Ep. 248: The Reliable Word

Isaac Dagneau:

Hey, welcome to indoubt. My name is Isaac. I’m one of the hosts of the show as well as the pastor at North Valley Baptist Church in Mission, British Columbia. With me on the show today is Andrea Thom. Andrea is a wife, a mother, therapist, and author. So it’s great to have you on the show with us today, Andrea.

Andrea Thom:

Thank you so much for having me. I’m thrilled to be with you guys.

Isaac Dagneau:

Obviously this isn’t a video podcast, just audio one. So people are only hearing your voice. So I’m just wondering if you could sort of put some personality, some flesh to your voice in a sense by sharing with us just how you came to know Jesus and also just kind of what your day-to-day life looks like right now.

Andrea Thom:

Sure. Well, I actually did grow up in the church. I did grow up in a Christian home and I accepted Christ when I was really little. I asked him into my heart. I actually asked him in several times to make sure he was in there. So I had a bit of a confused understanding in those early years, but when I was at tween more, I started to understand concepts like the holiness of God and the depravity of my sin and repentance, and the cost and surrender that comes with discipleship.

Andrea Thom:

So it was a much more deep and rich understanding of who God was at that time. And so that’s when my faith really started to take root and I started to grow much more deeply in Christ. Through my life, I’ve really seen him meet me in so many different ways as I’ve explored at different parts of the Christian faith. In high school, I started to doubt, “Well, is Christianity true?” Because this really is all I’ve heard about.

Andrea Thom:

So I started to explore other religions and did come by God’s goodness to the conclusion that Jesus was in fact the way, the truth and the life. And then when I went to university, I saw all kinds of Christians from different backgrounds. Well, now what denomination I am? What are some of the differences there? So I started to explore some of those greater nuances, but from that time up until now, I’m married. I have three kids. I have one boy in high school and two in elementary school. Three of us are actually here in the house in different locations right now, podcasting in different ways, Zooming in different ways.

Andrea Thom:

And I’ve become very passionate about evangelism so that other people would know the saving grace of God as well. And very passionate about discipleship. The Word of God has impacted my life so deeply through Christ and it’s just my heart for other people to know that power as well. So I’ve become launched on a journey in the last few years of more writing and speaking to those kinds of ends as well.

Isaac Dagneau:

Yeah, that’s awesome. Thanks for sharing that with us. It’s so good to hear. So hopefully as a listener right now, you’re able to just kind of grasp a little bit more about who the voice is behind our conversation today as we dig in. And we’ll make sure it by the end of this conversation as well to let you know how you can hear more of the resources and different things, writings that Andrea has produced for you to benefit from.

Isaac Dagneau:

So anyways, we’re going to spend some time in this conversation just talking particularly about women and their engagement with the Bible. But at that point, when I just say that if there’s any male listeners, even though the focus will be on women, I mean, everyone can, and I trust will benefit obviously from this discussion. Because there will be overlap, absolutely.

Isaac Dagneau:

So maybe to begin Andrea and they could ask it, what is the general sort of landscape of women’s engagement with the Bible in Canada? I don’t know how specific we can get. Maybe North America. I’m not sure, but yeah. And then how do the cultural trends just the surrounding us as well about the Bible influence how women think about the Bible? So yeah, kind of flesh those out for us.

Andrea Thom:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Well, of course different women are going to be coming at things from different angles and different backgrounds. But one thing that I think of as you asked that question is I went to a Christian writers conference about seven years or so ago in Canada. And I came in contact with a lot of agents and publishers of writing. And they told me individually as well as collectively to the group of people that were there, that theology, this would be the publishing house representatives I’d be talking to was really low sales for their publishing house and in particular women’s theology.

Andrea Thom:

And I was really disappointed to hear that. And that was a repeating kind of concept. So when I was telling them that I was writing an old Testament Bible study series focusing for women, their heads just kind of tilted. “I mean, why would you ever do that? You’re not going to sell.” And they weren’t trying to be discouraging. They were just trying to be honest that this is what’s happening right now, but that really didn’t discourage me. It actually motivated me because I know how the power of God’s Word has impacted me so significantly. And so clearly we need to do some work here.

Andrea Thom:

So that was actually something that actually motivated me even further to dive into what I was planning to do. I think that when you look at trends, they often kind of correspond to what we see social media doing right now tend to be a lot of devotionals, a lot of soundbites, Christian soundbites that kind of encourage you for the moment, but don’t necessarily train you for the marathon. Scriptures that don’t necessarily come packaged in an understanding of the full narrative of scripture from Genesis to Revelation. And the bigger story beyond that immediate encouragement that you can get over some kind of social media platform soundbite.

Andrea Thom:

And oftentimes too, I find people tend to go those things that really focus on me. I’ve got some kind of a need, some kind of a wound that’s gaping right now. And so I need something that’s going to help fix that immediately, but really it tends to veer away more so from who is God? Who am I before God? How does knowing God and who I am before him change my worship before him and my understanding that it’s not all about me?

Andrea Thom:

And yet I do know that God wants to meet me where I’m at. So it’s not that it’s wrong what we’re seeing necessarily, but sometimes it’s just the emphasis of what we’re not seeing that can really send us adrift.

Isaac Dagneau:

Yeah, no, that’s really helpful. And just thinking about that, I think it’s obvious and maybe we have to say it over and over again because it’s important to remember. But yeah, we do live in that me-centered culture. And I automatically think of the company called the Source originally RadioShack and just plastered on the side of their store is just, I want that. And I don’t know if that’s their new slogan, but it always just strikes me as just like … I don’t know. That does not intrigue me to go in there at all because I’m just like … I want that.

Isaac Dagneau:

It just has that selfishness kind of attached to it. But it’s interesting as you say that, because obviously we know that the Bible is not ultimately about us, even though it’s given to us and benefits us greatly. It is about God. It is about his glory. And I think it’s so important. Because I think you and I would both agree that the greatest aspect of God’s glory is the gospel. That is the greatest presentation of his glory manifested. And that’s also for our joy. It’s also for our satisfaction, our pleasure.

Isaac Dagneau:

So there’s that harmony that comes together with our greatest joy and his greatest glory meeting. When you talk about that, it’s encouraging. It’d be good for us just to really challenge young adults, particularly women to see that yes, your greatest satisfaction and your greatest joy is harmonized with God’s greatest glory and we need to read the Bible with that. It’s not just about you, it’s about God, you and God in a sense in some ways. Would you agree with that?

Andrea Thom:

Yes, absolutely. It actually made me think of a Piper quote. I’m just paraphrasing. It’s not going to be verbatim, but it’s basically, “I am most satisfied when I am most delighting in him.” I’m more fully satisfied when I’m delighting in him. So it’s just as you say, that as you grow in Jesus, you’re delighting in him more. You want to bring him glory more.

Andrea Thom:

So as much as that might sound counterintuitive to what your desires might be, well, I don’t want to glorify someone else. I kind of do want what I want. As we continue on in the Christian faith, we see that thirst for him and to display him growing as we grow in him.

Isaac Dagneau:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s so good. Now, Andrea, in a moment, we’re going to look at some of the reasons for why we can be confident in the Bible’s reliability. But even before that, if there’s no point in how the Bible really affects us, then there’s not really a point to talk about its reliability. Because who cares, right? So maybe the question would be, what is the point? What is the purpose for a Christian woman’s engagement with the Bible?

Isaac Dagneau:

And that might sound silly to some, maybe some that are listening that are a little bit more mature in their faith, but I think for a vast majority, it’s important to just come back to that. Yeah, what is that purpose for why a Christian woman should be engaging with the word? Why is it so critical?

Andrea Thom:

My daughter she’s reading right now as series. It’s a Christian biography series of different missionaries and it’s really fascinating to hear all about their lives, all about their details. And you’re inspired to be a better person and to go out passionately like they do. But one thing that you don’t come away with after reading those books is actually meeting them. You don’t actually meet those characters.

Andrea Thom:

Whereas with the Word of God, when we engage with it, He is living and active to meet us there. So we do know about God and learn about that. We do know about the life and work of Jesus. We do hear and discover more about ourselves, but we actually meet Him. He is there to be alive and connect with us to transform us through rebuking us and correcting us and encouraging us and trading our lives towards godliness.

Andrea Thom:

So to not engage with the word is to not engage with Him. So we might need to ask ourselves, “Well, if we’re not engaging with the word, if that’s not what we’re motivated to do, what is the disconnect there?” Do we understand the authority of His Word and the power of how He really did carry along these human authors to give us a message to connect with us in a way that is personal and meaningful. But yeah, I mean, ultimately as Christians, we want to know God and then we’re compelled out to make Him known. That is what it’s all about.

Isaac Dagneau:

Yeah. And that’s such a good point. As I think about that, it’s so easy for us to separate who God is from His Word. Right?

Andrea Thom:

Yeah.

Isaac Dagneau:

And I think for a lot of us, we seek to … I don’t know if this is a lie from the enemy, it probably is. It’s like you can have a relationship with God apart from a discipline engagement with, with His Word. And we see that today in our culture too, not even just with Christians, but just with sort of new ageism spirituality, this seeking to engage God without actually doing the disciplined and hard work of like actually engaging His Word. So I think it’s so important that you bring up a great point that his speaking is who He is. That is Him. So we need to do that.

Isaac Dagneau:

So yeah, that’s so good. So recognizing that, I mean very valid and probably one of the most important points of engagement with the Bible that you engage with the Bible because you want to engage with God. Yeah. Let’s talk about the reliability of the Bible, especially in an age today where there’s lots of young people that go to university and within the first week, professors might speak rhetorically in such a way that totally discounts all religions or Christianity specifically and young adults faith seems shattered in those moments.

Isaac Dagneau:

So could you just give us maybe a brief understanding? These are different questions about the reliability, the Bible. So firstly, how did we get our Bible? I think that’s an important question a lot of us don’t even think about. So yeah. How did we get our Bible?

Andrea Thom:

Yeah, well, that’s a potentially very humongous question, but just very, very briefly. I mean, we can probably say that with the Old Testament, it was probably established as a reliable connection by the time of Jesus for sure. And there’s lots of historical documents that are secular, that would actually confirm that those writings were kind of established by that time. If you’re talking about the New Testament, that was probably established as a collection by the late 2nd century at the latest, but for sure, it seems by the 4th century.

Andrea Thom:

And again, there’s lots of historical writings from different people that would affirm that. There was a gentleman named F.F. Bruce as well as some other writers and scholars. And he said, the Old and New Testament, so they probably came together as a collection in a much more of an organic process than we might’ve thought that if you look at the New Testament itself, the manuscripts were just being copied and replicated and duplicated. And by the time the church fathers came around, it was more just affirming what was already there, but did they have some criteria? Yes, they did.

Andrea Thom:

I actually was looking at some work by Bomberg and he gave a few criteria by which they would have maybe pulled them together by. Very quickly, one would be just their apostolic nature. So the New Testament in particular, was it actually authored by these books, by the apostles or at least a close associate? What was the orthodoxy of these books? Meaning did they carry along the Israelite storyline from the Old Testament? Were they consistent with the apostolic teachings of the New. And then he also talked about how widely they were received in the churches.

Andrea Thom:

So there would have been these rogue groups that would have said, “I have a secret teaching of Jesus.” And it would have not been consistent with the rest of it and really not widely received, just kind of over there somewhere. So they would have thought that doesn’t seem consistent with what we’re going with. We’ll look at what was adopted by the larger church.

Andrea Thom:

And one thing that Kruger actually had said too is he says, well, they were also looking at whether they were inspired or not. Kind of meaning where they actually as they were being read, used to mature and edify believers in a way that you could actually see that they were genuinely transforming lives. And not just a book that was going back up on the shelf after you read it kind of thing. So that just kind of gives you a gist of maybe some of the things that would answer that question.

Isaac Dagneau:

Yeah, absolutely. As a listener, Andrea just touched on many points there. So any of those you could go online and she gave some authors was well F.F. Bruce and Bomberg and some others as well. You can dig obviously more into those things they said. But one of the things Andrea that I think is important that you said was just the organic nature of how it came together. And I think in a world today where so many young adults valued kind of authenticity and they value the organic nature of things. I think that’s important realities to know that’s kind of in many ways how the New Testament manuscripts were or New Testament collection of books were kind of put together. I think it can be easy.

Isaac Dagneau:

I remember in Bible college learning, it was 327 AD that Council of Carthage that the books they’re established and then in Bible college it was like, “Okay, cool. I know that now.” But then when you think about it, it’s like, well, it kind of makes it seem like, okay, they all got together and they just put all the books up on a stand, they judged which ones were to be in. And that can sort of make people think, “Well, was it just man’s decision which books went in?” But like you said, I think there was there and there was, it’s not I think.

Isaac Dagneau:

There was a really organic nature that there was these collections that they started springing up without even in a council room or a judge room. It was a courtroom. It was just, this is what the books were. These are the Holy Spirit-inspired books that were actually, like you said, maturing people and causing people to grow closer to Jesus. So that-

Andrea Thom:

And in scripture too. The New Testament, you see how even some cite scripture. So I think it’s 1 Timothy 5 actually it’s Luke 10 or something like that as being scripture. So you’ve got scripture very, very early authenticating itself in that organic process that you’re talking about.

Isaac Dagneau:

Yeah. Exactly. And that’s so that’s so cool. So maybe another question we could ask is how do we know that these books are reliable? I guess there’s different ways that you could take the reliability aspect of it. But for instance like the gospels, how do we know that these are sources that we can trust?

Andrea Thom:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Well, some of the common things that you might hear is if you take the gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, you’ve got these four eyewitness accounts. And so the argument might go, well, you’ve got four different people talking, four different styles, four different emphases that you may see within the same event. Or maybe the same event has things in it that actually appear contradictory between books or look at the large number of manuscripts that there are, you see copy errors. How can we trust that when you see so many manuscripts and see so many errors like that?

Andrea Thom:

So to those kinds of things when it comes to different authors, if we’re two different people writing about the same event, you are going to see different writing styles. And that just doesn’t indicate anything more than that. Variation in author style doesn’t mean contradiction of content. And you can be citing the same event, but you’re not necessarily emphasizing the same theological distinctive.

Andrea Thom:

I mean, maybe this author was being led by God to emphasize X, whereas the other one was being led to emphasize Y of the same event. And as far as contradictions, there’s very, very few. I think that Tim Keller said there’s maybe a couple that are tricky to get around. But when you see some of the contradictions, it might be something like Jesus’ ascension was from Bethany. That’s what one gospel might say. Whereas another one might say from the Mount of Olives. And so that looks like a clear contradiction until you do some digging and you realize that Bethany is on the southeastern slope of the Mount of Olives.

Andrea Thom:

So that actually is not a contradiction at all. It’s really just requires a little bit more commentary and understanding about what was going on there. And when it comes to those manuscripts, I actually think the volume of manuscripts of the gospels alone. There’s something like 20 times more manuscripts of the gospels than other surviving manuscripts of that time period, which really speaks to its reliability because scholars are able to look at that large array and to get as close as they can to the original content compared to if they only had a couple.

Andrea Thom:

And there are people like Bart Ehrman, he’s actually someone who would say it’s not reliable, but even he says that when you look at some of these errors that are in there as far as copy errors and typos. Not typos, but copiers and misspells. Any kind of things that seem off, they’re largely just that. They’re not major doctrinal discrepancies. That’s not what we’re looking at here.

Isaac Dagneau:

Yeah, no, that’s so good. I’m glad you were able to succinctly, capture some of the most, the biggest, maybe the claims against the reliability. And you’re able to kind of help just reshape them a little bit, because again, it’s so easy for someone like Bart Ehrman to you can read one paragraph of his boat such as misquoting Jesus or whatever. And because of the rhetoric in the way that he writes, it can be so easy for young people and even older people too to feel like everything shattered because we can’t trust the Bible anymore.

Isaac Dagneau:

I was doing some digging just recently about what are some of the major ideas about the Bible that cause it to be unreliable. And I couldn’t find too much, but one thing that popped up was the contradictions aspect. And I think that is a hangup for different skeptics and humanists as they engage the Bible is the contradictions. So if you’re listening right now and maybe you listen to different agnostic or atheist podcasts or YouTubers, and they bring up this aspect of the thousands of contradictions in the Bible, I’d encourage you to do what Andrea just said. Just do a little bit more digging and I trust And she trusts as well that you will find that many of these contradictions aren’t actually contradictions at all.

Isaac Dagneau:

And we have to remember too, that the Bible was written in a different context, different time with different, like you said, Andrea, different ways that we would write today. They’re not all chronological like we would want them to be. That’s so essential. I see that we’re already almost coming up to time. I’m going to skip some of these other ones on reliability, because I’d like to just get to one kind of last question here. Well, maybe two last questions.

Isaac Dagneau:

Maybe the first one would be, what should someone do if they do have doubts about the Bible’s reliability? So I’m just imagining a listener right now who maybe is starting. It’s September now so they’re starting their semester at university and maybe a professor has discounted the Bible. What should someone do if they feel like that’s being shaken a little bit in them?

Andrea Thom:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Well, I know maybe a question that’s almost sitting underneath this question is if you are going to find something in the Bible that you’re not particularly comfortable with, are you willing to submit to it beforehand? Right? And sometimes our doubts are not actually because you don’t understand the reliability, but it’s more, I’m not sure I like what it says and I’m having a difficult time with my heart. So that might be something to just think about as we move to scripture to answer some of these questions is, is my heart right before the Lord to submit to what it is that I find there?

Andrea Thom:

But as far as the doubts themselves, I think a lot of people can get really discouraged with the doubting. They see this gap in their knowledge and they quit, they give up, they see that there might be something different in someone else’s perspective and it causes them to kind of really despair. But I would just encourage people to be careful what resources you choose, but engage with resources who can help bridge the gap.

Andrea Thom:

It’s very normal to have questions. It’s okay that you question. None of us knows everything and we all have been matured and strengthened through the process of finding out answers to questions we don’t have. So first of all, maybe just normalizing that process. It doesn’t mean that your faith is going to shatter. It just means that you’re going to mature right now through this process. And also to really be careful about what kinds of resources you use. Because there’s a lot of people who claim to have a high view of scripture, but I’m not sure that they do necessarily. What does that mean high view of scripture?

Andrea Thom:

There’s a lot of scholars that we can trust because they sound really academic. And so we trust their confidence and their credentials more than their accuracy. So it’s really important to resource yourself through those questions, questioning time periods with resources that are high-quality and reliable like what you’re doing right now through this podcast and all kinds of other resources I’m sure you have on your site.

Isaac Dagneau:

Yeah, no, that’s so good. You would agree with me too, that with every book that’s written against the reliability of the Bible and every claim that’s made, God has raised up many profound theologians and scholars to counteract and to provide truth. And you’ve named some of them already. And maybe a good thing that we could do is just write some out for the listeners as well, put on our site for people that we can trust.

Isaac Dagneau:

So as we finish up here, maybe one last question, and maybe it’s a little bit more practical one. So what does it look like for a Christian woman then to be invested in the Word of God? And I thought about like, “Does it just look like reading it every day?” Or is there something more to it than just like … I just wouldn’t want a Christian woman to go away today thinking, “Well, I got to read the Bible more.” But what does it look like to really invest in the word?

Andrea Thom:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Well, I think maybe a first step is to just know that just take one step more than what you are right now. I’ve seen a lot of people stall, and I know what it’s like when I was younger in my faith too to really be discouraged. You hear about people who get up and read their Bible for two hours and pray for three. And so you say, “Okay, well, that’s what I want to do.” And you off you go and then not flop and then you feel so discouraged. So I think the first step is to just take that first step.

Andrea Thom:

If you’re not regularly praying, try to pray for five minutes every day perhaps at some point that’s quiet. If you’re not reading at all, just start. Don’t worry about being perfect or being like that holy mentor that is great that’s in your life, but just they got there by training that opposite discipline. So when we’re talking about engaging the word, it’s going to be something you grow in, not something that you just achieved because you’ve made a choice and it looks perfect.

Andrea Thom:

How it looks can really vary. I mean, I think there’s wisdom in getting a Bible plan that you can read through the Bible in a year say sometimes or looking at reading through a whole book of the Bible to get that larger storyline scape that sometimes we miss. It’s also really helpful to grab a Bible study that can really get you into more specific contents and details of God’s character in us and how that applies. And part of why I love studies is because as you go through them, you’re going through them in community a lot of the time in a small group potentially. And so you’re hearing how God is shaping and using other people, which is especially great if in times doubt, like we’ve just talked about, you’re struggling, you see how God is living and active through other people’s lives too.

Andrea Thom:

But simultaneously to learning about the word you’re also in in a Bible study format, they’re training you up in how to study the Bible itself. You’re actually gaining Bible knowledge skill to be more independent in that. Maybe they have you cross-referencing. Maybe they have you looking at different things. So that is kind of happening alongside the process of actually learning about God so. And then ultimately you’re engaging with God himself as we’ve talked about with some kind of a Bible study.

Andrea Thom:

The only other thing I’ll quickly mention is I think of Tim Keller’s book on prayer and he was talking about training at Bible study and training at prayer. And I really appreciated one comment that he made, which was after you’re engaging in the Word of God, take some time to actually sit with that for a bit and to pray, to meditate, to respond in worship back to God. It’s not just an academic exercise, but it’s one that’s ultimately transformative in our lives. And so sometimes we need to emphasize that piece just as much.

Isaac Dagneau:

Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. No, that’s so good. And that’s a great way to end this conversation. So yeah. I thank you so much, Andrea, for taking the time to be with us today and just giving us the knowledge and wisdom that you have gained just to give to us and to help us and help our listeners as well. So we’ll provide you listeners with all the information that you need to know more about Andrea on our episode podcast page as well. So her writings, her blog and different things like that. So yeah. But Andrea, we hope to have you back on the show again soon.

Andrea Thom:

That would be wonderful. Thanks so much.

Isaac Dagneau:

Awesome. That was great.