Ep. 223: What is Marriage?

Kourtney Cromwell:
Welcome to the indoubt Podcast where we explore the challenging topics that young adults often face. Each week we talk with guests who help answer questions of faith, life and culture, connecting them to our daily experiences and God’s Word. For more info on indoubt, visit indoubt.ca.

Kourtney Cromwell:
Hey everyone, this is Kourtney. Thanks for joining us for this episode of indoubt and I’m hoping that you’re looking forward to this as much as I am. On today’s episode, we’re joined by Preston Sprinkle who’s a biblical scholar, an international speaker, and an author. And we’re talking through the question, how do I talk to my gay neighbour?
As you’ll hear, Preston discusses topics that can sometimes be seen as controversial and this is no different. There’s certainly a lot of tension around the LGBTQ community with misunderstandings from both sides of the debate. Christians often cast a stigma on the LGBTQ community and much hurt and pain is associated with the church or with Christians for people who identify as LGBTQ.
We’re jumping into a topic that we recognize is sensitive and I’m hoping that through this episode you’re able to take one step further in the conversation or at least play a part in becoming more informed in this discussion. Ultimately, the primary question turns into, What is Marriage? And Daniel and Preston take care to discuss what that means in terms of the secular society we live in and what that means directly from the Bible. So my hope is that you’d find this conversation informative and helpful, returning to what the Bible says as we listen to Daniel and Preston Sprinkle.

Daniel Markin:
Welcome to indoubt. My name’s Daniel Markin. I’m joined today with Preston Sprinkle. How are you doing, Preston?

Preston Sprinkle:
I’m doing all right, man. All things considered, I’m doing fine.

Daniel Markin:
Good. Good to hear. Preston, for our audience who don’t know you, tell us a little bit about yourself and where you’re from, what you do, and tell us about your family. Anything that you think is need-to-know.

Preston Sprinkle:
Yeah. Well, I’ll try to be brief. I’m 44 years old, married to my wife, been married coming up on 19 years. We have four kids together. Three are teenagers, three girls and a boy. My son is 11 years old. Let’s see, I’ve been a Christian since I was about 19 and most of that time has been spent either in Christian education, like pursuing education, or teaching in an educational environment. So I fell in love with studying the Bible and immediately wanted to be a Christian professor, like a professor at a Bible college or Christian college. Fell in love with writing and academia. But then the last, I would say maybe the last 10 years, I’ve tried to bridge that gap a bit more between the Christian academy and the average person in the streets or in the pews.
And in that journey I’ve been writing and speaking on what a lot of people would consider controversial issues and I don’t know why that is. I don’t consider myself a very controversial personality necessarily, but I don’t know, I just have been drawn to topics that people seem to fight over. And I like to try to navigate maybe a better way to converse about contentious topics. So the last, gosh, seven, eight years I’ve been focusing on issues around sexuality and gender.
So right now I run an organization called The Center for Faith, Sexuality and Gender. I’ve been doing that for just over three years now, where we help train church leaders in how to go about this conversation in a way that’s maybe better than we’ve done in the past; one that’s saturated with biblical faithfulness, but also radical love towards people who have been marginalized and really hurt by the church.

Daniel Markin:
Absolutely. You just segued right into… That’s exactly what I want to talk with you about today is one of the questions that we get a lot. I work with young adult ministry in both my church and then here with indoubt. And one of the questions that, and one of the topics that comes up over and over again and ones at conferences that fill right up, that people are just so hungry for, is the issues around sexual identity and gender and same-sex marriage.
There’s so many different topics within that one. But the one I want to kind of hone in on today is the topic of how do we reach out to our gay neighbour and in around that topic, how do we hold an Orthodox position, what the Bible says, so truth. But also how do we speak the truth in love? Because, like you said, we haven’t done that conversation well. I think we typically either will be on the one side of like, “We’ll give them the truth, and we’ll pretend it’s love, so it’s not actually love,” right? “So you’re getting the truth. This is what the Bible says,” and there’s no love. Or there’s too much love and then there’s no biblical truth.
How do we blend the two so it can be loving and faithful. I guess to open this up in this discussion of reaching out to our gay neighbour, what do you think are some of the pitfalls as far as language that we should be communicating better?

Preston Sprinkle:
Yeah. I think the first thing to understand… Well, let me first of all say everybody’s different. Every relationship’s unique. There is no one-size-fits-all. In general, I think we need to understand the cultural context of where we’re at. The year 2020. There’s been decades of some really deep pain that LGBT people have experienced from Christians. Some of them have been flat out spiritually, physically, emotionally, sexually abused by the church.
A best case scenario, there’s a good chance that if somebody is LGBTQ, they’ve had a really bad experience with Christians. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve met a gay person that has said, “I’ve never met a Christian that was kind to me.” Any kind of relationship that a Christian is trying to engage in with somebody who’s gay, lesbian, transgender, there’s a good chance, I’m not saying it’s true of every case, but there’s a good chance that person, the LGBT person has really had a bad taste of Christianity.
So it’s not like we’re coming at this with just with a blank slate. So I think understanding that is really important. It’d be like being a missionary to, I don’t know, I’m just making this up, but let’s just say you’re a missionary to some country that was enslaved by Americans for decades. And this is an extreme example, okay? But just for the sake of illustrating the point, if you come in there, you need to understand that, okay, there’s been decades of enslavement. If I just come and say, “Hey, I want to talk to you about our American ways,” they’re going to be like, “Dude, get away from me. You’re going to try to enslave me again.”
So understanding that long history, I think, is really important, which is why I think most gay and lesbian people… They’ve heard Christians talk about the quote unquote “truth”. What we believe. What they haven’t experienced is our love. That we actually care for people that we believe… I know I’ve met some gay people that think Christians don’t even think that gay people are human. It’s like, “Gosh. Where did they get that from?” Well, maybe they’ve had experiences where they’ve been so dehumanized that they might need to hear, “Hey, you’re a fellow image of God-bearer, and you bring value to this world.”
You ask about language, though. Yeah. There’s certain terms that do create relational walls instead of relational bridges, terms like homosexual. Most people I know use it innocently, but the term homosexual has been used by people in a really negative way over the years, that for a lot of gay people, when they hear a Christian using the term homosexual, it just kind of builds a little relational wall instead of a bridge. Practicing homosexual, the gay lifestyle or the gay agenda, these kinds of really broad-brush, stereotypical phrases.
Again, I’m not saying everybody uses these phrases is trying to be unloving, but it comes off… These terms have a stigma to it that are unhelpful. Typically, rather than a term, just get to know the person’s name and hear their story rather than try to categorize who they are and try to put an identity on them. Just ask them who they are, ask them how they identify and honour the way they want to be referred to.

Daniel Markin:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). So I guess what you’re getting at is you want to open the discussion with engaging with the person.

Preston Sprinkle:
Yeah.

Daniel Markin:
Treat them as a person first. I think that’s the way to go about it, right? Yes. We want to hold to true doctrine, but you got to remember that’s a person on the other end there.

Preston Sprinkle:
Right. Well, and part of true doctrine is believing. The most fundamental doctrine we believe about people is that all people are created in the image of God. That comes right out of Genesis 1. It’s one of the fundamental tenets of the Christian faith, so it’s not even like there’s people here and doctrine here. If you’re true to some doctrine, you will be loving towards people.
I’ve often said, “Our truth won’t be heard until our grace is felt.” Until people feel that we are a gracious people as Christians, that we are kind and we want to embody, as Paul says, the kindness of God that leads to repentance. And until people feel that grace, they’re not going to want to hear our truth.
And this is the beautiful thing about Jesus. Jesus preached a really high standard of truth. He had a really high standard of obedience, but for some reason He was able to love people so well that people that were falling short of that standard wanted to be around Him. So if Christians are like, “Well, the LGBT people are falling short of the Christian standard.” Okay, great. Maybe. Sure. But do they want to be around you? Because if not, then you’re not embodying Jesus as you ought because people that fell short of his standard wanted to actually be around Him and listen to him and they felt loved and cared for by Him.

