Ep. 156: (Pro-)Life Is Beautiful – Stephanie Gray Pt. 1

Kourtney Cromwell:
Hey everyone, welcome to indoubt. This week on the show, Ryan welcomes Stephanie Gray and they discuss abortion and get to the heart of why the life of a preborn child matters.

Stephanie Gray:
There are some moments where we shouldn’t be alone such as you’re in a crisis pregnancy you need a community around you. But when we’re committing sin we actually need to experience the aloneness that comes from departing from God’s plan in hopes that we might actually not depart from God’s plan. So the last-ditch effort to actually convince someone not to abort is to say, “Because I love you I can’t go with you.”

Ryan McCurdy:
Hello and welcome to indoubt. My name is Ryan. I hope you had a great Christmas holidays and a good New Year and you’re settling in well to the new 2019 year. We’re gonna start this year off with a good friend. Her name is Stephanie Gray. We actually are going to be talking about abortion. And we want to talk about the importance of human life pre-birth and we ask these types of questions like how are our views on humanity and the individual affected by how we view abortion, because God is deeply concerned with how we view others and how we view ourselves and abortion influences that belief. So make sure you stay connected and listen to what Stephanie Gray has to say about abortion.

Ryan McCurdy:
All right. What a joy to be here today. We have a very special guest. Her name is Stephanie Gray. And Stephanie has spoken to audiences all around the world for more than 16 years around the topic and conversation of abortion. And her goal is to have, as far as I can understand we’re gonna learn a little bit more how to a proper conversation to communicate well of why abortion is important to talk about, and how we move forward in a moral way, in a way that honours God, in a way that is beneficial for all people involved including the unborn. Her book ‘Love Unleashes Life’ is out and is a great resource for this topic. She’s spoken at Google. She’s had many places where she’s traveled all over the world and North America. And so Stephanie, thank you for being here. It is a joy to have you. Welcome on the show.

Stephanie Gray:
Thank you. I’m very happy to be here.

Ryan McCurdy:
So Stephanie, you’re quite passionate about abortion and the conversation of abortion. Where did this all get started for you? How did you get into this conversation? Yeah. Tell us a little bit about that.

Stephanie Gray:
It started at a very young age. Both my parents were very active in the pro-life movement and as a result of exposure to their involvement in the movement I became a child activist, you could say. I went to conferences with my parents and marches and rallies. My mom volunteered at a pregnancy care center. So as a young child I would often accompany her when she would go volunteer. And she would counsel girls in crisis, and I would play with fetal models, and I would doodle on letterhead and go through the baby clothes that they had in the back room. And so that kind of was the foundation for my knowledge of the abortion issue and my conviction that people needed to do things like my parents were doing. They need to stand up and speak out and you know when a lot of my mom’s clients would give birth to their babies I would go to the hospital with her and I would get to see the babies. So that laid the foundation for a deep-seated conviction.
A major turning point after that was my first year of university. I went to a conference for pro-life university students. And an American pro-life speaker by the name of Scott Klusendorf was brought up to Canada for this conference. And he made a statement that changed my life. He said, “There are more people working full time to kill babies than there are working full time to save them.” And in that moment I felt like the Holy Spirit had grabbed my heart and God was presenting to me this option. Will you work full time to save babies? And so, long story short, doors very clearly opened in the direction of full-time work in the pro-life movement and closed in the other directions that I was looking at. And so it just became abundantly clear that that was the path God was illuminating for me and I started speaking while in university on the topic and went full time in 2002.

Ryan McCurdy:
Wow. That’s incredible.

Stephanie Gray:
God is good.

Ryan McCurdy:
Yeah. That’s a beautiful story. I think so often that’s how we get into certain areas of calling, right, is we’re gripped with something and we need to talk about it. So what has been your experience talking about abortion. Are you receiving, obviously, lots of push back, but what do you think is at the crux of the issue for a lot of people who might think well, you know, the agenda of the secular west is that it’s my life, I’m an individual, and the individual is more important than anything. The individual is more important than the community and so why can’t I just get an abortion. What would you say to someone like that?

Stephanie Gray:
Several things. I would ask them, “Okay. Well if that’s what you think…” My big belief is that we need to ask questions to keep people engaged in the conversation. So I would ask them, “Okay. If that’s what you believe then at what point would you say the individual right to do something stops? So for example, would an individual be able to hurt a born child on the grounds that I’m an individual I can do whatever I want, so if I want to swing my arms and it happens to hit the head of a child that’s my right.” Or would you say, “No. The government ought to step in and say, ‘Your right to do as an individual what you want with your body ceases when you harm another body.’ Would you intervene then?” And if they would say, “Yes,” then I would say, “Okay. Well, what if a child wasn’t a newborn but instead was an eight month fetus a month away from being born? And would you be okay with a woman acting on an abortion then knowing that the child is so close to birth?” And if they say, “Well no. I’m uncomfortable with that. I’m only okay with first trimester abortion.” Then the whole point would be to keep moving them back to where science says life begins which is the moment of fertilization.
So I would say often that’s really the crux of the issue is that when I’m dialoguing with people, I consistently find that they don’t perceive the preborn child to be equal to a born child. And so the task for Pro-lifers is to use science and philosophy and human rights doctrines to establish the fact that if we believe all humans are equal since science has established beings that reproduce sexually begin their lives at fertilization. Then we ought to apply our belief in equality to that being at fertilization who we know has begun his or her life.

Ryan McCurdy:
Now I heard you say a term, I just want to ask this question. You used the term preborn instead of unborn.

Stephanie Gray:
Yes.

Ryan McCurdy:
Now is that intentional?

Stephanie Gray:
It is. It’s very intentional. I’m glad you picked up on that.

Ryan McCurdy:
Because I said unborn earlier and I’m curious what the distinction is.

Stephanie Gray:
Yes. So I mean technically unborn is accurate, you’re not born, essentially. But I’m a big believer and have definitely seen this throughout the years I’ve been working in the movement that language is so important and it’s so powerful. An audience member came up to me over 10 years ago and said, “I keep hearing you use the term unborn, but we never say unteenager. It’s like a term that almost seems like you’re not almost in existence as opposed to if you’re 12 years old, we’ll call you a pre-teen. It’s just before the next stage.” So he said, “What if you use the term preborn instead of unborn?” And I did like the ring to it. It sounded a little more humanizing and anything you can do to humanize the preborn child the better. So I made the transition.
I remember my first talk I was saying unborn and then correcting it with preborn. I was tripping over my language. But I eventually made the transition and the ministry I used to work for made the transition to the point that a lot of the organizations that I’m familiar with in Canada are now using preborn.
And another phrase a different audience member also brought up to me was to use the terms ‘the youngest of our kind’ when referring to the preborn child. And again, it’s very humanizing and it also shows that really the difference between the preborn and you or me is age. They’re just younger than us. They’re ‘the youngest of our kind.’ And that kind of language helps us, I think, connect better with the child.

Ryan McCurdy:
Yeah. And that’s something that actually comes up in your book. I pulled this quote out because I really appreciate it, and it’s talking about the preborn child being human not necessarily behaving human. It’s important, sounds like for you, that the essence of human is long before the age.

Stephanie Gray:
Yes. And that’s what I continually try to emphasize to my audience is that human rights are grounded in being human not as you said a few moments ago doing human things. Because if you think, well what distinguishes us from animals? Well, we have higher functioning with our brains. We’re rational. We’re conscious. We’re self-aware. But when I’m under anesthetic getting surgery done, I’m not rational, conscious, or self-aware in that moment. When I’m sleeping, I’m not rational, conscious, or self-aware the way I am right now in conversation with you. But if someone were to end my life while I’m sleeping or to end my life while I’m under anesthetic during surgery, we would consider those actions morally wrong because my right to life is grounded in my nature of being a human not in how I currently act. And so in the same way, we could argue the preborn child, the moment of fertilization is not rational conscious and self-aware. But by virtue of having human parents the preborn child has a human essence has a human nature and since human rights are grounded in the nature of the individual not the current abilities that child ought to be protected.

Ryan McCurdy:
And that’s a very Biblical, there’s a lot of Biblical precedence for this. The Imago Dei is a theme in the Book of Genesis, Chapter 1, where human kind was made in the image and likeness of God.

Stephanie Gray:
Yes.

Ryan McCurdy:
And so every human being has the thumbprint of God’s design in them. And by nature of that they have value.

Stephanie Gray:
Absolutely. And they’re image bearers so the preborn child doesn’t have to be rational, conscious, or self-aware to bear the image of God by virtue of existing that child like you or me or an elderly person or someone who’s disabled is an image bearer and therefore ought to be treated with the respect that is due of an image bearer.

Ryan McCurdy:
And that’s an interesting step that we would take is somebody who has mental or cognitive disabilities, what is the next step? Well, if we’re okay to abort preborn fetuses because of their lack of cognitive ability, what does that tell us about how we view each other or how we view people who have cognitive disabilities? Have you seen a lot of that come up in your teaching?

Stephanie Gray:
Yes. And you see it’s a dangerous slippery slope that when people value one another based on how we currently function, then they’re going to start devaluing born individuals who don’t currently function in a way that’s impressive enough for other individuals and so we’re starting to see as we’re going to be talking on another occasion about assisted suicide and other things that are arising where people are devaluing born individuals because they can’t function or accomplish the way other born individuals can. But again, us being image bearers, our value, our dignity, or human rights isn’t grounded in our current function.

Ryan McCurdy:
So one of the questions I would have for you would be, if you were having coffee and you’re sitting across the table with somebody who is at the point where they’re pregnant and they’re struggling, how would you handle that conversation and for our listeners what are some things that they could do to really walk alongside some people who are going through this?

Stephanie Gray:
So a few things. Really briefly where there is going to be more information than I can impart in one episode here is if people go to my website loveunleasheslife.com, on my blog actually recently posted a blog saying, ‘How to Communicate with a Friend Considering Abortion.’ And one of the first things I say that we ought to do is seek to understand. Where is this person coming from? Why are they feeling the way they’re feeling? So I would ask that person.
First of all I would validate that which can be validated. “This sounds overwhelming and I’m sorry that it’s so difficult for you right now. And because I care for you I want to be a help to you, and I want to learn how I can best help you. So one of the things I’m wondering is what are you most overwhelmed by?”
And then maybe they will open up and say, “Well, I don’t think I can provide for a child. I don’t have the financial means to do that.” It’s like, “Okay. Well, what if I were to help you, and I know of pregnancy care centers that offer free resources, cribs, strollers, all these kind of big ticket items that we get overwhelmed by. They offer those things for free. Would that be of help to you?” “Well, that would be of help, but I don’t know, can I really work and I’m gonna be a single mom, how do I work and provide for my child as well as care for my child?”
“Okay. So it sounds like you would need help with child care.” And then I would talk about how, “Okay. Can I connect you to a faith community, to my church where we could provide day care or support or what about locally, what kind of support we can look into that our government already provides for people who are in dire financial situations where there’s government funding for certain things like child care.”
So every concern the person would raise I would work to alleviate the situation through practical support and help. And what that will do is two things. It will potentially change the person’s mind and result in the child being saved and the mental well-being of this mother who will be working within her nature by protecting her preborn child. So you might just have a good outcome there. But if there’s resistance to that offer of help, then what that would tell me is that’s not the real reasons. So I need to keep understanding. I need to keep dig even deeper because if she’s claiming it’s resources and I’m providing resources and she still wants the abortion then there’s another reason. So maybe it’s, “Well, I don’t want people to know I’m pregnant. If I carry through with this pregnancy it’s gonna become visible. People are gonna know. I’m gonna feel shame in my church community or whatever.” It’s like, “Okay. Well let’s talk about that. Do you think that while the fear is understandable, do you think it’s founded?” Tell me more about your church community and whatever the case and you have to keep asking questions and one of the things that I often tell my audience is I can give you little ideas of what to ask. But at the end of the day you have to really work through the Holy Spirit, you asking the Holy Spirit for inspiration. Because I don’t know what the person’s gonna say to you in the moment, so I can’t tell you say this because they might not communicate something to you that would result in you asking that type of question. So it’s really just listening and asking for the Holy Spirit’s inspiration for what is best to be said to communicate love, compassion, and practical help.

Ryan McCurdy:
Yeah. And I think that piece there love, compassion, practical help, because one of the things that stands out to me about what you’re just saying here is that there’s some external and internal factors to why people would want not to have their preborn child born. Right?

Stephanie Gray:
You know, I would say from my experience of interacting with often providing guidance to people who are directly interacting with women in crisis. So sometimes I’ve directly interacted with women who are considering abortion but more often than not, I’ve got friends and different contacts calling me and saying, “Okay. My friend or this person I know is thinking this. What do I say? What do I do?” And so I’ve kind of helped form and guide them, I have seen time and again the initial comments made by the woman in crisis are about the material, the practical. But when my friends or myself dig deeper it really is the internal issue. And that’s often more of a challenge because the internal issues of fear and shame are such strong emotions that people want a quick out from those emotions and abortion seems like it’s gonna do that because it’s gonna be over very quickly.
And what we need to do is help people see beyond the present moment, help them see into a future that will not be the same depending on which choice they make. The results aren’t going to be equal. That the present choice to have an abortion is gonna create a future down the road that’s very different from the present choice to carry to term that will create a future down the road that’s more beautiful and optimistic and hopeful and rewarding.
And so our job really is to listen but to cast a vision often I find being good story tellers. Telling the story of people who’ve been in the crisis the woman herself is in and have chosen to look beyond the present moment into a future where they think, “Okay. Maybe with the right support I can do this.” And they’ve done it and they’ve carried their children to term and they’re happily parenting. Or they’ve placed a child for adoption, but it’s an open adoption, and they’re in touch with the child’s life. And to say, “Look, I’m not gonna pretend I can completely relate if I’ve not been in your situation. But this woman has and this woman has and this woman has and look what they did and they admit it was hard in the moment. But long term they’re so grateful that they made that choice. And this is what their story looks like.” And presenting those stories will help the woman see beyond the initial crisis into a future that’s hard for her to envision without someone else having been there first.

Ryan McCurdy:
Yeah. And you use this word crisis quite a bit. But one of the things that you do actually touch on briefly is the subject of rape and carrying a baby to full-term and delivering this child in the case where a woman has been raped and has gotten pregnant from rape. And these are some, let’s be honest, these are tough questions. Because a lot of times this woman has hurt and trauma, crisis related to the event that caused the pregnancy. How do you respond to that?

Stephanie Gray:
Well, we definitely as I talk in my book, we need to balance the head and the heart. There’s the logic that we need to communicate. When I’m just debating on the topic and people bring up the issue of rape is all I’ll simply ask, “Is it fair to give the death penalty to the innocent child?” That’s a consequence we don’t even give to the rapist. Certainly, in our country where the death penalty isn’t legal, but even in some American states where it’s legal, you don’t ever get the death penalty for rape. It’s considered life for life. So if you commit murder then you would get the death penalty. So we’re talking about a consequence for the innocent party that we’re not even giving to the guilty party.
But then often I have to dig a little deeper and find that people are often hyper-focused on an issue like rape because they themselves might be victims of sexual assault or someone close to them is. And so it’s not so much the question of them wondering is the baby human? They’re wondering if the pro-lifer is human. Do you care for me or my loved one who’s been assaulted as much as you are communicating you care for preborn children? And so that’s where we need to hold a firm position but go gently and ask questions and seek to understand and ask questions like, okay, when someone has been traumatized by sexual assault, that is a horror. There really aren’t words to capture how horrible that situation is. And one question we can ask ourselves separate from the one I gave a moment ago is this, “Will having an abortion if such a woman gets pregnant, will having an abortion unrape a rape victim? Will it take that trauma away? Will it take those memories away?” And the reality is we know it won’t. That whether she gets pregnant or not the sexual assault’s a trauma that’s gonna carry with her. Through counselling we can deal with that but it’s still gonna be something that she’s gonna have to carry with her for a very very long time.
So I think to make the point, it’s not gonna undo what has gone on. And that’s again where story telling is powerful. I have a friend, Leanna, who was raped at the age of 12. Growing up in Mexico City, she was kidnapped, held for a couple days and brutally raped repeatedly, found out she was pregnant and the doctor’s offered her an abortion. And remarkably the ability she had to ask a profound question at such a young age is incredible, but she looked at the doctor who offered her the abortion and she said, “If I have an abortion, will it take away all the bad feelings I have about what happened to me?” And so he had to answer honestly, “Well, technically, no, it won’t do that.” So she said in an interview, “Then I just didn’t see the point.” She said, “I knew I had a life inside of me. I knew that life needed me.” And she said, “I never thought about who her father was. I only thought about how she needed me and in a sense I needed her.”
And so again, incredibly, my friend carried though with this pregnancy, raised her child and one of the things that she often shares is that as a result of the sexual assault, she experienced temptation to suicide because she was so overwhelmed by the trauma. She never felt clean no matter how many times she showered, she always felt dirty. And so she was tempted to kill herself. But she said, “You know, the reason I didn’t kill myself was because I was pregnant and I didn’t want to kill the child.” And so she said to me, “Yeah. I saved my daughter’s life, but she saved mine. Her very presence gave me a will and the motivation to live that had I not been pregnant after the sexual assault, I might not be here because I might have killed myself.”
And so she has managed to change her perspective on a situation that most people would say is why we need abortion, and she’s able to say, “Actually, this child transformed my life and made my life better.” And so telling stories like that is again proof that it’s possible to choose the pro-life way. Yes, of course, people are raped, get pregnant and have abortions. But let me tell you about the people who are raped, get pregnant and don’t. And so it is possible to have this alternative path and what do those people say.

Ryan McCurdy:
It’s such a powerful story. A story of hope. I think one of the things that sticks out to me is that it’s not easy.

Stephanie Gray:
Right.

Ryan McCurdy:
But it sounds like what you’re saying the reward of life goes beyond the circumstances and the challenges even if we don’t always see it.

Stephanie Gray:
Yeah. I’m reminded of a movie, ‘Life is Beautiful.’ It was about the Holocaust and that’s what often what I’ll tell my audiences, I as a pro-lifer am not presenting to you the idea that life is easy, but I am presenting to you the idea that life is beautiful, even in the hard, even in the challenging, even in the difficult. If we choose the path which is right which is other-oriented, then we will find it’s a beautiful path even amidst the difficulty and the challenge and the hardship. And that’s really what these stories prove. It’s like, right. This isn’t about selling an easy message. It’s about selling a right, a life-affirming and beautiful message.

Ryan McCurdy:
What I appreciate so much about your message is that it’s tied to action: love, compassion, practical needs. And I think so often especially in the church we can be very concerned with belief and theology and you have to do the right thing. You have to think the right thing. But I’m not gonna help you with that. That’s up to you to figure out. And it sounds like some of that organizations that you’re a part of and the speaking engagements is, “Hey, we as a church want to help you. We want to walk with you in this. We don’t want to leave you abandoned. We don’t want leave you alone.” And so how can organizations or individuals get involved to help with people in this situation?

Stephanie Gray:
Yes. It’s huge for churches that they can walk with women through the pregnancy and beyond by connecting with moms in their churches who want to be mom mentor’s who can help young women who maybe haven’t been given a good example of how to be a mom and the practicals of every day life and of raising children and really journey with them. So churches could set up programs within their church and then connect with a local pregnancy center and say, “As you have clients come to you who need more than the professional help you offer but need a friend, someone to journey with them. Please connect them to our church because we have set up this network of women who meet regularly and will journey with women.” And let the pregnancy centre know that you offer that and they can call on you.
But even within the church, once you start talking about something like that that you as a church community are developing a program then people within the church are gonna realize, “Okay, maybe I can ask for help that I was afraid to ask for.” So the more we talk about abortion then the more someone in the church who’s in a crisis pregnancy and inclined to cover up their sex sin with an abortion will think, “Okay, my church is gonna be open because they talked about it and they’re gonna be helpful because they’ve mentioned that they have resources here so now I’m gonna carry to term as a result of this.” So I think that’s really key.

Ryan McCurdy:
I was gonna ask is there anything that you’d like to comment on?

Stephanie Gray:
Well the only thing that came to mind as a result of our conversation in that document that I wrote ‘How to Communicate with a Friend Considering Abortion,’ when I go through the steps the last thing I say is there comes a point where you might of tried everything that I’m suggesting and more and the friend is like, “I’m still gonna go ahead with this.” And they say, “But I’m not allowed to go alone. They don’t let me leave the clinic alone. Will you go with me?” And a lot of even Christians will think, “Well, I guess I should just go because I don’t want them to be alone.” And so my counsel is actually just the opposite is we humans while we’re made for relationship we don’t like to be alone and therefore there are some moments where we shouldn’t be alone such as you’re in a crisis pregnancy, you need a community around you. But when we’re committing sin we actually need to experience the aloneness that comes from departing from God’s plan in hopes that we might actually not depart from God’s plan. And so the last-ditch effort to actually convince someone not to abort is to say, “Because I love you I can’t go with you. Because I love you I see into the future and I’m afraid you’re going to regret this and you will rightly come back to me if I accompany you and say, ‘Why did you come with me if you knew this was wrong?’ And so because I love you I won’t go.” And that thought of I will be alone might be the only thing that convinces them not to abort.

Ryan McCurdy:
One question I want to ask you is this, in the faith community if you were speaking with a follower of Jesus and they said to you, “You know, I’m pro-abortion.”

Stephanie Gray:
Right. So a few things I would ask them, “Why are you pro-abortion?” Another good open-ended question is to ask when they first learned about abortion and what they thought then? And if their position changed and why? The other thing I would do is ask them what they think Jesus thinks about abortion or what they think Jesus thinks about human life in general. And then I would have a conversation about the fact that when Christ came to suffer, die, and rise from the dead that he didn’t do all of that for dogs. He didn’t do all of that for fish. He only did that for human beings and that of all of creation, it’s human creation that was very good when everything else was just good. So if what sets us apart and why Christ came for us and not others is that we’re made in the image of God, then wouldn’t it follow from the moment we exist that that image is stamped within our nature.
The other thing I would do is I would ask them to consider when Jesus entered into the human experience what stage of humanity did he enter into it as? And although we celebrate Christmas as we ought to, the reality is Christ entered into the human experience nine months prior to Christmas and my favorite scripture passage that reinforces the existence of life before birth is in Luke 1, when Mary goes to visit her cousin Elizabeth just after the angel Gabriel had come to her and when Mary enters Elizabeth’s home, John the Baptist leaps in Elizabeth’s womb for joy. And I always like to ask people why did John the Baptist a late term fetus leap in Elizabeth’s womb for joy when Mary happened to walk into the house? Why did that happen? Let’s not consider that it happened but explore why.
And the answer is because when Mary walked into Elizabeth’s home she didn’t walk in alone. She was like a human tabernacle bearing God almighty in the form of the early embryo. And it’s this late term fetus that recognizes God in human form in the first trimester embryo, and that’s why he leapt for joy. Mary’s bringing Jesus into the home and he’s reacting to the presence of the Christ child. So if Jesus entered into the human experience in the form of the embryo, then doesn’t that tell us that when we enter into the human experience as an embryo that we’re human as well.

Ryan McCurdy:
That’s a beautiful example. And so Stephanie Gray, thank you for being on here today. It’s been a joy to have you.

Stephanie Gray:
You’re welcome. Thanks for having me.

Ryan McCurdy:
Thank you for joining us on this episode of indoubt with Stephanie Gray. You can follow Stephanie Gray and the ministry of Love Unleashes Life at loveunleasheslife.com.
If indoubt has encouraged you and you’re passionate to help others grow in the truth, we want to welcome you to partner with us. As we continue to provide resources, we depend on the generosity and partnership of people just like you to help communicate the good news of Jesus to a world that needs him. You can also find out more about indoubt at indoubt.ca if you’re in Canada and indoubt.com if you’re in the United States. Stay connected with us for next week’s episode as we are joined again by Stephanie Gray for part two of our conversation where we talk about medically assisted suicide. So we’ll see you next week.

Kourtney Cromwell:
indoubt ministries exist to bring a Biblical perspective into the relevant issues of life, faith, and culture that young adults face every day. For more information check out indoubt.ca if you live in Canada and indoubt.com if you live in the US.