Ep. 246: The Transformational Power of Forgiveness

Daniel Markin:

Hey, welcome back to indoubt. My name is Daniel and today I’m joined again by Erin Ford. How are you doing Erin?

Erin Ford:

I’m good. Thank you so much for having me.

Daniel Markin:

You’re very welcome. It’s good to have you back on the program. Last time you were here, we had a discussion on forgiveness, and there are so many different ways we could have gone and so it made sense to actually bring you back and talk about forgiveness again. Forgive us for not having enough time the first time to talk about forgiveness. That’s deaf tone joke.

Daniel Markin:

Anyways, as we talk about forgiveness, one of the big things that you had started with was you in your relationship with your father and having to forgive your dad for the years of mental, and emotional, and psychological abuse. For our audience who might not have heard the last time, could you please just explain a little bit about that story and what some of that abuse looked like?

Erin Ford:

Yeah, sure. So my dad was… Primary issue was that he was addicted to alcohol and he was a very bitter, and angry, and controlling person. He also had some probably undiagnosed mental health issues. I actually think that he has FASD, which is Fetal Alcohol Syndrome Disorder. So basically, I grew up seeing him every other weekend and definitely through phone calls and in person visits a lot of controlling, a lot of manipulation, a lot of intimidation, and a lot of anger, and just a lot of really inappropriate behavior.

Erin Ford:

It continued to get worse as I grew older and cumulated. When I was 16, he threatened to kill my family with a machine gun on a phone call, and that was the final straw that ended the relationship with him for me. And then probably since then, I’ve been just been on a journey of healing, and growth, and learning, and seeing the Lord do a lot of restoration in my own heart, in my own life.

Erin Ford:

I haven’t restored a relationship with him. God’s been helping me forgive him on my own with the Lord, but there has not been a restored relationship with my dad. I haven’t seen or talk to him since then. What I’ve heard about my dad from others who have seen him or interacted, he has not changed, he’s still the same and/if or worse. And so, it doesn’t feel like a very safe opportunity to try to reach out to him or have a relationship, so I’ve chosen not to at this point. So that’s the backstory of where I’m at and how far I’ve come.

Daniel Markin:

Can I ask when’s the last time you saw him?

Erin Ford:

Yeah. I was 16.

Daniel Markin:

The last time… You were 16?

Erin Ford:

Yeah. And I’m 29.

Daniel Markin:

Okay.

Erin Ford:

When I was 26, I was like, “Oh my gosh, it was 10 years.” God did so many things in my life, dramatically in the last, what is it now? 13 years. I’m terrible at math. Yeah, 13 years. So it’s been a long time, but it’s interesting how the impact of those experiences you carry with you in different ways. And so, I’ve spent probably half of my life in counseling. I’ve been to regular counselors, I’ve been to Christian counselors, I’ve done Biblical counseling, I’ve done trauma therapy. It’s all been really helpful and useful. So that’s where I’m at now.

Daniel Markin:

That’s great. And I think oftentimes as Christians, we can look down on counseling or look down on therapy because we’ll say, “Oh, you should have a strong enough faith to be able to get through stuff.” But I think that-

Erin Ford:

[crosstalk 00:04:02] that’s the biggest lie from Satan.

Daniel Markin:

I think that’s just a really poor way of looking at it. Counseling, therapy, these are amazing tools that we can use. It shouldn’t be the only thing.

Erin Ford:

Totally.

Daniel Markin:

But it’s like, wow, why not be able to share that and meet with professionals to help you through that stuff?

Erin Ford:

Totally. I did trauma therapy, not for a long time, but I actually did EMDR, which is Eye Movement Destabilization and Reprocessing. It’s actually rewiring your brain so that when you-

Daniel Markin:

Interesting.

Erin Ford:

… have these traumatic experiences that your body doesn’t respond in high stress, and high panic, and fight or flight. And so you can actually physically feel neutral when you think about these experiences. That has helped me tremendously when things come up that are triggering or stressful-related to my childhood experiences so that I’m able to function well and not go bananas when it happens, so that’s been really helpful as well.

Daniel Markin:

And what’s that called? That’s called-

Erin Ford:

EMDR.

Daniel Markin:

EMDR. Interesting.

Erin Ford:

It’s one form of trauma therapy. There’s many, but it’s basically rewiring your brain so that your body is at a state of calm when you mentally and emotionally bring up those memories from your past, so that they don’t… I’m not a scientist, and there’s a lot of science into this, but the connection between our brain, our hearts, our bodies, our psychology.

Erin Ford:

My personal belief is that all of that is part of common grace from the Lord, that we can use that to find healing in so many different levels and ways that… Just even regular counseling, so helpful. I think everyone should go see a counselor, at least once in their lifetime. We all need help working through hard relationships, our own sin, different challenges. And so, that’s been a tremendous tool for me. I’m still thankful I’m pro-counseling for sure.

Daniel Markin:

Totally. Well, I appreciate that, and that’s super interesting. Oh my goodness, I would do a whole podcast on that eye movement thing, that’s crazy.

Erin Ford:

I know.

Daniel Markin:

But we should get back to forgiveness. I want to continue because you’ve prepared three different truths of forgiveness that you want to share with us. But before you do, I want to ask you that as you’ve written on this, as you spoken on this, I know you wrote an article on The Gospel Coalition Canada, but what has been the most surprising thing you’ve encountered, and what’s been the most frustrating thing you’ve encountered as you’ve spoken on forgiveness?

Erin Ford:

Ooh, that’s a good question. I was unprepared for this one. I think surprising is how freeing it can be. Honestly, how freeing forgiveness can be when someone comes to you and asks for forgiveness, even if you’re totally unaware of what’s happened, and taking it seriously and saying to that person, I forgive you, those words hold so much power.

Erin Ford:

I think it’s so important that when someone comes to us and ask for forgiveness, first of all, is a huge step of faith on their part. They didn’t have to. That’s them coming and either confessing sin, or seeking to reconcile, or make things right between them and the Lord. It’s really powerful.

Erin Ford:

So I personally don’t think that we should ever respond to somebody by saying, “Oh, it didn’t matter, don’t worry about it,” or “it’s not a big deal,” because that’s minimizing and that’s not forgiveness. We don’t want to ever minimize how someone feels or the impact of what they’ve done, even if we haven’t felt it personally. But I think that when you say those words, I forgive you, it can be incredibly freeing almost like this weight lifts off your shoulders.

Erin Ford:

And I’ve experienced that in tons of different relationships. I’m in ministry and ministry is full of conflict, because you’re just working with people and there’s lots of sin, there’s lots of personality differences. And so, working through conflict, forgiving others has been freeing, and then maybe something that’s been surprising is how often you have to do it. You have to forgive people all the time.

Erin Ford:

I’m newly married and there’s tons of forgiveness that’s involved every day when you hurt people, either intentionally or unintentionally. It’s something that is just a part of our walk as humans, but also as Christians, especially. So it can grow exhausting when you’re like, “Oh, I have to do this again,” or whatever, but it’s important. There’s so much in our hearts when we enter that forgiveness process.

Daniel Markin:

What’s the most frustrating side of that then?

Erin Ford:

I think it’s frustrating when a person doesn’t want to forgive you. When they hold feelings of bitterness, or resentment, it’s called emotional stonewalling where they just cut you out. I think that’s really frustrating. You can’t make someone forgive you. It’s really out of your control. And so, when you’ve been hurt, you need to surrender that to the Lord. You also need to surrender the pain sometimes of that relational brokenness, when that other person is having a hard time forgiving you, doesn’t want to, or just can’t restore the relationship and that can be really painful. So that can be frustrating.

Daniel Markin:

Definitely. Well, let’s begin then with these three truths of forgiveness. Hit us with first two.

Erin Ford:

These are three that I’ve come up with as I’ve walked my own journey, obviously there’s more than three. But I think ultimately when we forgive, it actually brings compassion for the person who has hurt us, and I think compassion and empathy are so life changing and so important to understanding who we are as people, and even just giving a different lens on the person who has actually maybe potentially abused us or hurt us in some way.

Erin Ford:

And so, this is just a hard change that only the spirit of God can do. As we walk forward in forgiveness though, compassion really is a natural byproduct. So I think ultimately we need to forgive the specific actions that people have committed against us, which helps us separate their behavior from who they are as people.

Erin Ford:

I can forgive my dad’s actions of things he said or things he’s done. I’m not forgiving his identity as a person. He was created in the image of God, he is broken and sinful. I don’t need to forgive that, but I need to forgive the words he said or the things that he’s done. And that’s really helped me understand he’s a deeply broken person, but he’s also created in God’s image as am I, and I’m also deeply broken.

Erin Ford:

And so, I think that helps me have compassion towards him and see him in a different lens instead of just viewing myself as only the victim and him as the abuser, because I’m not always the victim. I’m not always the victim in every situation and every relationship, I’ve also done things that have hurt others. And so, that helps me have compassion and ultimately they need to turn to the Lord in repentance and receive that full washing, and renewal, and cleansing because of Jesus’ blood shed on the cross for them.

Erin Ford:

I can’t offer what the cross offers, but me forgiving others can demonstrate God’s grace and point them towards the father. So I just feel like the compassion part is so powerful because it gives us a new lens on the situation sometimes and helps us just view them differently, which can ultimately change how we feel as well.

Daniel Markin:

Totally. And I would add that it brings a humility to the situation too, because you’re forced to realize that, “Oh, wow.” As I’ve studied, as I’ve gotten more acquainted with [Buffon 00:12:35] theology, understanding that all of humanity is broken, all of humanity is depraved. Begin to realize that the sin that this person committed against me, no wonder they did this, we live in a broken world and I’m just as equally guilty of doing things like that at different times in different ways, sometimes bigger, sometimes smaller.

Daniel Markin:

My point here is we shouldn’t be surprised. And taking the golden rule, treat others as you would want to be treated. I think that compassion piece is listen, when I screw up, when I’m going to need to go to someone for forgiveness, I want them to extend and accept that, extend forgiveness to me in the same way that I would hope… I should be doing that to them as I would hope they would be extending forgiveness to me. Understanding that as a baseline, we’re all broken, we’re all trying to do our best and going through the grace of Christ that we’re able to even do any sort of forgiving, and make good, and meaning, and purpose to our lives. And we forget the goodness of God at times.

Erin Ford:

What’s good though is that even with compassion and empathy, there’s still that tension in space for those hurt feelings. It doesn’t minimize the fact that those hurt feelings are still there. It’s a reality, and sometimes that relationship maybe needs some space for a while.

Erin Ford:

My dad’s story was he was actually adopted. As a baby, he was abandoned from his birth mother and he was adopted by an immigrant family. And his whole life, he had this view of himself that he was unwanted and it totally shaped his identity formation and who he became as an adult. And it doesn’t minimize what he did, it doesn’t make it okay, but it helps me understand he was tormented and troubled years before I was born.

Daniel Markin:

And he carried that with him and it bled into your life.

Erin Ford:

Totally.

Daniel Markin:

And again, it makes you understand. You’re like, “I get it.” And here’s this broken world. Compassion.

Erin Ford:

And he still had choices. He still made terrible choices, but really, apart from the grace of God, there’s a good chance that I could have made similar choices. In the relationships that I’m in now, we see these patterns and families just repeat and repeat. And I think what’s so powerful about the gospel is that it can actually break those patterns and start new legacies.

Erin Ford:

The compassion piece is super important. So I would say that when we forgive it actually helps us feel compassionate, empathetic towards those who have hurt us, which is really transforming. And that’s evidence of the Holy Spirit at work in our lives, which is encouraging. We can celebrate that. This is hard, but hey, the Holy Spirit is present at work and God has not abandoned me.

Daniel Markin:

Definitely.

Erin Ford:

I think that second part of forgiveness that is really foundational for me is that we can actually forgive without being restored on earth, but also with the hope that God will restore all things in eternity. Especially with conflict or brokenness between two believers, on earth, you may never be best friends, or you may never work well together, or that relationship might need space for a really long time, but hey, we know that in eternity we’re going to be fully united in Christ in heaven. There’s not going to be any sin, there’s not going to be any brokenness, no tears, and we will be restored.

Erin Ford:

And I think that there’s a lot to celebrate and feel hopeful about. And also just believing that you can also forgive people even when they haven’t asked for it. In my experience with my dad, he never asked for forgiveness. He would probably never admit that anything that he did was wrong. And I think that that’s powerful too, because actually forgiveness then for me is really something between me and the Lord, it’s really about my heart. When I don’t forgive others, it doesn’t really impact the other person, it just ruins me. The anger that I carry, the burdens that I carry ruins my own heart.

Erin Ford:

And so, it’s actually a freeing thing that forgiveness doesn’t equal relational restoration. Because more often we think of forgiveness, it’s like, “Oh, I have to be friends with that person again,” or “I have to like talk to them or their family member, and oh my gosh, we have to spend Christmas together.” Well, you don’t actually. You can have boundaries there that can actually help you. But forgiveness is very different. We’re extending grace to the person that’s harmed us, and it’s grace because we extend forgiveness if they deserve it or not, even if they don’t deserve it.

Daniel Markin:

The way I try to think about it too is I hope that I will be able to forgive someone so that when I see them at church, even if it’s a short conversation, we know, hey, things are good between us even if we’re not friends anymore, best friends, or not really integrated in each other’s lives. It’s like hey, we’re still brothers and sisters in Christ. And that’s part of our story, and that’s part of some of that history, but it points to the… Go ahead.

Erin Ford:

I was going to say acknowledgement is so powerful. When you’ve had conflict resolution, or you’ve extended forgiveness, and even if that relationship isn’t restored, I’ve had that experience where someone forgave me or whatever, I forgave them, it was back and forth really. But I saw them at an event and they looked me in the eye, said, hi, were nice to me, acknowledged me. Because you feel shame or you feel uncomfortable and awkward like, “Oh, cringey, I don’t want to see that person because we had this conflict or this past pain.”

Erin Ford:

But acknowledging someone is a demonstration that you actually have forgiven them, because it’s like, “Oh, I’m going to treat you with respect, I’m going to say hi, I’m not going to make you feel uncomfortable in my presence.” But that doesn’t mean we have to be best friends, and we’re not going to go to each other’s houses, but that acknowledgement piece is really important.

Erin Ford:

And I think it’s possible to forgive without restoration, because restoration really is that relationship is being brought back or restored to what it was like before that sin was committed. In relationships, full restoration is totally possible, but it’s not always possible or wise. With my dad, he has not shown any signs of change, or life change, or whatever. So why would I go back to that? To be treated the way that he was treating me, it was so unhealthy and harmful.

Erin Ford:

But I think that it’s possible to forgive without restoration. I think it’s important too, it’s commanded in scripture where God actually says that we must forgive others. And I think for God, he’s so different from us that when he forgives us, that relationship is restored. Forgiveness and restoration go together. But for humans it’s not always possible, but in eternity it will be like that. It’s complicated, but it’s-

Daniel Markin:

And the act of forgiveness it’s the beginning pieces of what will be in heaven. What I mean by that is in heaven, all of the relationships will be restored, everything’s going to be the new heavens new creation. And by us accepting forgiveness in this life is actually displaying the gospel, not in a full form, but even a small way it’s displaying the gospel in that way. What would you say is the third piece of forgiveness, the third truth?

Erin Ford:

It’s my favorite. Only the cross brings healing for the abused. I think the cross is hope for both the abuser and the abused. Often when we think of the cross, we think that, “Well, I come to the cross to be forgiven from the sin that I’ve committed against God and others.” That is fully true. We see that everywhere in scripture. But also, we also come to the cross to be healed from the sin committed against us.

Erin Ford:

So there’s two parts. There’s a forgiveness piece from the Lord, where we are restored in relationship to him because of our sin, but then also we are healed from the pain and the hurt that we have taken on from other sin.

Erin Ford:

And so, first Peter chapter two, he’s talking about suffering unjustly. And so, how Christ leaves an example so that we can follow in his footsteps. And so, it says in verses 21 to 24, “For to this you have been called because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example so that you might follow in his steps. He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth. When he was reviled, he did not revile in return. When he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued in trusting himself to him who judges justly, he himself for our sins in his body, on the tree that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.”

Erin Ford:

That last sentence, by his wounds you have been healed, if I ever got a tattoo, I would get that tattooed on my body. I don’t think I’ll ever get a tattoo, but it is so powerful. Only by Jesus’ wounds on the cross can I be healed fully, both from the sin that I’ve committed and the sin committed unjustly against me.

Erin Ford:

It says that Jesus entrusted himself to him who judges justly. That’s God the father. God the father is the one that judges perfectly justly. He’s the one that an enacts vengeance. He entrusted himself, he surrendered himself. Even when he was suffering unjust abuse and harm, he entrusted himself to the Lord. And ultimately, by Jesus’ wounds alone, we can be healed.

Erin Ford:

And so, the cross brings healing for both the abuser and the abused. And it is so hopeful. It doesn’t mean that we have to seek out unjust suffering. We don’t need to willingly place ourselves in the path of hurt just so that we can be called the gracious thing. But when we suffer unjustly, Peter invites us to follow Jesus’ example on the cross, which is hard and humbling. It’s not easy, but it’s also a beautiful thing, and that God promises to restore all things in eternity. He gives us healing on earth and also in eternity and we can entrust it all to him. And I just love that.

Daniel Markin:

Well, and just to add one piece onto that is, literally as he’s suffering on the cross, he’s forgiving his enemies. On the cross, Jesus says, “Father, forgive them. They know not what they do.” You don’t see a better picture of what it looks like.

Erin Ford:

That’s compassion.

Daniel Markin:

Compassion, grace, you don’t see a better view or a picture of what it means to forgive someone than Christ dying, being murdered on the cross and forgiving his murderers. That is a powerful piece. Erin, as we’re coming to the end of this program, we’re running over the time here, I just want to ask you a couple things about how you’ve experienced God’s love through your story and through your life. And if you could explain, I have a couple of words here and I want you to just… How have you experienced God’s love, and how has God demonstrated his love through his kindness, his justice, his wrath, and his mercy?

Erin Ford:

God has been so kind to me, I would say, providing the church… I grew up with a horribly broken father who was not able to love me as he should have and treated me horribly. However, God has provided so many father figures over the years of my life. And I think that the church can provide… There’s so much grace. When we don’t have the kind of family that we really should, God through his people can provide those relationships in other ways. That’s just God’s kindness to me. I’m so thankful for that.

Erin Ford:

His justice, obviously Jesus dying on the cross on my behalf is justice, in that I should have to pay the consequences for my own sin, but Jesus payed for them instead. So that’s huge. But also seeking to pursue justice on earth in speaking up using my voice, speaking out when something’s not right, putting boundaries, saying, “No, you actually can’t treat me that way. That’s inappropriate.”

Erin Ford:

There’s a tension there between using our voice, but then also sometimes interesting things to the Lord and letting him fight for you on your behalf, that’s been a theme for me this summer. But also God’s wrath. His wrath is perfectly met through Jesus on the cross. I don’t need to fear his wrath, also feel humbled that God’s wrath is a real thing that can be enacted on others, that makes me want to actually share my faith with others and help them know God too.

Erin Ford:

I don’t want anybody to be the subject of God’s wrath except for Satan and demons really, they’re fully evil and I know they will be destroyed one day. I think mercy is you don’t get the things you deserve. Grace is you get what you deserve and mercy is you don’t get what you do deserve.

Daniel Markin:

Not getting what you do deserve is mercy. And then grace is getting something good when you don’t deserve it.

Erin Ford:

Mercy, I would say there have been lots of broken relationships in my life because of me, because of how I treated others when I was younger, acting out, bullying, intimidation. And I would say that God was really merciful with me in helping me know him, discover him, follow him, because of my actions, I deserved so much worse, but he really provided in a way that I never imagined. I’m so thankful. I get to serve him in ministry, I’m newly married, I have a dog, which is so fun.

Erin Ford:

But God has really blessed me. He’s also brought a lot of healing and restoration in my family in other ways apart from my dad. So I’m just really thankful for that. And I never thought that would actually happen by the way, but that’s been a huge miracle in my family in the last few years. So I’m super thankful. I would say I’ve seen God demonstrate his love in those different ways.

Daniel Markin:

Totally. I’ll throw another theological one at you. God’s aseity, the idea that God alone is self-sustaining self-existent. For me, I can’t comprehend that. And that to me, we’ve talked about giving all things to God that we release everything to him. He doesn’t need anything from us, he is perfectly complete and he’s always been there, he always will be. And for me, I’d love to hear what you think, but that brings a lot of peace that he’s seen it all, and my calamities, I can still bring to him, and it’s nothing new.

Erin Ford:

Totally. That reminds me of God’s sovereignty, which is related, but God always being in control. Sometimes I can feel frustrated with God. “Oh, why did you let this really hard thing happen?” I just don’t understand. And that’s normal to feel that way. But I think of Job, and I think of Joseph. The story of Joseph is probably one of my favorite in the Bible.

Erin Ford:

I love the end of Genesis where Joseph says, “You did these things with intention for harm, but God used it for good.” When I think of God, self-sustaining, self-existence, he’s fully in control. He knows what’s going to happen in the future, he knows what’s happened in the past, and he works all things together for the good, for those who love him and are called according to his purpose.

Erin Ford:

It doesn’t mean that it doesn’t still hurt and it’s not hard, but the fact that he is just so much bigger than I can comprehend. I just have no idea how he’s using these things. And ultimately, what I love is I also love, I think it’s second Corinthians at the beginning where Paul says that, “We are to comfort others with the comfort that we ourselves have received from God.” And ultimately this is an opportunity to receive comfort from God and also comfort others from what God has given us. And so, he’s fully in control. We can trust all things to him and he is worth following.

Daniel Markin:

Definitely. Well, Erin, thank you for your time, thank you for being on the program. We look forward to having you back again-

Erin Ford:

Thank you so much.

Daniel Markin:

… and maybe we’ll talk about the rapid eye movement stuff too.

Erin Ford:

Yes.

Daniel Markin:

[crosstalk 00:31:16] podcast.

Erin Ford:

Okay, cool.

Daniel Markin:

All right.

Erin Ford:

Thank you.

Daniel Markin:

Thanks again.

Erin Ford:

Bye.

Daniel Markin:

Bye.