Daniel Markin:
It seems to me like there’s almost two debates, and one is same-sex marriage, reaching out to gay people within the church, right? So people who are trying to affirm this in the church, and then the approach of, what about people who clearly aren’t a part of church, never grown up in it, didn’t want anything to do with it?
I guess I want to talk a little bit about the people who maybe might be on the margins, right? And a lot of times I think this comes from a place of fear with Christians trying to engage in this. Fear in the one sense of feeling inadequate to deal with the onslaught of the “evil culture”. I used air quotes there because I think we tend to view our world and say, “Everything in it’s bad,” and we try and recoil. But there’s the balance of that, but also looking at our culture and saying, “Well, it’s also broken. Ought we not try and breathe life into it as well?” So what do you think are some of the reasons that we haven’t done this well?

Preston Sprinkle:
Yeah, that’s a good question. That would take up the rest of our time, I think, unpacking that. I think there’s a tendency, the human heart, to stigmatize any kind of person or struggle or experience that’s not your own. So if five to 10% of the population experiences some kind of same-sex attraction, there’s debates about the percentage, well, gosh, at most, 90/95% of people don’t have that. And so there’s already going to be a fear of what they don’t know.
Also, I think there’s been this kind of machismo, masculine kind of culture in America that the church has absorbed that doesn’t just disagree with, say, same-sex behaviour, but sees it as just a particularly bad sin, something that’s so far out there.
And I remember growing up in a real kind of masculine church environment, and I don’t know where it came from, but I feel like I absorbed this narrative that I’m not just supposed to disagree with same-sex relationships, but I’m supposed to be abhorred by the person.
And I remember as a teenager meeting… Work at a restaurant and meet somebody who’s gay and I actually thought they were kind of cool. I enjoyed being around them. But I deep down almost felt guilty about that, like, “No, I’m supposed to despise this person,” even though everyone else in the restaurant was either heterosexual or immoral or greedy or they didn’t care for the poor. It must have been sin outside the church, but for some reason, I didn’t feel guilt. I didn’t feel like I needed to be disgusted at them. So I think there is just something in the air of the church that this is a particularly, not just bad sin, but really intrinsically bad person, more bad than just, “We’re all sinners and fallen short of the glory of God.”
I think we’re moving beyond that. In some circles it’s almost the opposite now. In some progressive environments, I think you might have this in Canada, to be LGBTQ is almost like…

Daniel Markin:
More virtuous?

Preston Sprinkle:
Yeah. And to be a white straight male is like, “You’re what’s wrong with this whole world?” Again, everything’s changing and every environment’s different. But again, for many LGBT people who grew up in the church, they have had that stigma over them and it’s hard to live beyond that.
Again, I don’t personally know any LGBT people who don’t have this kind of internal shame built up in them that hasn’t been just compounded by the Christian message. Not that when they do something wrong, that’s a wrong thing, but they’re intrinsically ugly before God just by their particular struggle. So yeah, there’s so many layers here, man. It’s hard to unravel it all, but…

Daniel Markin:
Yeah, absolutely. Well, let me ask you this then. As you have spent time studying, as scholarly, as you spent time really looking at the truth aspect of it in the Bible, right? Because part of it is, yes, we’re dealing with the people, we’re trying to love them well, right? We haven’t done a good job at that. And so that’s something we need to improve on, getting to know the person.
As you’ve looked at the truth side with the Bible, what really stood out to you? If you can think of two arguments, because there’s six verses in the Bible that mention homosexuality, and depending on which commentators you read or which people take a different spin on it, especially with our postmodern world where everyone’s opinion is equally valid.
How have you as a scholar been able to navigate that and been like, “Well, look, here’s what the Bible says and I got to reason with that.” What has really stood out to you as some of the things that you’re like, “Man, I can’t disagree with the Scriptures on this.”

Preston Sprinkle:
Yeah, that’s good. That’s good. I think it’s important to understand it. I’m primarily a Bible guy. I’m primarily an academic so it’s easy for me to raise two theological arguments, and I do that. I do that as thoroughly as I can. It is important to understand, though, that when we move from the kind of love or relational aspect into the theological aspect, we need to carry that posture with us because for most people that I know, it’s just human nature. People see or believe what they want to. And for a lot of people to hold to an affirming view that the Bible affirms same-sex relationships, they have a massive heart for LGBT people and they’re sick and tired of seeing them be dehumanized by the church.
So, I think understanding if all you do is combat argument for argument, typically people are holding onto those arguments for deeper reasons than just they laid them out unbiasedly.
So you mentioned the six passages, and there are six passages that directly address and prohibit same-sex sexual relationships. But I think those are kind of secondary. The primary question is, what is marriage? This is where almost everybody I talk to just misses this fundamental question. The question isn’t why can’t two people of the same sex get married? The question is: what is marriage? What is the definition of marriage?
Now, in most secular Western nations, I’ll say they define marriage as a union between two consensual adults. That’s one definition of marriage. It’s a very recent Western secular definition. It doesn’t necessarily mean it’s wrong, that’s just a fact. But historic Judeo-Christianity has always defined marriage as a one-flesh union between two sexually different persons. Not sexually in terms of sexual attraction, but two people of different biological sexes coming together, and we see this in Genesis 1 and 2, they come together to form a one-flesh union and that equality within difference. They’re both human, but they’re sexually different.
Those are two essential ingredients in the biblical understanding of what a one-flesh covenant union is. Now some might disagree with that. “No, I don’t believe that.” But at least if you don’t agree with that, you have to at least state how…
Well, I always ask people three questions before we even get into this kind of debate. Number one, what’s your definition of marriage? If you say that sex difference is irrelevant for marriage, then I’m going to say, “Okay, well, where did you get that definition from?” You can’t just assume that that’s what marriage is. That’s a very recent modern view.
And then I would ask the third question, “How does scripture inform your definition of marriage that it’s just a consensual union between two adults,” because you look at Genesis 2, you look at Matthew 19, Mark 10, Ephesians 5 and other passages. It’s just from my vantage point it seems that the Bible defines marriage as a union between two sexually different persons.
So the six prohibition passages are there because those relationships are a departure from a biblical definition of marriage. But the marriage question is the most important.

Daniel Markin:
I think what you’re saying about marriage, we do live in a very confused time about marriage. And it’s almost like the idea that marriage is a legal contract. And I’ve been noticing this in more and more movies. Just funny enough, I just watched one on Netflix called Marriage Story and the whole thing was, basically, these two people were unhappy in their marriage now and it just goes to the painful divorce. And the whole thing about costing them tons of money and they’re going bankrupt. Lawyers are involved. And almost the underlying message behind this was, “Look, you have every right to be happy. Just don’t get locked in legally to this thing.” Right?

Preston Sprinkle:
Right.

Daniel Markin:
Just find expression and your love, sexual expression, sexual gratification, whatever that looks like, wherever you would want. And it felt to me like a very individualized expression of what marriage is.

Preston Sprinkle:
Yeah. No, I think you’re dead on. The secular view, and again, if somebody is listening and they’re not a Christian, I don’t say secular in a demeaning way. Just somebody who doesn’t hold to the the values of Christianity.
In the West, Europe, North America, the ethic, especially the sexual ethic, is don’t harm anybody. Make sure it’s consensual. And if it does seem things are in place and if it brings you pleasure, then go for it. Which is why you have a heavy emphasis on romance and desire in marriage, which is also why you have such a high divorce rate, because if the foundation of marriage is consensuality, don’t harm anybody, if it feels good, do it, if you’re romantically attracted to this person, sexually attracted, then go ahead and get married.
And when those things wear off, which most the time they do, then it’s like, “Well, it’s not there anymore. The emotions aren’t there anymore. The romance isn’t there anymore. “Hey, do you agree that’s a split up?” “Okay. Yeah I agree. It’s consensual. We don’t have kids so it’s not hurting anybody.” And sometimes kids are involved and that raises a bigger question.
I think all these things go hand-in-hand. Whatever your sexual ethic is, your marriage ethic, your relationship ethic, it’s going to tremendously affect how you practically live. And I do fear that, even the way I defined marriage earlier, I think a lot of Christians wouldn’t necessarily define marriage that way. I think a lot of Christians define marriage as, “Oh, you fall in love. It’s consensual. And for some reason, we think it should be between a man and woman.” But a lot of Christians, I don’t think, have a real worked out reason why that is, why it has to be between a man and a woman. Yeah. Yeah. All these things are all intertwined with each other, so.

Daniel Markin:
Yeah. You even referenced that a little bit in your book where you’re saying there was a guy… You sat next to him on a plane and you’re like, “I’m writing a book on homosexuality.” And he’s like, “Oh, it’s completely wrong.” And the guy’s a Christian. And you’re like, “Well, what verses? Tell me why you think that is.” “Well, it just is. I’ve read them.”
I think part of it is engaging in this discussion, which is such a deep and sensitive discussion. Do you think that Christians should be more prepared before getting involved with that? Because, again, bringing it back to one of the difficulties of sharing our faith with people who are non-Christians and people who would identify as gay, right. We don’t know our faith well enough and so we’re scared that they’re going to ask questions that we can’t answer and they’re going to have rebuttals that make us look like a bigot and that’s going to take away from any sort of progression in this friendship or this relationship to win them to Christ. Do you think that Christians are just ill-informed?

Preston Sprinkle:
Some are. Some aren’t. I think, traditionally, yes. I think conservative Christians have done a good job rehearsing what they believe, but not analyzing why they believe it. This is a bigger problem just across the board. I do think there’s a lot of fear driving at least some Christians, maybe a lot of Christians, that you have this doctrinal statement, and this is what we believe. But if you are pushed on, “Well, why do you believe that? What about this? And what about that verse?” Sometimes people get nervous, and I think we need to have no fear. Let’s look at what the text of Scriptures says about these things. As Martin Luther recommended, “Let’s always take our views and put them back to the text of Scripture to make sure that we are following what the Bible actually says.”
Now, some of the most intelligent, biblically knowledgeable people I know are gay Christians because they’ve had an urgency to read tons of stuff on this topic and to think critically through it. Rarely have I met a gay Christian… Even when I say gay Christian, I’m not assuming they even believe in same-sex relationships. They can be same-sex attracted and still follow a traditional sexual ethic. But either way, if they grow up in the church and they are same-sex attracted, most, if not all the ones I have come across, has spent many hundreds of hours reading and thinking and thinking and reading and researching and talking. So it can be frustrating for them when they do meet a conservative Christian, and all that person can do is quote Romans 1 as if this gay person who’s spent hundreds of hours researching the Bible doesn’t know what Romans 1 says.

Daniel Markin:
Right.

Preston Sprinkle:
And the whole point of Romans 1 is to get to Romans 2 and 3. Romans 2 is like, “Look, you hypocrite, don’t you dare judge the Romans one person because you’re also that person.” And by the time it gets to Romans 3, it’s like, “We’ve all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Thank you for Jesus who rescues all of us.”
But I think that has also been a frustration when Christians, typically those on the more conservative end, when they give thin answers to thick questions, it can be really frustrating for somebody out of deep urgency and even reverence for scripture has spent so much time studying this, get this pat, superficial answer.
And I think people have moved beyond that. My whole ministry is based on churches wanting us to come out and help them to think through these issues and we’re booked out for a long time. So there’s a lot of churches that are wanting to engage this conversation much more thoroughly, which gives me a lot of hope.

Daniel Markin:
Yeah. Back to the original question. How do we reach out to our gay neighbours? Let’s just picture a scenario here. We have someone, a young adult, and they’re in their class, they’re trying to be a light for Christ in a secular university. One of the people in their group is… Maybe they’ll talk about religion, have some sort of knowledge of the Bible, but is an outwardly professing, would identify as gay, lives that way. Perhaps say the student comes to you and says, “Preston, help me be able to share Christ and walk with this person?” What kind of advice or counsel would you give to this student?

Preston Sprinkle:
Yeah, that’s good. That’s a great question. Like with any relationship, there has to be a good level of trust as a foundation. You have to have a lot of relational collateral for somebody to even invite you into the intimate parts of their life to where they’re going to trust you for that guidance. So I would say, if you really want to walk with somebody in this within their sexuality, helping them to pursue Christ in that, I would say begin by being a really, really good listener. Also, you need to demonstrate a lot of humility, too, and this is where a lot of Christians go wrong. They think they need to have all the right answers just right away. And if they ask them something, boom, give them right answer. But for a lot of younger people, they actually don’t trust people when they come off as having all the right answers at every question.
So even being able to say, “I’m not sure about that. Let’s walk together and search the scriptures on that. And just having that real humility and grace that makes the person want to not just be around you but to trust you.
And also giving the person space to wrestle on their own. This is the number one thing I’ve heard from people who were a part of the LGBT community and got saved and now they’re walking with the Lord. They said, “You know what? This pastor, this friend, this Christian that I met, they gave me space to wrestle. They didn’t cram it down my throat. They didn’t demand that I would sign off on all the right doctrine of it right away.”
I had one of my good friends who’s on fire for Jesus, said, “You know, this pastor who reached out to me, he gave me like two years of… He would never even bring it up.” Only when I brought it up, “Hey, what do you think the Bible says about LGBT stuff?” But then he would very graciously address it, but he gave me space to wrestle.” Genuine belief has to come from within. It can’t be forced from without.
So just not being scared to let the person wrestle out loud. And they’re not going to be where they need to be right away. None of us are. Sanctification doesn’t happen overnight. So just being able to give that same kind of grace to people who are wrestling with their sexuality. So yeah, I think listening, humility, give people space. Those are three key things I would advise somebody to do.

Daniel Markin:
Yeah. And that sounds like just three aspects of being a good friend.

Preston Sprinkle:
Right. You’re correct in saying this. How do you manage other relationships anyway? How would you want to be related to you by somebody who wants to walk with you? For some reason, when it comes to this conversation, it’s like we forget how we act normally around other people and think that it’s something totally different.

Daniel Markin:
I appreciate that insight there. Any other final comments on this discussion? As people have been reaching out to you and your organization, what are some of the things that you like to leave people with as we try and reach out to our gay neighbour, as well?

Preston Sprinkle:
I hesitate giving advice because I often say my Canadian friends are five, 10 years ahead of where we’re at as a country, so I would almost be tempted to flip it around. Can you Canadians help us because you guys are further down the cultural road than we are?
But, in general, I would say silence just isn’t an option, meaning no longer is this just some fringe discussion that you can avoid. If you’re a Christian who’s serious about their faith, who is leading others in some capacity, you’ve got to read a few books on this topic. You’ve got to get your mind around it.
Questions related to faith, sexuality and gender are among the most pressing ethical questions facing the Western church today. Silence isn’t an option. Maybe 10 years ago you could avoid it. There’s always other things I’m going to feel. But now, I don’t want to say every Christian, but almost every Christian should feel the urgency to become somewhat informed of this conversation.
Also, in that, while the LGB conversation might be new to some Christians, that ship has sailed for a lot of people. I think we really need to understand the T aspect of this conversation, the gender conversation, the transgender, non-binary, gender-fluid, genderqueer, the list goes on. I think that the question surrounding gender or even who we are as humans, those are kind of front and centre right now. So let’s make sure we don’t only spend our energy on the same-sex conversation. Let’s make sure we understand the transgender-related conversation as well.

Daniel Markin:
I think you’re right, just to tie a bow on this, the idea of having a good understanding, I would encourage our listeners to start reading books on marriage. Maybe dust off a theology textbook and see what were early writers like. What is the purpose of marriage? What is the symbolism of marriage is maybe a good place to start as we branch out of here.

Preston Sprinkle:
Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel Markin:
Well, Preston, thank you for your time.

Preston Sprinkle:
Yeah.

Daniel Markin:
And we appreciated having you on.

Preston Sprinkle:
Thank you. Thanks for having me on. Appreciate it.

Kourtney Cromwell:
Like I said at the beginning of this episode, I hope that this conversation was able to give you some more insight into this subject, and that it helps you as you go about your day-to-day in our cultural climate.
And it was such a good opportunity to have Preston join us and really get into what it should look like to not just think about this issue, but to engage with our neighbors who may be in the LGBTQ community.
If you have any questions, you can reach out to us, or you can go to Preston’s website www.prestonsprinkle.com. And you could also take a look at his ministry, Center for Faith, Sexuality and Gender. And for more information you can check it out at centerforfaith.com. This has been a really great time to focus on our LGBTQ neighbours and how we can respond with truth and love from a biblical standpoint. I hope that you join us again next week as Preston is with us for a second time, continuing the conversation on some important topics that we’re facing in our culture, like polyamory, and the discussion surrounding the relationship between sex and technology and how we, as Christians, should be thinking about that specific subject.

Kourtney Cromwell:
Thanks so much for listening. If you want to hear more, subscribe on iTunes and Spotify or visit us online at indoubt.ca or indoubt.com. We’re also on social media so make sure to follow us on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter.