Ep. 271: Created in His Image

*Below is an edited transcription of the audio.

Speaker 1:

Welcome to the indoubt podcast, where we explore the challenging topics that young adults often face. Each week we talk with guests who help answer questions of faith, life, and culture, connecting them to our daily experiences and God’s word. For more info on indoubt, visit indoubt.ca or indoubt.com.

Daniel Markin:

Hey, this is Daniel Markin. And on today’s episode, I am happy to be joined by Paul Park. He’s a pastor here in Tsawwassen, BC, and we’re actually talking about racism. And this is something that is currently very much on everybody’s mind, especially current events with Stop Asian Hate. We have the recent stuff with George Floyd and Black Lives Matter. And then we also are currently having more and more of these residential schools, and bodies being dug up here, which hits Canadians really hard. So I hope that you find this episode helpful. I hope it helps bring some clarity to how we should think about racism as Christians.

Daniel Markin:

Hey, welcome to indoubt. My name’s Daniel Markin and today I’m joined by Paul Park. Paul, why don’t you introduce yourself here to the people listening.

Paul Park:

Yeah. Thanks Daniel, and thanks for having me on this episode. My name’s Paul Park. I serve as the lead pastor at South Delta Baptist Church here in Tsawwassen. If you’re not in BC, this is like a suburb, close to Vancouver, probably about 25, 35 minutes away. It’s been my privilege to serve here for the last several years. I also have worked at the local seminary here in BC called Northwest Baptist Seminary. And really keen on all these conversations that you guys have. Really, I’m an avid listener, I guess, and viewer of some of your content. So absolutely love it. As I pastor I also love engaging what the culture is talking about and the conversations there, and not to be in our little silo or bubble. I know bubble has been redefined in the last couple of years, but, yeah, I love how you bring into conversation about everyday life and everyday cultural stuff. And I’m fascinated by those things too.

Daniel Markin:

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for being here. What you were just mentioning, the kind of the cultural, current events. That’s actually pretty much what we’re talking about today. We’re going to be talking about all sorts of current events regarding the topic of racism. And we’re just going to kind of see where this takes us. But what’s unique about this too is it’s not just two white guys talking about racism right now. You, Paul, were born in Korea.

Paul Park:

Yes. Yeah. South Korea. Sometimes people ask which Korea. Yeah, I was born in Seoul, South Korea. My family immigrated here to Vancouver when I was about six or seven. And then I moved to the States, lived there, lived in Florida, lived in Georgia as well, Atlanta, for three years and then came back to Vancouver. So yeah, I’ve been around a few different cities and a few different continents even, I guess, but yeah, I’ve definitely been exposed to multi-cultural and multi-ethnic kind of things in cities ever since I was very young.

Daniel Markin:

Yeah. And what’s ironic right now is Tsawwassen where you are serving is not as racially diverse as somewhere like Vancouver, where I live.

Paul Park:

Yeah, absolutely.

Daniel Markin:

Where you are right now, just a lot more white people in Tsawwassen.

Paul Park:

Yeah. Like my wife Sarah, we’ve been married for six years now, and she grew up in London, Ontario, where we’re talking about current events. Of course, lots of Canadians are quite upset at what happened in London, Ontario with the Islamophobia and the shooting there. And so that’s actually where she’s from. So she’s from a little bit of a small town in Ontario. And she moved here in Tsawwassen when she was very young. And also a suburb of Vancouver, like you said, not as racially diverse as some other cities in Canada. And I come from like a really multiethnic background. Both of us were actually teachers. I was a high school teacher. She is an elementary school teacher. So even in the classrooms that we’ve taught, there’s different varying levels of diversity there. It is interesting. It is very interesting to serve in Tsawwassen. There is definitely a growth in ethnic diversity right now. We are growing in diversity, and the city is kind of figuring out and the community’s figuring out how do we adapt to this? How do we respond? And things like that. I know there’s been lots of people in our church who are Caucasians, but they were super happy that the lead pastor we selected was an Asian person.

Paul Park:

So I’ve experienced really kind and generous people in our community. And of course, sadly, I’ve also experienced the other side too, where not maybe towards me personally, but towards Asians in general, there’s been lots of derogatory things that were said that I would define as being unfair and probably wrongful to say. So I think in any part of the world, you’ll see this kind of prejudice, whether it’s gender or racial. You can’t escape it, I don’t think, in this broken world. But, yeah, we live through it, and we process it together as a couple now and as a family.

Daniel Markin:

On the discussion of racism, right now it’s right on the forefront of everything in the news right now. And even to the point where like, especially with you as an Asian man, Stop Asian Hate was trending really not too long ago. Before it was a lot of stuff, especially with all the protests of George Floyd with Black Lives Matter. And then we saw a movement of Stop Asia Hate. And now of course, one of the grievous things in our Canadian history is now obviously being brought into the light with the indigenous school in Kamloops and with the other indigenous school just founded in Saskatchewan.

Daniel Markin:

And so we see that there’s a large history of racism. And so this again has been brought back to the forefront of social connection of discussions across Canada. This isn’t just a British Columbia thing. This is across Canada. These residential schools in predominantly white Saskatchewan is something that now it’s on the world stage. And I guess for us to start this discussion, can you define racism? And define racism how you understand it, because my understanding is right now, we have people throwing accusations of racism and a lot of times they’re using different definitions, by what racism means, because I think the Bible defines racism differently than what our world defines racism as.

Paul Park:

Yeah. And I think before we even define it, maybe taking a step back. I do have lots of people from our church and our community, young Caucasian men and women who would come to me and ask, “Hey, Pastor Paul, what do you think? I feel guilty about all of this stuff? Is that how I’m supposed to feel?” And there’s almost like a reverse, almost like a guilt thing. And I mean, we can get to this maybe later, but guilt and shame is something that God has lifted us out of. Not something that we should live trapped by. However, having said that it is a question. What is racism? Is there a such thing as reverse racism? And the social media will blow up as soon as you mention that.

Paul Park:

But I think right now my more of a biblical perspective is God created all of us in His image. So everyone should be valued and respected. There’s dignity that is due to every human being simply, if you’re a Christ follower at least, simply because every person is made in the image of God. So there’s respect there. There should be. This is a holy thing, a human being, and no matter what gender, what race or even what religious belief they have. Sometimes some people go, “Well, hey, tragedies and brokenness happen everywhere. Not just racially, not just to African-Americans or First Nations or Asians. It’s everywhere.” And I agree, it is everywhere. Sadly, that’s the broken state of our humanity right now.

Paul Park:

However, having said that, it doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t listen and be compassionate to them. In the Bible, I believe the good case study, I preached on this a few weeks ago in our church when this all came out, but Luke Chapter 10, good Samaritan. Many Christians and non-Christians know this story well. In that story, when the lawyer asks Jesus to put him to the test, “Who is my neighbor?” Jesus gives this wonderful story about three people who walk by a person who’s been beat on a very dangerous road from Jerusalem to Jericho. And on this particular road, this man is a half dead, laying there desperately in need of help, and then a priest goes by and sees this person and walks by on the other side. And then a Levite walks by and then says, “Well, I’m going to walk by on the other side too.”

Paul Park:

So these are two religious people, Levites were people who helped the priests in the temple and stuff, so two religious leader groups represented by these two characters. Jesus says, “Those guys passed on by on the other side.” And then you get the third character and everyone in that Jewish culture would have expected a third example, because comes in threes, two’s too little, four is too much. And as the third person comes, you’re thinking, “Oh, it must be a lay person. And Jesus must be teaching against religious leaders hypocrisy and how the lay Jewish person should step up and they’re doing a better job at this.” Maybe this is where Jesus is going, but then Jesus flips it around, and it’s a Samaritan. It’s not a Jewish person at all. It’s a Samaritan.

Paul Park:

And if you know the Bible, you might’ve already heard that there’s huge historical relationship tension there between the Samaritans and the Jewish, or the Israelites, because there’s a history of racial tension, a history of really racial animosity. And even then Jesus says, “When you see a person, it doesn’t matter if that’s an enemy, if that’s someone from a different gender, a different race, doesn’t matter.” Your automatic response in Luke Chapter 10, I think Verse 33, the Samaritan had, when he saw him, he had compassion. That’s a reflection of God’s character. God’s character is compassion towards people who are experiencing brokenness in this world, whether that’s mental health, whether that’s physical health, whether it’s physical needs, or whether it’s injustice. Whenever we see people who are hurting and broken, our automatic response as Christians must be compassionate.

Paul Park:

But sometimes we are prone to think, “Let’s be more compassionate to other Christians. Other people who think, look, and smell and eat the same things as we do and feel the same way that we do. People who we are very accustomed to, let’s have compassion for them. But then if a person of different belief or a different color or a different gender go through something, maybe it’s not my problem.” And I think that to me is what I consider as racism is when we stop treating others who may look or feel or sound or live differently than us as if they weren’t made in the image of God. If we start to have no respect for them, or we don’t give them the dignity that they’re due just simply because God’s created them in His own image, I believe that’s racism.

Daniel Markin:

Yeah. And I would add to that and say it’s the moment we start using arbitrary categories to put people into different categories and to rank them, and that’s how I understand Paul’s words, because he’ll say, is it I believe in Galatians, “There’s neither slave nor free, Jew nor Greek, male nor female.”

Paul Park:

Which was radical at the time.

Daniel Markin:

Completely.

Paul Park:

Radical at the time. Yeah.

Daniel Markin:

Well, and especially because back in Paul’s day, people were just as racist as they are now. People were just as racist as they were back when slavery was around in the United States. Racism has, from a bird’s eye view, has always existed. And it’s just the most, I think, silly way of classifying people. And a lot of the categories are arbitrary. And one of the challenges now is in the fight against racism, to be anti-racist, I think that our culture is getting it wrong as well, because you kind of resorted to reverse racism. I think that’s existing now too. And there’s lots of nuance to that because there’s history behind that. There’s people with deep, deep hurt. And as they act upon this, they’re actually acting upon their stereotypes and their categories.

Daniel Markin:

So both sides aren’t doing anything to help one another, and yeah, it’s just been a strange, strange, strange time. And I wonder, as you’re watching for example, Stop Asian Hate, how is that for you as an Asian person?

Paul Park:

Yeah. I mean, let me just, a disclaimer here. Personally, I haven’t experienced like crazy, I don’t have a crazy story to share about how I personally experienced racism. I grew up mostly in East Vancouver where I’m probably the majority, if you look out. I didn’t ever feel like I was a visible minority because there were so many Asians in East Vancouver. And so that was kind of the case with me. But obviously I still have experienced many things and I’ve witnessed many things, and it is sad, because I’m married to a person who’s not Asian, and because my church family, there’s very few of us in our church that are Asian. I never feel unwelcomed here. And I’m very thankful. And our people have been very gracious and kind, and I think really above reproach in things like this.

Paul Park:

But we all have room to grow. And one of the things I’ll say is this. I think there’s two responses that are kind of, at least two responses, that are kind of hurtful when we respond to racism. One is, “Well, everyone else is hurting too. So don’t make it so special about you.” Whether you’re African-American or Asian or First Nation or indigenous, it doesn’t matter, “Hey, stop whining.” Obviously no one will say it like this, but then the conversation kind of gets there. “Hey, everyone hurts. White people hurt too.” And it’s true. We live in a broken society.

Paul Park:

But I gave this illustration to some people in our church when we did our own podcast on this. If we saw a 12 year old girl who was raped, and who was telling her story, and by the way, I have seen these stories in real life, none of us would ever go, “Well, there’s a lot of other people who get raped, and who get treated poorly at work. This exists everywhere, in North America and everywhere else in the world.” We would never say that. That would be horribly inappropriate for us to say that at that moment. We would listen. If the girl needs to cry, we would respond by our hearts being broken, by crying out to God, by saying, “God, how could this even happen? God what do we do with this?” We would be sorrowful. We would have compassion. That would be the response. And I think in this matter, just because a group has been systemically prejudiced against for a long time, I think if we grow too numb to it to say, “Well, it happens all the time.” Then that’s a hurtful response for a person in that culture.

Paul Park:

And another response, I think is, going back to the reverse racism, I know I’m a non-White person so maybe it’s a little bit better for me to, I know that’s a hot issue right now.

Daniel Markin:

Totally.

Paul Park:

But I honestly think shaming isn’t the purpose. And I get it. You can say, “Hey, I didn’t do that. I wasn’t a part of that. I didn’t make that decision.” But as a society, we do have a responsibility. And here’s what I mean. Biblically speaking, if you go to Matthew Chapter 25, there’s this illustration of where God says, “As much as you’ve done to the least of these, my brothers, you’ve done it to me.” And He’s talking about, you know, “You didn’t visit me in prison when I was in prison. You didn’t give me water when I was thirsty. You didn’t feed me when I was hungry. You didn’t close me when I was naked.” All of this stuff. And then the goats on the other side, they go like, “Well, what do you mean? I’ve never seen you like that, Lord. What are you talking about?” And He’s like, “Well, when you didn’t do it to people that were in need, that’s like you didn’t do it to me.”

Paul Park:

And he does that to both sides. People who did it, he says, “Good on you. You did it to me.” And the problem with, I think, our culture today is, our cultural expectation has become, our vision for life has become, don’t harm anyone, don’t kill anyone, don’t scam anyone. And then you’re good. That’s the standard. If you’re like Mother Teresa and other people who are philanthropists and helping other people, giving generously that’s bonus. We could never demand that of you. We can never ask you to do that. If you did it, that would be great. We would respect you and we would applaud. But as long as you don’t hurt others, that’s the standard. And then you’re okay. You’re an okay person. You’re maybe even a good person. As long as you keep in your lane, don’t break any rules.

Paul Park:

However, the Bible doesn’t say that. The Bible says if you don’t take care of the hurt and the sick and the broken, if you don’t minister to them with the love of Christ, if you don’t actually share the hope of Jesus to these people, then actually, now. God’s vision for life is that we would take care of one another as He would care for us, that we would be steward of not just the environment and the world and the material goods, but that we would also be stewards of our relationships. That we would steward our relationships in a way that we would love one another as Christ loves us. And if you fail to do that, God would actually say that is sin. The very moment you think your standard for life, God’s vision for your life, God’s purpose for your life, is only just don’t break any of the laws and rules, and you’re all good? You’ve misunderstood God’s purpose for you.

Paul Park:

And I think that’s the sadness, when people respond by saying, “Well, I didn’t do it. I have no responsibility.” Well, wait a minute. God’s vision for us is not just not do bad things. That’s a good first step, but as a great follow-up to that would be, “God, how can I be helpful to these people? Just as Jesus wept for Lazarus, even though Jesus knew restoration was coming. We know that hopeful day of God’s kingdom is coming and it’s already here. We know that whole thing, but then right now how can I participate in Your restorative and reconciling and redeeming work right now, in my community, in my sphere of influence?”

Daniel Markin:

Absolutely. How can I now be part of the kingdom of God and serve the kingdom of God? Because I wonder if we could frame the conversation this way, because I think right now there’s two ways of addressing racism and trying to solve it. One is I think a worldly way, a fleshly way. And then I think the other one is the way of Christ and the way of the kingdom. And so maybe we can start with the worldly way, but you brought up shame earlier, and this idea that right now I think our world is choosing to try and solve the issue of racism by shaming those who are racist. And has gone even further than that by, I think stretching the definition of racism to the point where racism is being looked for, and because the definition’s been stretched, racism’s being found everywhere.

Daniel Markin:

And I think that’s unhelpful because the solution right now is if you call someone a racist, they’re to either accept that, Say acknowledged, yes, you are a racist. Or if they don’t acknowledge they’re racist, then clearly they don’t see their own racism. And so it’s like a Catch-22. The accusation offers no way out. And I think that’s why a lot of people are feeling some sort of guilt because they’re like, “Am I racist? I don’t know. I’ve tried to walk in the way of Christ my whole life. And it just seems like I’m just getting shamed for this.”

Paul Park:

Yep. And cancel culture adds to that, I think, and I know [Canaday 00:19:18]and [Canaflag 00:19:19] has been in question right now, with do we even celebrate our heritage as Canadians? The quote about John A. McDonald and how our nation was founded and all of those things. And I admit, it’s complex. It’s not something that we could probably fully explore in just this one episode, but I will say this. I believe, like you said, in a worldly way, shame, but in a biblical sense, in Israel’s culture, shame and honor, that was a shame and honor culture, where their biggest currency wasn’t money, their biggest currency was actually honor. They would do everything to attain honor and they would do everything to try to avoid shame.

Paul Park:

And to a certain extent, I think maybe in our Western, capitalistic kind of world, maybe money trumps honors sometimes, but honor is still important to us. And shame is still something we want to desperately avoid. In Jesus’s time, in a shame and honor culture, you would do everything possible to avoid shame. That’s why the gospel, I think, really hit them hard when Jesus says, “I’ve taken on your shame and nailed it to the cross. I’ve given you a status as a royal inheritor of the kingdom of God. You are princes and princesses in the kingdom of God, adopted by grace in Jesus Christ.” That message was so deep and profound for these people who desperately wanted to leave shame behind and find honor. And God was saying, “You can do that through Jesus.”

Paul Park:

And in today’s culture when we deal with things like racism, and if you’re feeling a sense of shame or I haven’t done enough, God gives us this option, not only to stop racism, but for you to reconcile. So in a biblical sense, I know this might be, I want to be careful here, but in God’s economy, it wouldn’t be enough just to say, “Okay, stop racism and punish those who’ve been racist in the past, both systemically as an organization, or personally.” Actually what God would truly desire and call us to is to try to restore the person who were even racist, because that’s the point of the gospel. If you were racist, just as we were all sinners in whether it was racism or anything that we did to be sinful, God’s whole goal through His gospel is that we would be redeemed and restored and reconciled.

Paul Park:

So then how do we even offer reconciliation for people and groups and organizations that may have failed in the past? How do we actually offer reconciliation and forgiveness? How do we actually serve our world and community in a way, and sometimes lead the community in a way, so that people like me, let’s say, for example, if I’ve experienced racism, “Can you lead me and guide me in a way that I would be compelled to forgive, because I know about the forgiveness of Christ, and because I know that’s a call on me, and that’s the best way to live for myself and for this world and this community.” Can we do that? And can we also teach correct rebuke and also reconcile and redeem those who have made mistakes before and failed before and those who should be punished and who maybe are punished, is there a way for them to also be redeemed, because that’s what the biblical God that we know would do and He is doing.

Paul Park:

So I think sometimes we only go into the punishment mode and the judgment mode rather than really seeing what Jesus says. His track record has always been, yes, full righteousness and justice and punishment, but at the very same time, grace, mercy, and redemption. And I think sometimes we miss that when we get into these heated debates, and rightfully so. We should be in debates and we should be talking about this and exploring what we need to do. But I think sometimes that becomes a blind spot. We miss grace.

Daniel Markin:

Yeah, we do. And we have a culture that doesn’t have much time for forgiveness anymore, like with this shame, and if you’re caught doing something racist, you’re going to be punished for it. Our world says you need to be punished for that, but it doesn’t really have a metric of when to bring you out of that punishment. Who’s to say when you’ve been sorry enough or who’s to say when you’ve actually learned your lesson? That answer isn’t clear. And our world’s basically saying right now, and this is the message that I as a white person sense, which is we see these indigenous schools, and because I’m of colonial descent, even though my heritage is people fleeing to Canada out of racial and religious persecution, my background with the Russian Doukhobors, they were fleeing because they were being attacked by their own people, through racism, through classism, all that stuff.

Daniel Markin:

But our world’s saying, “Hey you white people were responsible for this. Therefore you have to atone for it.” One, I’m not aware of that in the scriptures where people who have committed sins in the past, where, yeah, there might be consequences of those sins, but I’m not aware that they have to atone for their ancestors sins. they atone for their sins. They might bear the consequences of the sins through the punishment of God. But it seems right now that our culture saying, Somebody’s got to atone for this. Are you going to atone for it? Are you going to atone for it? Hey, white people, you who made these religious schools, hey, Christians, you who built these schools with the government, it’s time for you to atone for that, for you to atone for that.”

Daniel Markin:

And the gospel message is Jesus already did atone for that. They want a scapegoat. They want someone that can blame this on. And Jesus took that blame. He took that shame.

Paul Park:

Yeah. So I’ve watched some things, in the past, before the recent events where Tim Keller, he addressed this in more of an African-American and White-American kind of relational tension there, in that context. And this was many years ago, long before BLM and all that stuff. But when he was asked about it, he went into his biblical understanding of corporate responsibility. And that’s where I went with my church as well when we were dealing with the residential schools, the 215, the sad, tragic discovery of the remains of children there. And our immediate response as a church was that we should be filled with sorrow and we just came eye to eye with brokenness and we are sorrowful. And then I taught on the good Samaritan and all that stuff. And then I asked our church of our understanding of corporate responsibility. In Tim Keller’s speech there he actually says something like, “Us here in the west who grew up here in North America especially, we have a little bit less appreciation for corporate responsibility because we tend to work under a justice system where it’s individual responsibility, and individual punishment for those who break the rules and stuff. However, in other parts of the world, it’s actually very common to see corporate responsibility.”

Paul Park:

And I actually did this, Warren Buffett was asked, he’s a famous billionaire, Warren Buffet was asked, “Do you consider yourself smart or lucky?” And, I think it was a little bit of a baiting question to say because he’s like probably one of the most respected and sought after investors in American history. He’s very successful with his investments. So he was at a conference where he was teaching many, many people how to do investments and stuff like that. And they expected him to say, “Yeah, I’m a little bit lucky, but I’m also, I’ve done my job and I’ve done my due diligence.” But he actually says, “100% I’m lucky.” If you actually hear his conversation, I’m not quoting him directly here, but he says things like, “Well, if I was born in 1930, guys, if I wasn’t born in America, maybe if I was born in a country where there were stricken with poverty, my skillsets would not have been valuable to them. I happened to grow up in a time where capitalism was blooming in America and that contributed to my success. I was born in 1930. If I was born African-American I wouldn’t have had access to the education or the opportunities or the networks that I had. If I was born as a female in that time, I would not have had the opportunities and access to networks, the way that I had. And therefore I consider myself lucky.”

Paul Park:

And that was interesting, because as far as I know, I don’t think he comes from a Christian perspective, but I think what he’s getting at there, and what Tim Keller is getting at is, we actually do understand corporate responsibility. We just don’t maybe fully appreciate what that’s about, but we do understand this unique idea than when, “If my parents are wealthy and they pass away, that inheritance comes my way. I didn’t earn it. I didn’t deserve it. But some get that and some don’t. Some inherit mental health, some inherit fetal alcohol syndrome, some inherit poverty, some inherit a very unhealthy home, but some others inherit wealth. Some others inherit a very stable home. Some others inherit a great Christian teaching and home. I didn’t deserve that. I don’t think any one of us deserved it either way.”

Paul Park:

So I think we see at some respect, and I think that’s why when there’s these apologies made by Stephen Harper years ago, and I think the corporate responsibility should be, like you said, it shouldn’t be us atoning for it because we did it. I think it should be us recognizing there’s something better that we can do now.

Daniel Markin:

Yeah, absolutely.

Paul Park:

If we’ve inherited poor things and bad things, we could actually work towards getting better. However, if we have inherited good things, like wisdom, access to education, good Christian teaching at home, stable home, happy home, if we’ve inherited these, these are privileges. And that’s what I say to my white or Asian or African-Americans or any one of us who had the privilege of a stable home, resources, good Christian teaching, I mean, that’s a huge privilege. Not everyone grows up with that. If we have that privilege, I just ask us to consider, because I always say I’m wealthy, not because I’m super rich by the world’s standards, but because I know that I have been blessed more than what I deserve. And therefore, what can we use our privilege towards? How can we use the giftings, the resource, how can we steward all of these privileges so that we serve those who may have not been born with the privileges or who don’t currently have access to those, who don’t have a voice, who don’t have justice, who don’t have righteousness in their lives.

Paul Park:

How do we serve them with our privilege rather than just saying, “I’m going to enjoy my privilege and I’m going to peace out, y’all. I’m going to Hawaii, and that’s it.” Hawaii is great by the way, guys, go to Hawaii. It’s all good. I’m not trying to shame you on any of that. But what I am saying is if we have neglect for the broken and the hurtful, I think at some point the Bible should convict you on that. And I think that’s where corporate responsibility could be turned towards a healthier way than like what you suggested earlier, where now it’s being a counter attack, and the oppressed becoming the oppressor in a sense. And I think that’s horribly unhealthy in many respects of our society.

Paul Park:

So I would pray, and I am praying that our society, our community, doesn’t lead towards, “Hey, let’s now oppress the oppressor, but rather how can we use our corporate privilege and actually redirect some of our attention and resources so that we actually serve the broken just as Christ did?” That would be a beautiful outcome and I’m praying that churches lead that way.

Daniel Markin:

Amen. What you’re describing there sounds a lot like stewardship and that the master, the Lord, He’s given us each different talents, to use the parable of the talents, and we’re to double the master’s money. And so what you said, to sit on that privilege, to sit on that money, not do anything with it, and the Lord’s going to hold us to account for that. The Lord gives each person different amounts of things, and we’re not to apologize for that, but we are to steward it well and use it for the building of the kingdom, for the building up of others. And so I think where our world is right now is they want to attack privilege and say, “No, no, no, no. Everyone should be brought down to the same level. That’s equal society.” And I think what the Lord wants, what I think when He gives all these people different amounts of giftings, like Warren Buffet, he’s born in a right time, right place, right skin color. Some of us here in North America, maybe you were born into a wealthy family or you were born into a two parent family. These are all different things that we can’t control. And they do influence our life.

Daniel Markin:

Yet, what we are to do is actually steward that well for the building of the community, of society. And so that’s the challenge that I think because you’ve going back to the collective guilt, part of is like we’ll slap a racial label on it. Say, “Well, you only get these things because of your white privilege.” And I think as a Christian, we look at it and say, “I don’t deserve any of this. This was all grace. And I want to try and share and help others as much as I can with that.”

Paul Park:

Yeah. I’m a naturalized Canadian citizen. The Bible, there’s that centurion who says, “Paul, you’re actually born into a Roman citizenship. I bought this.” And I didn’t buy immigration of course. But my family immigrated here, we chose to be Canadians. So I know some people go, “Well.” I’m like, “Well, I may not be born Canadian, but I am Canadian as much as you are. And my family has chosen to be here. I love Canada. I’m proud to be a Canadian. I love our nation. I pray for it. I want to serve it.” And I think the best way to serve it as a Christ follower right now is to lead by example how we love like Christ. And I think that is literally the best thing we can do for our nation as Christ followers. If we all led by example and taught and influenced our nation in ways that are appropriate so that we know how to forgive, reconcile, redeem, cry with, be sorrowful, and mourn and grieve and to hope in Christ and to lead as Christ led us and to follow where Jesus leads us. I think that’s what our nation requires right now. And I love Canada so much that I would love to see that happen and to be a part of a movement of multiple generations, leading in the same way, the way of God’s love, the way that God created us to be.

Daniel Markin:

Absolutely. We’ve come to the end of our time here, but I hope to everyone listening that this is, like we could keep going on this. This topic, like you mentioned, is just so big, but I hope that this can help provide some perspective and some help in understanding sort of some of the issues. And again, the topic of racism is super tricky right now. And I think one thing that can help everyone is not necessarily just being reactive and rejecting everything right now, but sitting, taking the time to actually articulate, form an understanding and or opinion on things, and then begin to enter into discussion. Because I think far too often right now, people, they’ll see these things happened and they’ll say, “Well, the church did that. I don’t want anything to do with the church. I’m done with that.”

Daniel Markin:

And I just think that’s an overreaction because there are different contexts. Yes, there are mistakes in the past, but that basically just throwing everyone into a box, labeling people, and in the interest in health of discussion is just unhelpful.

Paul Park:

Yeah. And I’ll say this. I have met lots of people who are processing this, emotionally, and rightfully so, we need to. However, I would love all Christ followers to be challenged to respond Biblically too. There might be an emotional and personal response and then you now need to balance that out or hold that accountable to, okay, what does the Bible say? What is the appropriate response Biblically? And sometimes I think we respond to all of this with our own feelings or how we feel about it and then fail to recognize the Bible should inform how we respond and how we feel. And if it doesn’t align with it, we should instruct our heart to do so, and prayerfully, led by the Holy Spirit. My hope is that we would respond Biblically, not just emotionally.

Daniel Markin:

Amen. Well, thank you so much for being here. And this was just such a unique discussion and I’m just thankful. And I hope we get to do this again, Paul.

Paul Park:

Yeah. Thanks so much for having me. I hope it was helpful.

Daniel Markin:

Thank you for listening to this episode of indoubt. If you liked what you heard, if you want to hear more of some of the stuff Paul has done with us before, you can check out episode 170 and episode 171 on our website. Paul does some discussion on the difference between preaching and teaching. So you’ll find that helpful. So thanks again for joining us. And we look forward to catching you next week on indoubt.

Speaker 1:

Thanks so much for listening. If you want to hear more, subscribe on iTunes or Spotify, or visit us online at indoubt.ca or indoubt.com. We’re also on social media so make sure to follow us on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter.

Daniel Markin:

Indoubt is a ministry of Good News Global Media designed to speak into faith, life and culture. These are challenging conversations for young men and women who have chosen lives for Jesus, while at the same time are constantly engaged by the culture and philosophies of the world around them. It causes us to ask about the relevance of the Bible, how to engage our world, how to share the gospel, and perhaps the most difficult question, how does the young follower of Jesus live a holy life? Join us each week as we dig deep into faith, life and culture. For more information about indoubt or to offer a gift of support to this young adult ministry, visit indoubt.com or call –1-844- 663-2424. Thanks.