Ep. 164: When Worship Isn’t Working

Kourtney Cromwell:
Welcome to the indoubt podcast where we explore the challenging topics that young adults often face. Each week we talk with guests who help answer questions of faith, life, and culture connecting them to our daily experiences and God’s word. For more info on indoubt, visit indoubt.ca or indoubt.com.

Ryan McCurdy:
Hey, everyone. It’s so good to be with you today. My name is Ryan and I’m really excited about this episode ahead as we have Andrew Marcus with us today. Andrew’s a really good friend of mine and today we’re talking about worship and what it means to be a worship leader in today’s culture. What does worship mean? What is worship about? It’s so easy to show up to church and expect an experience from music, right? To expect that the music’s gonna sound the way we want it, but when you don’t connect, sometimes with worship, people feel disappointed.
So, Andrew and I talk about this and how different influences shape what we understand worship music and music and worship to be about and we talk about getting to the heart of worship and understanding that the heart of worship isn’t achieved by having perfect sounding music. So, here we go. Take a listen. Hope you enjoy this episode.

Ryan McCurdy:
All right. With me on this episode of indoubt is a really, really close friend of mine. His name is Andrew Marcus and Andrew and I we… you and I have been friends for a long time, but Andrew is a Worship Pastor at Coquitlam Alliance Church. He is a singer/songwriter and he’s written multiple albums. He has travelled the world leading followers of Jesus in worship. And Andrew, as far as I’ve known him, has always been passionate about helping Christians worship and worship well. And so, Andrew, thanks so much for being with us today. I am truly excited for this.

Andrew Marcus:
Yeah. Thanks, man. I’m really excited for this too.

Ryan McCurdy:
Like, even in the time that we’ve been on the call already today, I’ve laughed so hard that I’ve cried.

Andrew Marcus:
You’re just very sensitive.

Ryan McCurdy:
Oh, yeah. Well, we’ve been friends for how long now? Is it what? Ten years or more?

Andrew Marcus:
Yeah, probably.

Ryan McCurdy:
That’s crazy. Time flies.

Andrew Marcus:
Yeah.

Ryan McCurdy:
We both have young kids. Tell us about Benjamin. How old is he?

Andrew Marcus:
He’s nine months.

Ryan McCurdy:
Yeah.

Andrew Marcus:
Like, four or five days ago he crawled for the first time before he was nine months. He was eight months at the time. He’s crawling now. He’s walking on furniture. He’s just the cutest little guy ever. We’re really blessed.

Ryan McCurdy:
Parenting is a joy. One of the things I want to ask you, Andrew is what are some of the things God is teaching you in life and in ministry? You know, you’ve been writing worship music for a long time now. What is that like now? How has God grown up in you in the faith as a worship leader?

Andrew Marcus:
I mean, God has obviously been teaching me a lot these days. I’m kind of getting geared up to work on a new record and honestly every time I go through this process I feel the same way. Tons of discouragement. Should I even be doing this? The music industry has changed so much. Is it even worth it? Spend all this money, do all this, blah, blah, blah. So, it’s a lot of resistance. It’s actually really cool now that I think about it. This last Sunday I was like very discouraged over the weekend, and I’m like, “I don’t know if I should do this.” I had like five random people come up to me on Sunday morning with different stories of just how songs have ministered to them and helped them in their seasons of life. I mean, I write songs for congregational worship, but it’s cool to see God take it beyond that. So, I was just so encouraged and reminded, man, I just need to keep pursuing even if it’s hard, even if it’s expensive, even if I feel like nothing’s happening.
So, the process begins to write and to be creative and write songs that encourage people and remind people who God is, what He’s done. So, I’m excited about it. I’m excited about the resistance now, ’cause I’m learning quickly, “Hey, this is a good resistance.”

Ryan McCurdy:
What would worship, like how would you explain worship? Like, what is worship like for you? How would you express that to other people?

Andrew Marcus:
Yeah. I always tell people, like we automatically associate worship with music all the time. That’s our language. Even me being a Worship Pastor, we’re obviously talking about music. The reality is a lot of people know this, worship is not about songs we sing or about anything. It’s really a lifestyle. Romans 12:1-2. Take your everyday life. The message says you’re eating, sleeping, walking around, working, and offer to God this is your spiritual worship. This is your worship. So, we worship God in everything we do. So, worship is a lifestyle. So, technically I’m a Worship Pastor, I’m a Lifestyle Pastor.

Ryan McCurdy:
Oh, yeah.

Andrew Marcus:
So, even when we say, “Hey, Church. Why don’t we stand up and let’s worship?” Let’s do life for 30 minutes, and then we will sit. In our culture, we just take that word and we use it not in the right context. So, for me, worship is just the Monday through Saturday as well, how we respond to things, how we give God our jobs and our families, and how we worship by raising our kids, and then all that overflows into song, whether we gather, whether we sing throughout the week.

Ryan McCurdy:
Yeah. I’m curious. Why song? You know, like why song? There’s that Leonard Cohen song, “I heard there was a secret code.”

Andrew Marcus:
Keep going.

Ryan McCurdy:
That’s too low for my register.

Andrew Marcus:
Then go higher.

Ryan McCurdy:
Uh, no. It’s okay. He says that David played in it to please the Lord. Right? And David’s known as this like, this guy that worships God and he gives his all and he’s known as a man who’s after God’s heart. His avenue through which he would worship was music, right? And so as a Worship Pastor, we’ve already talked about how there’s many avenues through which we can worship. Why is music so powerful or so prominent to you? Like, why do you think that it is in our culture? But I think it’s all cultures, right? Like, the people walk through the Red Sea and Moses leads then and then what do they do? They sing and rejoice and they dance. So, what is music that connects with the human soul?

Andrew Marcus:
That’s a great question, man. I don’t even know if I have an answer for that. I feel like music is like you said, you know, not just our culture, but it’s the language that everyone speaks. It’s a language that everyone connects to. You hear a song and it’s like it reminds you of your high school days. Music is very, very, very powerful. Why that is? I mean, I don’t know. That’s a great question. But I know that God uses it. God uses it in amazing ways. A lot of people, you know, they might not remember a sermon as much as they’re singing a song throughout the week. So, for me, if we’re singing songs that are not theologically accurate or whatever that could be very dangerous. I always think, man, we need to be very careful.

Ryan McCurdy:
As a pastor how does that process look like? You know, choosing worship music and choosing songs that are going to be theologically wholesome and rich. Is there a lot of songs that you find these days that you’re putting to the side to the “do not use” folder?

Andrew Marcus:
Unfortunately, yes. I’m not like a crazy stickler though. I know there’s that huge debate of like ‘Reckless Love,’ and like, “Oh, how can we sing it? God’s love’s not reckless.” I mean, sometimes people get like a little bit crazy. I don’t think people are in the congregation saying, “Wow, we’re singing about God’s horrible love.” I don’t think anyone is understanding it that way.
But I have two filters when I’m picking songs and the same filters when I’m writing songs. The first filter is the Bible. Is this theological? Is this something I can find in scripture? And then the second filter is my church family. And so when it comes to writing songs, go to the Bible. Is this accurate? And I think of my people. Can I teach my people this? Is this a song that they can understand who God is and what he’s done for each one of the people in this room? And the same thing from choosing songs too. You take it through that filter. Is this theologically correct? This sentence is a little bit weird. Is this going to cause confusion ’cause they’re trying to be extremely poetic or whatever and it just doesn’t make sense? Who are we talking about? And there’s some songs I’m like, “I don’t even know what you’re talking about.
Even though they’re trendy and everyone’s doing them, I would be okay with putting them onto the side and you know, risking the thought of confusing people.

Ryan McCurdy:
Who would be some of the people that you would say are kind of your inspirations when it comes to worship? And worship predominately in music. Like, where does a lot of your inspiration come from?

Andrew Marcus:
I mean, I look up to people. There’s a lot of worship leaders who have taught me so much. So, I mean, the Bible, our church family, and just other leaders who have gone before me. I’m just trying to get mentored and trained and equipped to keep doing what I’m doing. And I always tell our team, make sure that we’re always being mentored and make sure we’re always mentoring someone. So, for me, I’m ahead of someone, but I’m also behind.

Ryan McCurdy:
So, we need people that are in front of us and behind us. So, what’s that like for you?

Andrew Marcus:
Yeah. For me, honestly, like I think the church of North America… so, I’ve been writing a book.

Ryan McCurdy:
Ooh.

Andrew Marcus:
And I haven’t been telling a lot of people about this.

Ryan McCurdy:
What’s this book called?

Andrew Marcus:
I think it’s gonna be called Worshype and it’s the idea that we are just worshiping worship and the experience and the lights and the smoke and we’re trying to have perfection. Everything has to be seamless and perfect and the subtitle will be: They’re Coming to Church Hungry and Leaving Starving. Because if we put on a show and everything has to be seamless and perfect, people are generally coming because they want to encounter God and they’re hungry. And then they leave and they missed it. And we missed offering it. So, in the book, one of the chapters is called Mentor and Be Mentored and for me, it looks like I love putting people in positions at our church and giving them like authority in ministry and leadership. Even though they’re grade nine, grade ten, they might lead worship and it might be, you know, not the best weekend that we’ve ever experienced. It might not be seamless or whatever, but that doesn’t matter to me. We’re trying to create a culture where we just want to train and equip and help people.

Ryan McCurdy:
Especially as a pastor. Like, the passage in Ephesians, what are you meant to do is train and equip the saints for the work of the ministry. It’s not that we’re supposed to do it all ourselves and I think right now I would ask the question, what does the church, especially in the realm of worship, how has the church been impacted? How has the church waivered from the truth? And I think of the North American culture that we find ourselves swimming in and we are the Hollywood generation and the church as at times gone to this part that you’re saying where it’s like worsh hype, like worship hype. It’s all about the show.

Andrew Marcus:
That’s dangerous, man. It’s so dangerous and so scary, and honestly, like really, really gross.

Ryan McCurdy:
I read a book called “The Way of the Dragon or the Way of the Lamb” and it talks about power in the church and it talks about, you know, they interview guys like Eugene Peterson, A woman named Marva Dawn, Chuck Swindoll, Jean Vanier. Like, these legends of the modern day faith who have just, they have done it well. And all of them unanimously say it’s so often in church culture we choose the way of the dragon. We choose the way of building our own empire and our own influence, our own kind of kingdom when Jesus actually the Son of God chose to behave like a lamb. So, I’m curious, do you see people who are taking the way of the lamb? I’m curious.

Andrew Marcus:
Of course, I have and they’re some of my biggest inspirations. Now, the interesting thing is not all of them are like, they have the lights and the platform and the influence. Some of them are just small churches. It’s the ones that no one’s really gonna hear about. And they’re doing amazing things for the Gospel. There are people who do have a major platform who are very humble and who are training and equipping. Paul Baloche is someone who I’ve had the privilege to write with. He’s a songwriter, worship leader. He’s written many songs that we sing in church. And he loves the mentoring. Loves training. Loves writing with younger people and spending time with younger people and encouraging the next generation. Like, very, very inspiring.
Like, Lord, I pray I could be like that and I don’t have to wait until I’m older. I could just start now. Like, let’s just start training the grade nines and the grade eights and the grade tens. Like, giving then opportunity. I mean, there’s many people that I’ve looked up to. Tim Hughes is another example of an amazing writer, amazing pastor, and worship leader. Their ministries are like, they’re just doing amazing things for the Kingdom, ’cause their hearts are focused on what’s important. I did an interview with Tim Hughes for a show that I have called Sharing the Road. We were just talking about how the church of North America is just… as we continue to seek perfection and seamless transitions and everything we’re getting farther and farther away.
And he just said, you know what? For him, when he was 18 years old or 16 years old, him and Martin Smith from Delirious and Matt Redman, they were all together in the same youth group and Mike Pilavachi was like, “Hey, I want you guys to lead worship,” he said. We led worship and guitars were out of tune, voices were horrible, and it was just a disaster, but if we were seeking perfection like we are in today’s culture, there is no room for the next Tim Hughes. There’s no room for the next Matt Redman. If everything has to be absolutely perfect and churches are hiring professionals to do the work or the ministry, there’s going to be no next generation of Matt Redmans and Tim Hugheses and Martin Smiths.

Ryan McCurdy:
It sounds like it’s a competition of values, right? Like Kingdom values versus individual values, right? It might be easy for you to say or it might be alluring for you to say, “Oh, I’m the Worship Pastor of this church. I want worship to look perfect so it’ll reflect well on my leadership and decisions and my ability to make things look perfect.” That’s the Andrew Marcus Kingdom value, whereas the Jesus Christ Kingdom value is, “Hey, we want to build the church” and obviously Jesus is going to be the one that builds His church. It’s in the Word. He will build the church and so what things do we do that lets us be part of it, right? Like, what kind of planting or what kind of watering? What kind of feed? Ultimately God makes it grow, but how are we pouring into the next generation and elevating and giving other people opportunity rather than elevating ourselves?
The passage that comes to mind is when Jesus says, “You want to exalt yourself, but the one who humbles himself, they will truly be exalted.”

Andrew Marcus:
I just feel like sometimes people will get flack for you know, I’d rather have a C- service and have a young, young person trying to learn a position. Craig Groeschel said this amazingly like if you give people tasks you create followers. If you give people authority, you create leaders. So, it’s like giving people authority in ministry, even if they’re young, old, whatever it is if you’re just giving tasks, “Hey do this. Do this. Do that.” Just followers that are following you around just doing whatever you want, but I really believe, man, I want to give authority. Give opportunity for people to just dive in. And it might not look like a smooth, smooth, awesome transition, perfection, whatever, but I feel like that’s church.

Ryan McCurdy:
Why do you think people crave that smooth transition? Like, at least the perception of modern day church culture like the worship experience? Oftentimes it’s not even called a service anymore. It’s a worship experience. Like, why are we so desperate for that? Why is there such a you know, you said people are coming hungry, they leave starving. Like, why are we so hungry for an experience?

Andrew Marcus:
Well, I think the people who are coming, I mean not everybody, but the people who are like, you know, non-believers walking to church for the first time, they’re coming ’cause they genuinely need help. They could be doing a million other things on a Sunday morning, but they’re coming because they’re desperate and they’re interested, and they’re curious. So, I feel like a lot of people think, “Okay. We need to put on a show for them and make it presentable and make it comparable to what they’d see at a concert.” Like, we want them to be really impressed. The reality is with the church budgets, no matter what we do, we will never impress. Like, we can’t. We can’t compete with people who have millions of dollars in the bank for concerts. So, the reality is, that’s not even what they want. They’re coming because they actually have a hole that’s missing. Something’s missing. They’re broken. And only Jesus can fix that.
So, I think the pressure on churches, oh, it needs to have a full band. It needs to look like this. It needs to sound like this. It needs to feel like this. It’s all, like, I could have one person on a bass guitar and a grand piano and if they’re hungry for God, and they lead, God can do an amazing thing in that service. It doesn’t have to look and sound and feel a certain way.
Now, I’m not trying to say like our services are horrible. We want to be our best. We want to be excellent, ’cause God deserves the best.

Ryan McCurdy:
Right and that’s the tension.

Andrew Marcus:
Yes. And that’s the problem. We want to be excellent and then we get so caught up in the perfectionism of it we forget to think of the perfect One. We’re just thinking of perfection. God’s been teaching me a lot, a lot to be honest. Like, churches before the one I’m at now, it’s like no music stands. It has to look like this. It has to sound like that. Then I was in a church years ago where I turned my back to the congregation just for a moment to tell the drummer the next song, and then Monday morning comes and I go to the office and I get like yelled at for like 20 minutes about how you never turn your back to the congregation and never have your eyes closed so that you can see what’s happening in the room and all these “rules” that I put on myself. This is what I think it’s supposed to be.
And so, I came to CA Church, Coquitlam Alliance, and kind of started to implement some of these rules that I thought were, you know, they’re important. And I’m realizing more and more these days, bro, that like none of these rules are like… you look at Marty Sampson, an old worship leader from Hillsong. His eyes are closed literally the whole time, but when he leads worship, presence to God is massive. Kim Walker, her back is to the congregation about 98% of the time as she walks around. Leads worship. Presence of God is massive. Brian Johnson – Bethel worship. He’s staring at the music stand literally the whole time. Never looks up once. It’s like he does not know a single note. I’m not bashing him. I’m just saying when he leads worship, the presence of God is massive.
So, it’s like we thought it’s supposed to look a certain way but all that matters is if you come with a heart after God and you want to see his people encounter Him. It doesn’t matter what it looks like. Your eyes could be closed. You could be walking around the stage. You could be staring at your music stand. Like, I’m learning this almost for the first time, that it’s not what it looks like. It’s the heart.

Ryan McCurdy:
I think even as you said that, that idea that it has to look a certain way and we get very legalistic at times when in the reality of things, like going back to David, is that David was a man after God’s heart and even when he was anointed by Samuel, Samuel said this. When he looks through all his brothers and his brothers are strong and big, it says this in verse 6 of 1 Samuel 16: “When they came, he looked on Eliab and thought surely the Lord’s anointed is before him.” Big, strong, got all the right things. He’s doing it right. “But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not look upon him on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the Lord sees not as man sees. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.””
And I think that piece has to be critical for worship leaders and I think as you lead worship, not you specifically, as people engage in worship, it’s not a matter of “am I doing all the right things.” It’s a matter of the heart. The Lord is looking at the heart and not just like, our emotions, but like the totality of who we are. So, I think this is a huge conversation of asking who are we trying to please in worship.
In our worship services in our young adult’s group at my church, one of our core values is audience of One. Our ultimate aim is to bring honour and glory to God. So, He is our audience member. So, when we do a service, when we serve in the community, when we hang out with friends, when we do that, He is our audience member and it’s like He’s the only one we’re trying to please. And I think we are probably in a culture perspective of, “You know, what? Let’s please people.”

Andrew Marcus:
Yeah. We have an audience of 1300 or whatever it is.

Ryan McCurdy:
Totally. And that is probably why some of the times, you know, you can have all… this is what’s so fascinating. You can have all the right things and it still feels like there’s something missing.

Andrew Marcus:
Yeah, so I was just going to tell you that actually. I’ve been to like a worship… say you go to a worship concert or you go somewhere and it looks a certain way. Lights, haze, whatever, blah, blah, blah, and you’re just like, “I feel funny. Something just feels off.” And then you can go to another place. It looks identical. Lights, smoke, haze, whatever. It was a Hillsong concert, and it’s just like, instantly, you’re just like blown away by the presence of God and you’re worshiping. I remember having lunch with some of those guys like Joel Houston and something of these guys from Hillsong. Someone asked them in this little lunch Q&A thing, “Hey, what do you respond when people say, the haze and the lights and everything’s like really distracting. Like, how do you respond to people?” And he said, “You know what? Honestly, our lighting guy and our guys who are doing production are passionately worshiping Jesus. Passionately in the gifts that God’s given them.” I’m like, “You know what? Yes. I feel like I can tell even though it looks identical to something else, I can tell the room is just different.”

Ryan McCurdy:
Here’s my last question for you Andrew. What would you say to somebody may be listening right now or somebody who is in a local church context and they would say that the style of worship doesn’t fit their need or it’s not what they like. And so, they’re struggling with that because when they go to worship they’re having a hard time feeling it. Or maybe they’re a worship leader in a church and other people in their congregation are saying, “It’s not the right worship. Could you do this song? Not this song.” What would you say to someone that came to you and said, “You know? I’m just not really feeling it at my church with worship. What do you think I should do?

Andrew Marcus:
That’s a good question. I get that question from people. That’s actually one of the chapters I’ve been writing about and it’s called The VIP Pass. This is the reality. Certain people have a VIP pass to my soul. Certain people can bring correction to me. If I have someone I don’t know. They don’t know me. They come to me and say, “Worship was horrible” or “you did that song in a really bad way” or “why didn’t you do this? Why didn’t you do that?” I’m like, well, do you have a VIP pass to my soul? Are you like someone that knows me really well, knows my heart?

Ryan McCurdy:
That you trust.

Andrew Marcus:
Yeah. So, if my Senior Pastor or anyone on my lead team said that, I would be like, “Okay. I’m listening. How can I get better.” So, it’s so important that we give certain people VIP passes, but the problem is everyone has musical opinions and musical preferences and musical styles. You’re gonna hear complaints literally all the time. Being a worship pastor is like a lose, lose situation. You’re getting like attacked by someone about something that they didn’t like. So, it’s just like, this is the reality as far as it’s an audience of one. And if your leaders are saying, “Hey, we see what you’re doing and we love the direction you’re going”, and you have your leadership, your family, your elders, your staff, your lead pastors saying, “Yes.” Then you just… those are the people who have the VIP pass.
If someone storms up and they don’t know you. They don’t know your heart… I had a service once where like I shared this really intense spiritual attack Michelle and I had the night before church and it lasted all morning. We were screaming Jesus at the top of our lungs. We were freaking out. We read scripture for four hours all morning. Like, it was a very demonic, crazy, dark experience at our house. And I came up and I didn’t plan to share it with our church family, but at the 9:30 church service… it happened like four hours before, I just said, “Hey, I just want to encourage us. The battle we face is not against flesh and blood. There’s this stuff that’s going on.” We were singing ‘Came to My Rescue.’ I called. You answered. You came to my rescue. I just said, “You know what? This is the reality. This happened to us literally four hours ago. We called. We were screaming for Jesus and He answered. He came to our rescue.”
So, I shared this story, and as we started singing the song… this has never happened to me before, I literally was scream-crying. Like, I started sobbing uncontrollably and I literally fell on my face. And I couldn’t even sing and the whole congregation just kept singing for me, and they led me in worship. I just kept saying, “Andrew, come on. Pull yourself together. Pull yourself. Like, stop being so weak. Stop.” It was like the most authentic moment I’ve ever had on the platform. I looked up at the congregation and there was people on their knees all across the room. God used that moment in such a beautiful way. But I go to Nemo three or four days later “Oh, I feel like it’s so performance driven and you’re just trying to put on entertainment.” And blah, blah, blah. And I’m like, “Are you kidding me?” I honestly have never been that authentic in my life and I’m getting people saying, “Wow. You’re just all about entertainment.” Does that person who emailed me have a VIP pass to my soul? No.
So, I’ll tell a person who’s a worship leader if you’re getting critiques and you’re getting feedback that’s always negative or whatever, are those people VIP? Do they even have tickets? Are they ticket holders or are they just random people that you don’t even know? Find the people who are VIP who have VIP passes to your soul and allow them to speak into your life. And for a congregation member, if the music’s not your style and you can’t engage with God, I’m thankful that engaging with God has nothing to do with the music. You know, just like seek Him. Pray for your teams. Pray for your church and just seek Him with all you got, because then you’re getting into the consumer approach again, where you’re coming and you need something to feel good. When it’s like, well, nothing that’s happening on the platform is supposed to make you feel good. It’s really about where you’re at and how you’re connected to God not what the worship leader can do for you. If that makes sense?

Ryan McCurdy:
It makes sense. Yeah, that’s great. Well, Andrew, it’s been so good to be with you today. It’s always a joy when we get to chat and talk through ministry and life. And it’s clearly obvious that God is working in you and working through you. So, thanks for being with us today and sharing a little bit about your story and things that we can connect with you on.

Andrew Marcus:
Thanks so much for having me, bro.

Ryan McCurdy:
Thank you so much for joining us on this episode of indoubt with Andrew Marcus. You can find Andrew Marcus on social media or you can go onto his website andrewmarcusmusic.com and you can connect with him there. If indoubt has encouraged you and you are passionate to help others grow in the truth, we want to welcome you to partner with us as we continue to provide resources, we depend on the generosity and partnership of people just like you to help community the good news of Jesus to the world that needs him. Download our app and follow us for updates on social media. We would love to hear from you. Email us at info@indoubt.ca. Stay connected with us for next week’s episode as we talk with Imran Daniel and jump into the first episode of our new monthly series on World Religions and Spirituality. Thanks so much for listening this week and I hope that you join us next week.

Kourtney Cromwell:
Thanks so much for listening. If you want to hear more, subscribe on iTunes and Spotify or visit us online at indoubt.ca or indoubt.com. We’re also on social media, so make sure to follow us on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter.