a lot of young adults craving, and wanting for. Is like, “Hey, what happens when the storm comes? Then what?”

Jonathan Pokluda:
Yeah. Yeah, I think that’s really true, Ryan. I mean, feelings are real, but they’re not always reliable. They’re not always something that we can trust. And so sometimes we have to like monitor our feelings and say, “Okay, that’s how I feel, is that the truth?” And a sign of maturity is really learning not to trust your feelings first. And so like, when my… I have three kids, but when they’re about three years old, you can just see how they just trust their feelings. You know, they just do… Well, they follow their appetite, they eat what they’re hungry for. If they want to touch something that’s hot, they touch it. If they want to run in the street, they run in the street. They do whatever their impulses say. And as you mature, you learn not to, you know? You really learn why I feel that, but I can’t just do that. I want to say that, but I can’t just say that. And and so it truly is a sign of maturity, not to just follow our every feeling, and our every impulse. But there for some reason today, it’s becoming more and more normal that you should, that you should just follow your feelings. That your feelings are God. And I think that’s a satanic message. The Satanic Church, the mantra of the Satanic Church is do as I will. And I think more and more that’s the mantra of our culture. Do as thy will. Do whatever you want. Their god is their stomach, and their destiny is destruction. And so I think more and more we need to come to a place where we say, as Jesus did in the garden, “Not my will, but thy will.” God, what would you have me do? And, and in that message, we’re going to be led to life. We’re going to find life there.

Ryan McCurdy:
This is amazing, Jonathan. I feel like we could talk for many more hours and I’d love to just pry into your brain and ask you what God’s doing in your life, but also what he’s been teaching you, and and as you shepherd and pastor. And so thanks again so much for being with us today.

Jonathan Pokluda:
My joy, brother, thanks for having me on.

Kourtney Cromwell:
Thanks so much for listening today. There’s a lot of information that Jonathan and Ryan covered in this episode, and I’m glad you were able to join us. It’s such a cool reminder as you think about the fact that as we mature, we begin to see the need for Christ in our lives. As hard as that lesson is, it’s something that I’ve personally had the blessing of seeing in my own life. If you’d like to follow Jonathan on Instagram or Twitter, you’ll find him @JPokluda. And if you’d like to find out more about his books, you can go to his website, www.welcometoadultingbook.com. If there’s anything that you’d like to share with us, please do. You can send us a private message on social media, or you can email me at info@Indoubt.ca. This was a great episode of Indoubt, and I hope you’ll join us for next week, as we talk with Canadian Bible Teacher, Dr John Neufeld.

Kourtney Cromwell:
Thanks so much for listening. If you want to hear more, subscribe on iTunes and Spotify, or visit us online at Indoubt.ca or Indoubt.com. We’re also on social media, so make sure to follow us on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter.