Ep. 256: The Christian Activist

Welcome to the indoubt Podcast, where we explore the challenging topics that young adults often face. Each week, we talk with guests who help answer questions of faith, life, and culture, connecting them to our daily experiences in God’s word. For more info on indoubt, visit indoubt.ca or indoubt.com.

Isaac Dagneau:

Hey, welcome to indoubt. My name is Isaac, one of the hosts of indoubt, and also pastor at North Valley Baptist Church in Mission, British Columbia. We have on the show today, again, filmmaker, actor, pastor, and the creative director of the Evangelical Fellowship of Canada, Joel Gordon. So, thanks again for taking the time to be with us.

Joel Gordon:

Yeah, it’s great being here, Isaac. Thanks for having me.

Isaac Dagneau:

For those listening, who maybe didn’t catch our last conversation and therefore they really don’t know who you are, could you share with us how you came to know Jesus and what life looks like for you right now? That’d be great.

Joel Gordon:

Sure. Yeah. Well, I grew up in a Christian home. My parents came to faith when I was just a baby, actually, and we grew up in Northeastern Toronto, and I came to faith through a pastor, his name was Dr. John Moore and he was an evangelist and a pastor, local pastor at our church and I was six. And amazingly, his backyard bordered my playground at school. And so, at recess or lunch break, I’d be able to run over to him if he was gardening and say hi. And one day he invited me over with my brother for some cookies and some milk and shared the gospel with me.

Joel Gordon:

But it was a really memorable day, because I just remember being so filled with joy, skipping home with a black umbrella my brother held over me and just so thrilled to be able to tell my mom and the rest of my family that Jesus was now in my life. And then I was excited about living for him, but that’s sort of how my faith journey began. And yeah, and so, now I am serving with the EFC and I’m really passionate about disciple-making and evangelism and being a disciple and what that looks like as a father of four kids. And I have a great wife, her name is Erin, and we’re on this journey together to the glory of God.

Isaac Dagneau:

I love that, that’s so cool. And just for those listening, Joel, who are unfamiliar with the EFC, could you just give a quick minute-long or even less than that, just explanation of what this organization is and what it does?

Joel Gordon:

Sure. Yeah. The EFC or the Evangelical Fellowship of Canada is a national umbrella organization and it’s like an association of associations and ministry organizations and congregations. And we come together strategically and ask, “What can we do better together than alone?” And so, we’re made up of about 45 different denominations, who are affiliated with us, and about 60 plus ministry organizations, who are all national ministry organizations, and 35 higher education institutions, universities, colleges, Bible schools, and hundreds of churches. And so, we come together for collective impact and represent Christians in public policy, but also we work together to do research and create ministry resources. So, that’s a bit about who we are.

Isaac Dagneau:

Yeah, that’s awesome. Well, anyways, activism, okay, this is what, for those of you listening, this is what we’re going to be diving into for this short time together today. And so what are we talking about when we are talking about activism.

Joel Gordon:

Sure. Well, most standard definitions of activism define it as a vigorous action in support of, or in opposition to an issue. So, that’s sort of your basic dictionary definition of activism.

Isaac Dagneau:

Yeah, that’s good. And when we think about activism, if it’s something that we are vigorously for or against, I mean, there’s these different aspects that play in that, then there has to be an aspect of conviction, which results in behavior. So when we think about that, like belief and then action, and how we behave, how do these things work out in activism? If that makes sense, what parts do they play?

Joel Gordon:

Yeah, that’s a really good place to start. I think as Christians as well, we spend a considerable amount of time analyzing and studying and building up our beliefs. And we often create statements about our beliefs and we spend a lot of time exploring our beliefs and making sure that we understand our beliefs. But when it comes to the actions that flow out of those beliefs, so we may not be as intentional about being accountable or having accountability in place for the action that needs to flow out of those beliefs.

Joel Gordon:

And so, I think it could be helpful even to think about three different types of activism. When most people think about activism, it’s usually the political type of activism that they think about, but then there’s also more cause-related activism. So that could be around issues like racial injustice or creation care. But then there’s a third type of activism, that’s really important for us as believers that we don’t often categorize as activism, but it is, and that’s evangelism. So, evangelism is also actually a form of Christian activism. And so, what’s also interesting is that for followers of Jesus, all three types of activism flow out of a biblical mandate. So all three are motivated by having a passion for Jesus and compassion for people.

Isaac Dagneau:

So, okay. I want to hear those again, because I think that’s really important. So, the first type, you say, is a political.

Joel Gordon:

Right.

Isaac Dagneau:

And then the second is more, you said, it’s a cause, so something that’s going on that you kind of-

Joel Gordon:

Yeah, cause related.

Isaac Dagneau:

Yeah. So, you’re responding to something that’s happened.

Joel Gordon:

Right, which may or may not be political.

Isaac Dagneau:

Sure. Okay. So those can have an overlap. And then the third, which I think is really interesting, you’re saying that evangelism itself is this form of Christian or spiritual activism, that’s fascinating. Yeah.

Joel Gordon:

Yeah. Yeah. And so, when you think of an issue that people might be compelled to be in support of or speak in opposition to a particular issue, the issue that all have sinned, fallen short and are destined for hell without the saving grace of Jesus, that should cause us to take action, and vigorous action, in sharing the good news. And we know that God’s desire is that none should perish. And what’s great is that he calls us to participate in his mission of making him known and restoring all things to himself.

Joel Gordon:

And it’s so much a form of activism, that even one of the worldwide scholars, David Bebbington, who has helped to shape and define what it means to be an evangelical, one of the four pillars of what it means to be an evangelical is activism.

Isaac Dagneau:

Wow.

Joel Gordon:

Yeah. So, we don’t have time to get into what all of these four pillars are of what it means to be an evangelical, but the last one is activism. And he defines that as a core feature of who an evangelical is, somebody who is an activist by sharing the good news and the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Isaac Dagneau:

Yeah. Yeah. So, maybe I’m being a little bit… No, maybe I’m not being crazy, but thinking about just the gospel in general, could we say that God himself was acting in activism in sending Christ, sending his son to do what he did? Would that be right to say that?

Joel Gordon:

I have to think about that for a second, because it will definitely, because God responds to this issue, this brokenness, this separation that we have from him, that happened as a result of the fall. So, yeah, definitely I see that as a form of activism that God demonstrated for us while we are sinners, he sent his son and provided a way out for us.

Isaac Dagneau:

That’s awesome. And I think, thinking through that, and you just, you were able just to paint in some of the spiritual realities there. So, I appreciate that. Because you’re giving the fuller picture to our listeners, and to myself as well. And what I think is cool, if we make that connection about God and activism with sending his son, is that we also know just what that verse you quoted, it was in love that he did that. So that shows that God’s activism is not divorced from love, it’s met together.

Isaac Dagneau:

And if we are called to, as the images of God, and made in his likeness and his image, to reflect him, that means that Christians just like Bebbington saying that activism is a core reality to be an evangelical, we actually are now then, you could say, required to act out in that same loving activism in the way that we do evangelize. So, this is not just an option for us, we all have to be activists by the end of this.

Joel Gordon:

Exactly. And when you think of the other two types of activism that I spoke about earlier, political or cause-related activism, that is really a demonstration of love for neighbor. So, as we respond to God’s love for us and love him wholeheartedly, he then motivates us to love our neighbors as ourselves and what better way to love our neighbors than to share the gospel? But also to respond to practical injustices that are happening all around us.

Isaac Dagneau:

Okay. That’s a perfect segue then. So, you work for the EFC, Evangelical Fellowship of Canada. You’ve been around for a while to see and look around Canada, its spiritual climate. As a Christian leader in Canada, what kinds of things are you seeing in Canada that demand this kind of activism that Christians are to have in terms of loving their neighbor? And you just said there, not just evangelism, although that is maybe ultimate, but in loving our neighbor, what sorts of things are you seeing in Canada that you would like to just open the eyes of many Christians in terms of what sort of things they need to be looking at and grow a conviction for?

Joel Gordon:

Sure. Yeah. Well, I think one of the very immediate things that comes to mind is a current bill right now that’s being introduced in parliament, it’s called the Bill C-7. And what it proposes to do is to extend medically assisted dying or euthanasia to people with disabilities who aren’t even at risk of dying. So, what it’s doing is discriminating against them based on their disability. And they are up in arms around this, the disability advocates are really, really horrified actually is the exact word that many have used that this legislation is being introduced.

Joel Gordon:

So, here’s a very practical and immediate opportunity, we have to respond to create awareness about this. And so, I would encourage anyone who’s listening, who’s a Canadian, to contact their MPs and their senators. And if you want more information, on the EFCs website, theefc.ca/C7, there’s more information there to learn about that particular issue.

Joel Gordon:

And just briefly, I can touch on some things that are happening with our indigenous friends and brothers and sisters also require some political activism. So, there’s treaty violations with Miꞌkmaq people on the East coast and their rights to fish are being violated, and there’s other land disputes and land defenders that we can stand in solidarity with, once we understand treaties and missteps that have happened. So, there are a number of things that are really pressing and timely right now that we can respond to in the political scene.

Isaac Dagneau:

Yeah. Joel, I just want to appreciate the fact that you just started to give these more generalities and principle issues, but you actually went very, very specific. I so appreciate that and I think our listeners would too. But maybe as a form of an example, Joel, a while ago now you produced a TV series called Love is Moving, and maybe this is an opportunity for you to share a little bit about that story and how activism maybe played a role in that whole experience.

Joel Gordon:

Sure. Yeah. Well, that television series was birthed with a colleague, his name is Ben Porter and God really just gave us this vision to help revive a biblical understanding of love. So, I’m going to back up just a little bit, because I think in our culture today, and even within the church in Canada, often what motivates individuals to be involved in activism can be feelings or personal passion or commitments that friends might have to join a cause and so you join in. But really what should motivate us most deeply is God’s word, so our response to injustice should first and foremost be motivated by God’s word. If what flows out of that is then feelings of solidarity and wanting to act on what we believe, that’s great. But if God’s word really motivates our action, then that’s the strongest foundation.

Joel Gordon:

And so, with this television series, we started with the curriculum, a Bible-based curriculum that investigates what love is from a biblical perspective. And from there, we then encouraged young people with their leaders to journal and reflect about that learning and then to pray and find ways to put it into action in their communities. And from that, we then asked them to reach back to us and tell us about what God was leading them to do and how God was leading them to put what they were learning into action.

Joel Gordon:

So, out of those stories, we then selected a few and filmed them and that became the basis of this TV show called Love is Moving, which turned into a magazine, which is still up and running today, the magazine is produced every two months. And so, that idea of telling stories about what God is doing in and through us, I think is important. But the motivation piece, we don’t always spend a lot of time thinking about. And so if that Bible-based motivation should always undergird our activism.

Isaac Dagneau:

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I totally agree. That’s awesome. So, that leads maybe into this a little bit, I’m just thinking, maybe someone’s listening right now and they know that certain things need change, maybe it’s realities in the church, maybe it’s realities of what love is and what it isn’t, maybe it’s very specific realities like you talked about already with things going on in Canada. But if they know these things are wrong, their moral compass says they’re wrong, but there’s none of these feelings, and you already talked about this a little bit, but they don’t have these strong emotional convictions about them. Maybe a question can be, can someone like that, because I know there’s lots, how can they effectively engage in activism even without this heartfelt reality? Can that even happen?

Joel Gordon:

Yeah, for sure. I think it definitely is possible to be an activist, even if you’re not necessarily passionate about a topic, but I think the most sustained type of action and transformative action really comes when the spirit of God unsettles our hearts.

Isaac Dagneau:

Amen, that’s so good, yeah.

Joel Gordon:

And so, when we just sit at the feet of Jesus and ask him to give us that passion for our neighbors, ask him to break our hearts for the things that he wants us to be broken for. And I’ve had times in my life where I haven’t been passionate about God as much as I should have been or passionate about loving people as much as I should have been. And I just had to go down on my hands and knees and say, “Father, God, I don’t know how to do this. I don’t know where to start. But please just open my eyes, open my heart, turned me to your word and guide me.” And sometimes that’s where our journey needs to revisit on an ongoing basis, just asking God really to direct us and to rely and depend on the power of his spirit to bring us into truth and action.

Isaac Dagneau:

Yeah, that’s so good, Joel. And I think you make a really good point that if we know that something needs change, but we’re not spending the time, maybe, with those people that are being persecuted or in unjust situations, and we just care less about that, but we want to still be activists in a certain area, it would make sense for us to, yeah, like you said, fall on our knees, ask God to open our hearts and then actually spend time trying to recognize and understand where these people are coming from to grow this heart of passion for them. So, I think that’s great.

Joel Gordon:

Awareness and learning and listening is really huge. And so, there’s lots that we can learn about the plight of others and maybe not even see their difference as being deficient, but seeing that they have something beautiful to offer us maybe in the way that they view the world and interact with the world, even though it’s different. And so, there’s so much rich motivation that God’s word gives us to put our faith into action. I think about James 1, well, the whole Book of James, but 1:22, he says, “Don’t just listen to God’s word, but you must do what it says, otherwise you’re just fooling yourself.” So, it’s this idea of really making it a priority to apply what we’re learning.

Joel Gordon:

But something else that just comes to mind now, that I think is important to note as well, is that so much of what we’re talking about is our motivation to act and thinking about what we’re doing. But another piece of a reconciled and restored world we have to remember is that we need to ask ourselves, “What is God doing? And what is God going to be doing? And how can we,” we are invited to participate in what God is doing. So, I think having that perspective is also important, because it’s not up to us ultimately, all of creation is in God’s hands and he’s going to restore all things unto himself. So, that’s reassuring as well. It doesn’t disqualify us from taking action at all, but actually it can motivate us more knowing that God is already moving this stream, this river, this mighty river. And we’re just invited to jump on board and to flow with this river that’s already running.

Isaac Dagneau:

Amen. I think that’s such a good point to point out, Joel, and how so often too that God uses us, he uses us as his church, not just as these inanimate tools, but he’s using our personalities, our lives, our passion, to bring about his work, and that’s that whole participation piece that you are talking about. Again, my mind just goes back to Paul when he was in Corinth and this is an accent, I think he was discouraged and the Lord met him in a dream and said, “Don’t worry, keep going, keep preaching the gospel, because there’s many in this city who are my people.” So, that’s him saying, “Look, I already, I’ve done work in these people and they need to hear the gospel from your mouth. So, participate with me and you can do this.”

Isaac Dagneau:

And I just think that’s so essential, Joel, I love that. As we wrap up here, I want to come down to maybe a practical question. So, if a Christian right now, a young adult listening and what you’ve suggested may be an example of this, the Bill C-7 or the issues with the indigenous people with the fishing. Maybe they’re listening right now, and they see something maybe even in their community or culture or their country that is unjust, that needs to change. What do you suggest they do? They might be listening on the bus right now with their mask on, or they might be at home cooped up, isolating, what can they do? And the scripture and Jesus give us examples of what we can do.

Joel Gordon:

Yeah, definitely. There’s so many rich examples, even from the life of Christ himself, on how we respond to crises, how we respond to people who are in crises. When Jesus intervened and met the woman who was caught in adultery and he essentially rescued her from this horrible situation, but then pleaded with her to sin no more afterwards. I think it’s a great example of him really standing up for and protecting the vulnerable, while also calling out sin and speaking the truth in love. But scripture is so rich with just a plethora of examples like that.

Joel Gordon:

But I think a great starting point is just silence and solitude with God. And just praying and asking God to open our eyes. And then, for sure, just looking through the pages of scripture, going to, I’m thinking of specific passages, like the Book of James is a great place to investigate, versus Micah, Chapter 6, verse 8, “What does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” Those images, those scripture passages about justice and love and mercy and the requirement that we need to be humbly walking with God, it gives us a good starting point on how to engage.

Joel Gordon:

So, I’d say prayer, spending time in the word, really looking at what the word, how it’s directing us, and then looking around us, into our communities, and making the connections between what God is telling us and what we’re seeing all around us. There’s opportunities for every single believer, every church to respond.

Joel Gordon:

I’ll just give one very practical example, most churches and most young adults, who are believers, live on land that is connected to a treaty. And so, finding out what treaty you live on, finding out what nations of people have lived and share the land with you and being able to shape a land acknowledgement for your congregation, for your local church, that could be done once a quarter, it could be read before a service every week, some congregations do it every week, but that’s a great starting point to acknowledge that this land that we now have and share as home was once home to people who didn’t give up this land in many cases and didn’t sell it. But in some cases, the land was, in many cases, it was stolen and taken and we now have a church building on that very land.

Joel Gordon:

And so, part of our reconciliation with people is to first allow God to unsettle us and, in humility, be willing to confess and repent and understand that even though we were not there when treaties were made and land agreements were signed, but we now benefit downstream. And so, a land acknowledgement is a very practical thing that every single believer in Canada can think about, connected to where they live or the place that they worship.

Isaac Dagneau:

Yeah. That’s so good. And I appreciate once again, Joel, just the very specific example as well, not sticking with generalities. So, I love that. Thank you for doing that. And also, just going back, I think it’s interesting how the first step you can take is on your knees. So, before you stand in this passionate activism, it actually begins on your knees humbled before the Lord. So, I such appreciate that, Joel. So once again, Joel, thank you for spending time with us today. We’ve already wrapped up our time. So it is much, much appreciated. We hope to have you back on again soon. Thanks, Joel.

Joel Gordon:

Great. Thanks for having me.

Isaac Dagneau:

Hey, thanks for joining us today in our discussion on biblical activism with Joel Gordon. You can learn more about the ministry Joel is with, The Evangelical Fellowship of Canada, by going to evangelicalfellowship.ca. And lastly, if this is your first time listening to indoubt, I’d encourage you to check out indoubt.ca. There, we have tons of articles on subjects of life and faith, as well as over 240 podcasts with guests from around the world, talking about critical issues with a biblical perspective, you can find it at indoubt.ca.

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Ben Lowell:

Hi, Ben Lowell, CEO of Back to the Bible Canada’s indoubt. Every week our aim is to engage young people in a conversation around matters of life and faith and culture. Most recently, our hosts, Daniel and Isaac have met with Christian pastors and leaders to discuss biblical insights on sex, a conversation about the importance of human rights and the growing dark impression pornography is making on individual lives in our society at large. These are conversations critical for young Christian and adults to be involved in. For current programs or to listen in on past programs, head to indoubt.ca in Canada and indoubt.com in the US. And for expanded programs, sign up for the indoubt Podcast.