Ep. 012: CHRISTIAN CANCEL CULTURE?!?! w/ David Schuman

Andrew Marcus:

Hey, this is Andrew Marcus from THE INDOUBT SHOW. We got a great episode for you today. We have David Schuman all the way in Manhattan, New York. He’s going to be joining us over Zoom, and we got to talk about two of his articles that he’s written for the Gospel Coalition. One about people to avoid and one about what to do when 2023 gets tough. And these are both very important topics. We talk about how they coexist together, and so we hope you’re encouraged, you’re blessed today, and that you enjoy the show. God bless. All right, well, we have David Schuman on the call right now. David, how are you doing?

David Schuman:

Yeah, thanks so much for having me. I’m doing well.

Andrew Marcus:

Awesome. And you’re hailing all the way from Manhattan?

David Schuman:

Indeed.

Andrew Marcus:

Which is crazy. I’ve been there once and I made the mistake of driving in downtown because I thought it’d be a good idea to just have our own car. Then I realized this is a terrible idea. And I-

David Schuman:

It’s a mistake you only make once.

Andrew Marcus:

It’s a mistake you only make once. Yeah, I made that mistake once. So next time I visit, if I come to visit you one day, remind me to walk.

David Schuman:

Yeah, take a plane and take a train. Yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah, a plane and train and walk. Get your runners. That’s amazing. David, you’ve been on the show quite recently. It was August of last year. So is there anything new that’s happened since you were on the show last, and you can fill us in and what you’re doing and what life looks like for you?

David Schuman:

Yeah. Let’s see. Well, my son is still young. He just turned 16 months yesterday.

Andrew Marcus:

Okay. Amazing.

David Schuman:

But a lot changes in that amount of time with a kid that age. So now he’s running all over the place. And I think it was only a couple weeks ago, we went to Central Park and he walked outside for the first time, so that was-

Andrew Marcus:

Oh, amazing.

David Schuman:

Yeah, so he’s changing a lot, learning a lot. We’re having a really good time. And we also since then have started with the very beginning stages of adopting a second kid.

Andrew Marcus:

Oh, cool. Wow.

David Schuman:

So we have finished all of our paperwork to be approved by the state to adopt, and then they processed it. And we have to meet with some social workers and stuff. So it’s still probably a year, maybe a year and a half or even two years out, bu we’re beginning stages of adopting.

Andrew Marcus:

That’s amazing, man. Do you have a specific place? God’s calling or a location?

David Schuman:

Yeah, we’re looking just domestically. Okay. Domestic is very expensive, but it’s even more looking abroad.

Andrew Marcus:

Okay. Wow. That’s amazing. My wife has a huge heart for that. We’ve been talking through what that could look like, but internationally it’s like 5, 6, 7 years. So you go through the process for so long, not even knowing the kid’s probably not even born yet. And so it’s like it’s a long and expensive journey, man.

David Schuman:

Yeah, definitely.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah. Wow. Good for you guys. That’s so amazing, man. And so 16 month old, so running around now. I remember when my kids were little and they weren’t mobile, it was nice. You just set it and forget it, walk away. Yeah, they can just sit there. Now it’s like, nope, you got to run around.

David Schuman:

It’s nice.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah, no, it’s game over, man. That’s amazing. Now you got to get all the little cupboard things so they close all the cupboards.

David Schuman:

Yeah, we’re just in a one bedroom apartment, so we have to childproof the whole everywhere, our entire house. So actually just last night I was like, you know what? I can’t do any work with him jumping. He jumps on the couch now, but he is not doing it very safely. He will hurt himself. So I had to actually had to block off our already small apartment and half of it is blocked off now. He can’t even use that because I can’t get any work done over there with him jumping around. If I sit there, he is slapping on my computers like, oh man. So poor guy now has, I don’t know, maybe a hundred, 200 square feet, maybe less actually.

Andrew Marcus:

It’s perfect, man. It’s perfect. He has no idea. He loves it.

David Schuman:

Exactly. He doesn’t know any better, so it’s fine.

Andrew Marcus:

Totally. When we buy Christmas gifts, they throw the toys away and just play with the rappers in the boxes. It’s like, you know what? I could have just wrapped nothing, man. Why are we spending money on toys?

David Schuman:

Exactly.

Andrew Marcus:

They’re so simple and so beautiful. They actually teach us a lot. I’ve learned a lot just watching my kids and I’m sure you do too. So tell me when you’re working, so kids jumping, what are you doing for work? Tell us, just fill us in again for new listeners, what you do for work.

David Schuman:

Yeah, So I’m a pastor at, it’s called Exilic Church. It’s a Presbyterian church here in Manhattan. And thankfully most mornings I have a babysitter and then in the afternoon it’s all on my own, trying to work in and watch him at the same time. And then I usually work pretty much every evening I’m doing something as well, counseling or leading a group or some other meeting. But yeah, so pastor at a church here in Manhattan.

Andrew Marcus:

Awesome, man, that’s amazing. You’re quadruple dipping all the things you’re doing. Yeah. That’s amazing, man. Praise God. Okay, I’d love to walk through a few of your articles that you’ve written recently. I’ve been reading, I read both of them and both of them stuck out in a sense that they connect together, but they are standalone. And so I thought maybe we can talk about both of them, talk about each one individually and see how they connect, if that’s cool. So one of them was how to hold on to faith. And especially when 2023 gets tough. I know we always say, oh man, 2022 was really rough. I can’t wait for next year as if January 1st hits and it’s all going to change, not the reality. I think we’re in for some tough times still. And so how to hold on to faith when 2023 gets tough. You gave some warnings that Paul gives to Timothy in one of his letters. Can we walk through that and see how that connects to 2023 today for us?

David Schuman:

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And really quick first too. I think you’re definitely right that these articles are connected. They both are condensed versions of a couple sermons I preach from second Timothy three, and they’re both tied together by the main point of that whole chapter is verse one, where it says in the last day will come times of difficulty and the last days are just between Jesus’ first and second coming. So it’s where we are still today. And all these days will be difficult including 2023, including 2024. It’s going to be difficult times. So the one that you mentioned, that article is based on the second part of chapter three, and specifically it’s warning us against two things. So one is in verse 12, it says that all who desire to live a godly life in Jesus Christ will be persecuted. So everywhere up until the second coming of Christ is going to be some amount of persecution.

And so Paul actually talks a little bit in this part about what that looked like for him. So for him, at its worst, it led all the way to him being stoned and left for dead. You could read about that in the book of Acts. For most of us, that probably won’t happen good, probably won’t for most of us listening, but certainly there is still going to be some amount of persecution. It says all who desire to live a Godly life will be persecuted. So for us, maybe that looks like being called a bigot or being gossiped about behind our back, or it could also look like maybe a loss of job opportunities, maybe even losing a client, maybe even losing a job. Those sorts of things I think are very much in the realm of a possibility for us even here in the US and in Canada. I think those things definitely happen.

So that’s the first thing he warns us about is that no matter what, it might vary what it looks like, but we’re all going to experience some amount of persecution. So that’s why it’s difficult. The second thing that he warns us about is in verse 13, it says, while evil people and imposters will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. So he says that there’s going to be these false teachers. He introduces us to them earlier in chapter three as well, and that’s what he tells us to avoid those people, which we’ll get to later I’m sure. But here he says, there are these people who are cause of evil and imposters and they attemp to deceive us. So there’s false teaching that tries to deceive us and lure us away from the truth.

And that is very much a thing today as well. It’s specifically Paul’s warning us against false teachers who he says in verse five that they have an appearance of godliness, but they deny its power. That is, they deny the power of God to actually change our lives. And so as a result, they’re living this very ungodly lifestyle, even though they’re claiming to be Christians. And so that’s an important warning for us today. I think we need to pay close attention to whatever pastors and teachers we listen to or whatever churches we’re going to. We need to compare what they say to scripture and we need to compare their lifestyles to scripture as well.

And of course, that’s not to say that any pastor’s going to be perfect. If you compared my lifestyle to scripture, you wouldn’t want to come to my church necessarily. So it’s not to say that I’m perfect or anybody else’s perfect, not even close. But we need to find pastors and friends who are at least swapping for that and who are inspiring us to live lives of holiness and urging us to do that rather than condoning an ungodly lifestyle and even encouraging people towards that. So those are the two things that he warns us about in that second part of chapter three.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah, that’s so good. And I think it’s so important, actually earlier on this show, because we have a show where we have opening segments and post segments and then interviews are part of it. So that’s changed with INDOUBT, but we go through a segment called Dangerous Doctrines and we read a quote of, “Hey, this is a popular doctrine that’s going out right now, and here is why it is something that you should not be following and believing, and here’s what the Bible actually says.” And so we’re going to unashamedly be speaking truth because there’s a lot of churches as you know and as I know that are teaching anything but the gospel these days. And it’s just important to get people aware of that. We don’t want to name drop or call out people, but we’re just saying, here’s a teaching. So if you hear this teaching, if it sounds like this and you’re sitting in the pews run out the door.

David Schuman:

Yeah, that’s amazing then.

Andrew Marcus:

It’s really important. It’s really important. But when Paul is giving these warnings, is he talking specifically only about false teachers preachers or is he saying anyone who’s not living a godly lifestyle or calling themselves Christians and just not living it out, avoid those people too? Or is he just saying avoid the people who are at the pulpit?

David Schuman:

Yeah, I think he probably especially has in mind false teachers, but certainly at the very least we can broaden that and apply it beyond that. And one thing that’s important to say, so he’s talking about people, the key part is that in verse five, people have the appearance of godliness but deny it’s power. First of all, he is not talking about skeptics or people who are exploring Christianity, that’s not appearance of godliness. And he is also not talking about people who are just struggling with sin. I said that I am as well. He’s talking about people who rather than struggling with sin, have embraced their sin. They’ve denied the power of God to change their hearts. And so that’s an important qualification. And so I think we can certainly at the very least, apply that broader than just pastors. That’s probably what he has maybe primarily in mind, but certainly it’s broader than that.

And I think all the way to the point of certainly we should consider our friendships, do our friends encourage us towards godly living or not in terms of if they’re claiming to be Christians, are they claiming to be Christians but actually encouraging us to live in an ungodly way or are they striving as best as they can to live a godly life? And does that encourage us towards the same? I think that’s important application.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah, that’s huge. And I feel like when I think about it, a lot of people say, oh, you shouldn’t be hanging out with sinners or this or that, whatever. And it’s okay, well, you see Jesus sitting down with tax collectors, et cetera. But then when we talk about this, they have the appearance of godliness, but are in no way living out a godly life. He’s actually saying avoid them. Yeah. It almost seems like there’s a form of a Christian cancel culture. It’s not just a worldly thing. Maybe we actually ought to be a part of it in a way, which seems crazy, but the text is showing that maybe there is a cancel culture that we’re actually supposed to be a part of.

David Schuman:

Yeah. I think you’re right. I think the original cancel culture, so another important thing to mention is it’s not something we come to lightly. And so even if you’re looking at the broader context, just the few verses before Paul says to avoid such people, he tells Timothy, he says, you need to be patient with your opponents and gently rebuke them. So there’s very much this picture of he’s not saying somebody does something wrong and you instantly cancel them, which is a little bit maybe more akin to some of our cancel culture, not necessarily, but maybe more akin to that. Paul is saying, no, you’re pleading with these people to repent. You’re praying for them, you’re being gentle with them. And if they still aren’t repenting, then eventually there comes this day when we should avoid such people. So it’s not something to arrive at quickly, and it’s not really something to arrive at as just an individual either that should happen in the context of talking with other Christian friends, talking with pastors and elders and churches and stuff.

But eventually there is this time where, no, these people are claiming to be Christians, but they’re not living that way. They don’t have the fruit of repentance, then we should avoid these people. And so I would say a lot of scholars, and I would agree, this probably actually refers to excommunication so formally saying, the church is saying we don’t think you’re a Christian because we’ve urged you to repent for days, weeks, months, maybe even years. We’ve been urging you to repent and you haven’t. So we don’t think you’re a Christian. So avoid such people.

Andrew Marcus:

Huge man. Huge. And I wonder what the process is. You were saying days, months, years, I guess there’s no real X amount of weeks. And if they don’t, give up on them. There’s probably no right or wrong, I guess. You just have to discern and just thinking of the young person who’s listening right now, who’s hanging out with some people who call themselves godly or love the Lord, yet they’re living totally backwards from what those scriptures are saying. There’s the pleading, there’s the patience, there’s the grace. I wonder when is it where you say, okay, you know what, it’s just not working.

David Schuman:

Yeah. That’s a good question. And I think you’re right. Scripture I don’t think gives us, or it definitely doesn’t give us a definitive X number of-

Andrew Marcus:

Totally.

David Schuman:

So I think it depends, because it also can depend on severity too, and there’s so many different variables. So I think it leaves wisdom. I would say scripture does give us a process, so it’s not as clearly outlined here. It’s more simplified in that we should plead with somebody. And Paul’s writing this to Timothy who was a pastor. So that’s already saying, okay, well, the church is aware of this and the church is pleading, but a place like Matthew 18 lays it out a little bit more clearly, that there’s ideally these steps. In that context, if somebody has offended me, so could maybe be slightly different than here. But the same principles I think apply that we first should plead with that person one-on-one, just privately, gently, humbly like, “Hey, I feel like you’re living in this Senate and I think you should repent of it.”

And hopefully they repent. They respond positively. If they don’t, the next step Jesus tells us is he says, well, take two or three other people with you, two or three other Christians, and all of you plead with this person to repent. And I don’t think that necessarily means only once either. That might be for months just at that one step, months of people pleading with this person to repent. And then if that doesn’t work, then you take it to the church, you take it to Timothy, you take it to whoever your pastor is, and then the whole church, the pastor and the elders are pleading with this person, repent. And only after that, if they still don’t repent, that’s when we get to this point of avoiding such people.

So yeah, it’s definitely meant to be a long process because we all have hard hearts. I repent the first time somebody tells me something I wish, but definitely not. And so God is gracious to us in that, and he is patient and he calls us to be patient as well. So it’s a long process, but eventually there is a time that this is a serious thing, and if people are going to be leading this astray, then we need to or persecuting us or whatever, then we need to avoid these kinds of people.

Andrew Marcus:

That’s huge. And a good reminder of the grace and mercy we have been given. Always remember that, for our listeners, how much grace and mercy and patience the Lord has given you and continues to give you. Go and do likewise. Don’t be quick to just cancel the way that our culture cancels. Just so quick. One mistake, boom, you’re done. See you later. Never want to talk to you again. That’s not what the Bible’s saying, that’s not how we avoid such people.

David Schuman:

Yeah. It’s humble to remember all that, and that should make us as we’re humble, gentle, and long suffering.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah. That’s huge. That’s really hard for me because I don’t know, maybe because of what culture is doing these days, but I’m just starting to get a little more fed up and maybe less patient when I see people so openly mocking or going against the way of God to just say, fine, I’m done with you. Maybe that’s my heart needing to be a little bit softened.

David Schuman:

I think that’s important. It’s good to recognize where’s my tendency, and for me, I probably more than that tendency as well. I need to be, my heart needs to be more softened. Somebody else, maybe a different listener is maybe they actually do need to take a little bit more of a drastic step. I think it’s important to recognize where we are, like, ah, maybe I actually do need to take this a little bit more seriously than I am. Or if I’m on this side, maybe I need to be more patient. I think that’s good to have that self-awareness and be like, okay, maybe where do I need to lean more towards?

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah, that’s huge. And so I encourage everyone who’s listening right now, just in quiet time with the Lord, search your heart, see what’s going on. And maybe there’s some ways you need to be softened. Maybe you’re too soft and you need to harden a little bit. I don’t know. It’s this weird balance of take it seriously with love and grace and patience and humility, but take it seriously. I think that’s the main thing. And I think that’s with people in our lives, correct me if I’m wrong, where we see them walking in a godless way, we want to be patient. Now, as far as someone who’s preaching false teaching, how much patience and mercy do you need to have on someone who is openly professing things that are not found in the Bible?

David Schuman:

Yeah. And I think you’re right. That can be a very different situation because it’s maybe not somebody to have a personal relationship with. And so even if I wanted to, I might not even be able to contact this person and sit down with him and say, “Hey, pastor, I think you’re preaching something that’s wrong.” You might not even be able to, not to mention, that’s a pretty intimidating conversation.

Andrew Marcus:

Of course.

David Schuman:

So yeah, I think that is a different situation. And I think if that’s the case, it’s mostly about, okay, let me compare what they’re teaching to what I see in scripture, and let me talk about it with other people, with other friends, with pastors. Like, “Hey, do you think this is true?” Especially if it’s something… So one of the things that’s highlighted in this chapter, and one of the things that we learn about these specific false teachers that Paul has in mind is that they’re always trying to teach something new. We see that in a couple places. One is in verse 13, so it says, well, evil people and imposters will go on from bad to worse. Because that was the ESV translation. The word in the Greek is actually progress. They progress from bad to worse. And Paul’s actually using it ironically.

He actually uses that same verb ironically, three times in this letter or three times up until this point in this letter. He’s saying they claim they’re progressing, but actually they’re just going from bad to worse. And we see that also earlier in verse seven where it says, it’s talking about the people that these false teachers are leading astray. And these people who, whom they lead astray, are always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth. They’re always learning something new. They think they’re progressing, but actually what they’re doing is going from bad to worse. So especially if you hear a teacher, a pastor, whatever, saying like, here’s this new insight about who God is, or here’s this new way to think about God or rethink this traditional Christian ethical claim. When you hear that, especially you’re really cautious about what you hear next.

And maybe it could be true, but you’re really cautious and compare to scripture, talk about it with other people whose knowledge of God you trust and see, is this actually just a better way to think about this, or is this wrong? Certainly, at least be cautious, especially when somebody claims to have some new insight or something.

Andrew Marcus:

Wow. It’s huge because I hear statements like that in churches often like, God gave me this specifically, or here’s a new thing. It’s like, and everyone leans in. And it’s like, oh, you might need to lean back and just-

David Schuman:

Yeah, it should be opposite.

Andrew Marcus:

It should be the opposite. Don’t lean in and get excited about some new insight, lean back and say, oh, no, what’s actually going on here? And that should be a little bit of a red flag. Now, the term progressive, of course, we hear that in a lot of context culturally. We’re talking specifically about a progressive approach to doctrines and theology. Earlier this year, we had a interview with Dr. John Newfeld. We were talking about how the seeker sensitive movement, they’re trying to progress and do the latest and greatest and reinvent the wheel every 10 years. And you’re just reinventing to be hip and cool, which also has some dangers, in my opinion. It might not be the best approach, but we’re talking not specifically about how church looks and sounds and feels and the names of their community groups, and they change it to different names or whatever to be cool. But we’re talking specifically about doctrine and theology and saying, Hey, here’s something new that might not be in your Bible, but God told me specifically,

David Schuman:

So Exactly. Yeah. And it is not to say, Hey, maybe this is a good way to think about it. So listen, we can listen when somebody says, I have this new way of thinking about this, but it should be a lean back. I like what you said. It’s not a lean in like, “Oh, cool, something new and exciting.” It should be a lean back and really cautious. Is this true? Maybe it is, but I should be really cautious. It should be a red, not something you get excited about. And it’s so hard because especially in our culture today, throughout history hasn’t always been this way, but especially today, we’re always, we’re so much more excited about something new. And it’s not just the, like you mentioned, seeker movements part of it, but so it’s so much farther than that. What do we get excited about? The newest thing, the newest technology.

I got to have the newest thing, especially maybe even hyper sensitivity in that way, and the place New York City. Because so many things are on the cutting edge and okay, wow. So we get caught up in everything new, and sometimes it can be good, but we need to be a little bit more cautious potentially than we sometimes are. So for example, it’s great that we can have this technology here like this that you and I can talk and have to fly and then drive to get here or take a train. Would it be recommendation?

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah, never again, man. Never again.

David Schuman:

So we can have this conversation without that, which is amazing. But then we also are coming to realize, well, at the same time, some of our obsession with screens can actually be a negative thing too. It can lead to loneliness and anxiety. And so hopefully we’re starting to realize a little bit more, okay, not everything new is good. Sometimes it is, oftentimes it is. But let’s not just unquestionably uncritically embrace something new. So that’s a temptation at large. And so that comes into play in our theology as well. We’re attempted, especially by something new because we’re used to being excited about something new. But with theology, it’s like, no, don’t ever say anything new. It’s more the-

Andrew Marcus:

It’s not new and improved with theology. It’s new and, I don’t know, not improved, whatever.

David Schuman:

So one quote that comes to mind, I went to a seminary called Westminster Seminary, and it came out of Princeton Seminary, which has since become a pretty liberal seminary, but originally it was not. And one of the early presidents of the seminary, Charles Hodge in my circles, he famously said this, it’s a bit of a nerdy reference. I don’t expect anybody else to know this, but he famously said that, no new idea has ever come out of this seminary. So he’s saying this in this academic world where the temptation even at that time was very much say new things like theologically as well. The temptation and the thrust of a lot of the academic world at the time was, oh, Jesus, these are all just myths. Jesus didn’t really rise from the dead. Let’s just think about the ethical implications of this. And it’s all just an analogy. It’s all just a story that we should learn from. It didn’t actually happen. And he’s saying, no new idea ever came out of our seminary. That’s more in line with what we should think about theology.

Andrew Marcus:

It’s really eye-opening. And I hope that our listeners are just aware that, you know what? Maybe there’s someone in your life and you’re watching or listening on a podcast and you’re like, man, I know that this person is actually leading me astray, or I need to have some hard conversations. It’s important to do so. I think we need to protect ourselves, and the truth needs to be the truth, and the truth is always the truth and the truth isn’t changing. The truths we find in scripture are of course a very offensive today. And so we’re trying to change it a bit to be less offensive, but it just needs to stand as is. We don’t add anything. We don’t take anything away. And that, I guess means maybe eventually avoiding certain people in your life or certain teaching or preachers, or maybe you have to find a new church. But there are drastic steps sometimes that we need to graciously take and humbly take.

David Schuman:

Yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

Man. What would you say as we close to the young person who might need to make some of these hard decisions?

David Schuman:

Yeah, I think I like what you’re saying, how we have this hope that it will turn out differently. So I think it’s instructive too. What the Apostle Paul says of second Corinthians. He says that he wrote to them out of his abundant love for them. He says, not to cause you pain, but in order that you might know my abundant love for you. So it really is the most loving thing we can do when we see a brother or sister in Christ living in sin to gently, and he says, with many tears, he says, call them to repent. And I think maybe in closing one other quick thing, it’s such an important thing to remember. That’s what God has done for us too. So the apostle Paul, he wrote to them this letter to rebuke them, hoping that they would repent and come to experience salvation and reconciliation with him and with God. That’s what God has done for too. He’s giving us his inspired word and he is done it so that we might know his abundant love for him and that we might repent of our sin and experience salvation without regret.

And he’s done that out of much affliction as well, with many tears. He gave his life for us, that we might experience that salvation without regretting. So that’s an important anchoring and an important hope to hold to in the midst of these difficult conversations.

Andrew Marcus:

David, thank you so much for your time and just all the best. We look forward to connecting again.

David Schuman:

Yeah, thank you so much, Andrew. Take care.

Andrew Marcus:

Hey, thanks so much for joining us today. For more great content, check out THE INDOUBT SHOW on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Music, or wherever you stream your podcast. We hope you enjoyed it today. Feel free to check out indoubt.ca. We have some great resources available to you. Have an awesome day.