Ep. 165: Exploring the World – Sikhism

Kourtney Cromwell:
Welcome to the indoubt Podcast, where we explore the challenging topics that young adults often face. Each week we talk with guests who help answer questions of faith, life, and culture, connecting them to our daily experiences and God’s word. For more info on indoubt, visit indoubt.ca, or indoubt.com.

Ryan McCurdy:
Hey everyone, so good to be with you. My name is Ryan, and I’m really excited about this episode ahead as we have Pastor Imran Daniel with us. Imran is the Pastor of Multicultural Engagement at Northview Community Church, and I invited him to help me open the discussion and the new series on world religions and spirituality. Each month we’ll feature a different guest talking about a different world religion, or a different type of spirituality. Today we’re talking about Sikhism, breaking down exactly what the religion is all about and how Christians can love and respond to Sikhism and their values and beliefs in a Christ-centred way. Imran has a great story of how he got to where he is now, and he was able to speak into the gap of Sikhism and Christianity. We talk about how we have an opportunity to not just tell others about the Jesus that we know and love, but an opportunity to display our relationship with Christ in everything that we do. So thanks for joining us today, and I hope you enjoy this episode.

Ryan McCurdy:
With me today, we have Imran Daniel. Imran is the Pastor of Multicultural Engagement at Northview Community Church, which is in Abbotsford, British Columbia. Now Imran?

Imran Daniel:
Ryan?

Ryan McCurdy:
You’re not born and raised in Abbotsford. So tell us a little bit about your life, your story. How’d you come to faith? How did you get to the place where now you’re a pastor at Northview in Abbotsford? Tell us about it.

Imran Daniel:
That’s a great question. So yes, I was born and raised in Pakistan. I was raised in a Christian home. My parents are Christians, and I would see them every morning get up and do their quiet time regularly, and it was just great seeing that model that my sisters and I, we ended up following that model too. Even though we understood very little when we read the Bible because you’re in like grade six, seven, eight, nine, whatever. So you just do, because this is something what we do as a family. So anyway, grew up in a Christian family and I basically went to school first in Seattle, because I was given a scholarship called Fulbright scholarship, which is basically a free education. It was great, I’m thankful for that. From there on, as I was finishing my program, a friend of mine told me like, hey, in 2010, they have Olympics in Canada and you speak a few languages, you just finished the course in the hotel hospitality management, so you should be able to get a job there.
So I was like, okay, that sounds like a pretty good deal. I applied, ended up coming out this way and from there on basically, I moved to Canada in 2008 and then worked in the hotel industry for about three years. But funny thing, because my parents always wanted me to be a pastor, this was back in grade nine, started in grade nine, and I was like, no, maybe not. Maybe later, we’ll just see how things go. And then when I moved out this way, that’s exactly what I wanted to do, because like every night I would go to bed, I’ll just have the desire and the passion like this is something I should be doing. And even like working in the hotels, the restaurant industry, I’ll talk to my coworkers about my faith and stuff and often they’d be receptive to that, and other times they’d be like, all right, they just walk away and won’t say a thing, which is fine. So anyway, basically that’s how I ended up doing ministry.

Ryan McCurdy:
Yeah, that’s incredible. That’s a cool story. And one of the things that I’m looking forward to, I was talking about today, is Sikhism. And first I want to say, did I say it right?

Imran Daniel:
Can you say it again, please?

Ryan McCurdy:
Sikhism.

Imran Daniel:
Sikhism. That’s right.

Ryan McCurdy:
So it’s not Sikhism?

Imran Daniel:
No.

Ryan McCurdy:
Like all growing up I thought it was Sikhism.

Imran Daniel:
No. Well, that’s just because people just have a hard time how to pronounce it, or even like certain other words in different other languages. It’s just because you’re, one example I can give you, like for example, often people, my name is Imran, it spells I-M-R-A-N, so they will often say Imoran, and I’m like no, you don’t say that it’s Imran.

Ryan McCurdy:
Imran, okay.

Imran Daniel:
Yeah, it just spells it that way.

Ryan McCurdy:
If I ever say it wrong, just let me know.

Imran Daniel:
Absolutely.

Ryan McCurdy:
Just call me out.

Imran Daniel:
So anyway, so it’s not Sikhism. It is Sikhism. Yeah. Even though you spell it, and it may sound like it’s C-S-I, Cikhism, but it’s Sikhism. Yeah.

Ryan McCurdy:
So with that though, how did you get into like a knowledge of Sikhism, and you have experience with people, would you say people who are Sikh? Like Sikh people? Yeah.

Imran Daniel:
Yes, very much so. Like back in Pakistan, even to like rehab, very few Sikh people, and in fact, the founder of Sikhism is Guru Nanak, whose temple is still in Pakistan and people still go and pay their pilgrimages to him in Pakistan. So we still have a few, and then of course through Bollywood movies like the faith is basically shared, just to see what they believe and what sort of practices they have. And then, of course, coming out to Abbotsford was a great help, just was able to connect with all my Punjabi friends and able to ask them, “Hey, what do you believe? Why do you believe what you believe in? How do you do all these certain things or practices that you have even at the temple or at home?” And then reading on Sikhism and watching a few documentaries as well. So anyway, but then basically now it’s more like my daily encounter with people about their faith and just kind of engaging back and forth, like what they do when they go to the Sikh temple for example.

Ryan McCurdy:
Right. So what would be, for somebody who’s never met somebody who’s Sikh, what are some of the, like core notes or the core principles of Sikhism?

Imran Daniel:
Foundational is that they are very monotheistic, meaning believe in one God. And it’s funny because the founder, Guru Nanak, who was born in 1469, man, he’s from a Hindu family and then he saw that meant my group of people, Hindu, referring to the Hindu people, like they have millions of gods and I have no idea which one to worship or which one to follow now, because if I follow one, will the other one be offended. Right? You have the fear then. So his whole desire was like, I want to know this, if there is the one true God, I want to know him, I want to try to find him. So he would often leave his family and just go into the fields and just try to meditate and just try to find God in his ways. And also, and then later on when he realized like there’s actually one true God, there are no multiple gods like in Hinduism they have, he realized that we need to do something because often people are confused and they have no idea.

Imran Daniel:
And it also was that he himself, like his personal desire, in fact, in one of his prayers he ask, this is what his prayer is, he’s like, have mercy on me, oh God, if I have thee, I have everything. Right. So it’s like very earnest, honest prayer that he’s asking. Like, I have thee, I have everything, have mercy on me. I am not a god, although some Sikh people would now think he was God, but he himself said no, he’s not God. So anyway, so some of the core principles, like I said, they believe in one God, they encourage to remember God, earn honestly and share with others. These are the main principles. And along with that, they encourage to avoid five vices or five enemies, they were calling, which is lust, greed, attachment to the things of this world, and ego and so on. So like if you do all these things and on top of that meditate on the name of God and chant his name, you are a good Sikh person.

Ryan McCurdy:
There’s pieces to Sikhism, the monotheistic religion, that as Christians we share that view of God, and I find it quite interesting that it’s a response from Hinduism. There’s a response of like, “Hey, this isn’t working. Let me try and understand God in another light or in another way.” And so I’m curious, what are some of the natural ebbs and flows of somebody who is a Sikh person in their religion? Like what is their daily routine?

Imran Daniel:
The number one thing that they would, I’m talking first of all of the first generation people, they would go to the temple and do their prayer, and they will go in the temple and bow before the book, which is called the Guru Garan Sahib, that’s their holy book. So they will bow before the book, and then they will sit there and hear what’s being sung or being read, and they will just meditate quietly, could be five minutes, 10 minutes, and after they go. Or if they cannot go to the temple, they would do it at home, because they have a smaller version of the holy book, which is called Gutka, which we’ll not even get into that. It’s let’s just say a smaller version of that, kind of like instead of having a whole Bible, you just have like the Gospel of John for example or New Testament at home.
That’s the equivalent here. So they will try to read that at home and just do their prayers, and just try to understand. As far as the second generation, most of the people, because they were born and raised here, they’re very Western, and they don’t go to the temple. They don’t even read or do their prayers. They just do it because, or they go to the temple time to time, just because their parents make them do it, or they do it just to make parents happy. So just same thing like in Christian, like a church too, like, “Hey, it’s Christmas time. All right. I really don’t want to go to church, but sure I’ll do it, because you like it, right?” So that’s the routine basically.

Ryan McCurdy:
So would a devout follower of Sikhism go every week?

Imran Daniel:
Yeah, they will try to go every day. But it depends on the person. Like if it’s an older person, has more time, he or she would go regularly, every day, and maybe be there like a few times. Because remember, the core values are like remembering God, serving and sharing, earning honestly, all these and then they will go into the temple and serve too, and then also just “be,” for example, be in the presence of God, and just be there and just meditate and reflect and all sort of stuff. So they do that.

Ryan McCurdy:
That’s really interesting. I’m curious, I have a question that I’m curious to hear the response or what your views are, but they could be asked both ways. How do most people in the Sikh religion view Christians? And in which way do you think most Christians, generally, most Christians view Sikhism?

Imran Daniel:
Yeah, so let’s do the other one first. The first part, how do the Sikh people view Christians or the Christian faith. Most of them respect just because the history of Christian faith, because it’s one of the oldest faith or belief or religion in the world, and they respect. They respect Jesus as we do, but they disagree, politely, as they say, we politely disagree, or that Jesus is not the Son of God. Right. So that they will disagree with that. Otherwise, they like people because they think that you guys are good people. You desire to know God. You try to follow his ways.

Ryan McCurdy:
When you say that, as you say that, I’m reminded of the passage where Jesus says, people will know that you’re my followers based on how you love one another.

Imran Daniel:
Exactly.

Ryan McCurdy:
And it’s the same thing, that is the example. So how do most Christians then, in reciprocal, how do most Christians view Sikhism?

Imran Daniel:
Well, most Christians are, they view them… So here’s a couple of things though. Number one is that they may not know that they believe in one God because they think like they have multiple gods, right? Because often, the Sikh people even, they would go to the Hindu temple and the Sikh temple, because like cover your bases basically. Right? And that the Christians are confused. They’re like, “Hey, I understand that it’s said in your book that you believe in one God, but at the same time I see you doing everything else and following other gods as well.” So they’d be confused, or they would have the desire to connect and follow, or just engage with them. But that they are afraid that they may offend them in one way or the other, because either there’s a language barrier or they don’t know much about the faith.
So there’s that. But there’s some people who are really outgoing people and they’re like, “Hey, I don’t know the language, I don’t know the faith, but I’m just going to go hang out with you, engage with you, and ask you questions about who you are and what you believe.” And I think that’s probably one of the best ways to go about, though. I could give you other examples. There’s one of our neighbours, they’re a Sikh family, husband and wife were walking to Mill Lake Park in Abbotsford, and the husband had his ankle problem, he was limping. And this woman, a Christian woman, who was walking and saw this guy in pain, he really wanted to go for a walk with his wife, but just in pain. And she stopped and offered to pray in the name of Jesus. And she’s like, “Hey, can I pray for you?”
He was like, “Ah, no.” But his wife was like, “Yes, please, please do that.” Anyway, they stood there and started praying, and this Christian woman took off one way, and this couple just going the opposite direction, right? And like within a minute as he started walking, he’s not limping anymore. It was instant, immediate healing right there. And she told her husband, we need to find this woman, who she is, right. Like what’s going on here? Right. Because you were in pain and now you’re not and you’re walking fine. And the husband’s attitude was like, “Ah, no, it’s okay. Whatever. It’s just probably, it’s normal. Just not hurting as bad as before.” She’s like, “No, there’s something more to that.” Anyway, she insisted, they ended up basically going around, ended up meeting halfway through, and then she tells me that I met this woman at Mill Lake, and asked like, “Hey, so like, who did you pray to?” And she’s like, “I pray to Jesus.” “Can you tell me more about it?” So, therefore, a Christian showing care and representing Christ was huge for this woman and for others too.

Ryan McCurdy:
Yeah. One of the things that strikes me, even in the conversation that we’ve had, is the language that you’ve used regarding like representing Christ. As a follower of Jesus, you want to make an impact in the world, you want to love people, you want to make a difference, represent Jesus well.

Imran Daniel:
Totally. In fact, one of the complaints from one of the Sikh leaders was that the Christians try to force their faith on us. They evangelize. We don’t, but they force their way into our lives. Right after that, he shares a story of his sister-in-law, who is in the East, and he’s like, she and her family are Christian now just because they were shown love and care by the Christian people. They did not basically force their faith, Christian faith, on my sister-in-law. And I often find that fascinating because it was their genuine love and care that basically drew them to Jesus. But I find it annoying that the people just tried to kind of force us into that. No, you have to believe or you’re going to hell. Right? So then they have questions and stuff about that too.

Ryan McCurdy:
So how would you encourage someone, I’d be curious, like how would you encourage someone who where when we read in scripture we see Jesus instructing people like, go and-

Imran Daniel:
Make disciples, yeah.

Ryan McCurdy:
Make disciples, and even Paul would say like, hey, be ready to give an answer in and out of season for your faith. So it’s important to share the good news of the Gospel and to be able to do that, and then also holding the intention that, well, I also need to balance how I live. And because in scripture we see, both those actually, encouragements. And I would even probably say more than an encouragement, kind of the command, the direction of, hey, go and do likewise, go and do these things. And so how could a follower of Christ do this tactfully, do this well with people who are following Sikhism?

Imran Daniel:
Well, I think personally that yes, there are times when you are given the opportunity by the Holy Spirit to speak in someone’s life directly and just preach it, the command that you’re given. Like, hey, I need to do it because I know you can hear. But if I meet you for the first time in this 21st century world, “Hey Ryan, you are a Christian. I think you are wrong in what you believe. Let me tell you what I believe and I think that’s what you should.” What would be your response to that?

Ryan McCurdy:
Oh yeah, I’d get defensive. I’d be like, “Excuse me?”

Imran Daniel:
Right, exactly. So I think in the same way for people of other faith, that they will react that way too. Now if I use an approach like I get to know you, “Hey, Ryan, I heard that you play soccer, tell me more about that. Like do you play regularly?” Like also just trying to get to know you first, and you’d be like, man, this guy’s showing care or interest in my life, and then I earn your trust slowly, then you will give me your ears to hear basically. Because then I could speak into your life and you’re like, okay, yeah.
Even though I disagree, but I can still hear you. Right. Did you see the differences here in both approaches here too? However, when you, I guess, do mission trips and stuff like that, like, okay, basically you go and boom, you just preach the Gospel and you try your best and leave the rest to God. Right? So it’s one of those complicated things, like even like so the one example, John 4, for example, the Samaritan woman, Jesus meeting her at the well, and called her, hey, give me some drink, give me water. And she’s like, why, you don’t have anything to draw water? And then, of course, the conversation goes on and on. And basically, Jesus was very direct with her in that situation.
Now you use that passage, and now you compare that to another passage, Acts 17, for example, when Paul is waiting for his friends in Athens in Acts 17. He basically, he’s like, I’m waiting here. I got time now, I see the people are religious in every ways, I’ve got to find some sort of common connections, right? So he basically sees the sign of unknown God, and then he’s like, well, I could go and tell them all about that, also what I believe. But then, hey, let me tell you basically about the son of God, but then also quoting their philosophers and all their poets and everyone. So engaging with them from their level, versus let me tell you basically my theology and what I believe and I think I am right. Right? Have to kind of find the balance here. I’m not sure if I’ve given you much of a direct answer here. You just have to be-

Ryan McCurdy:
You have to know who you’re talking to.

Imran Daniel:
Exactly.

Ryan McCurdy:
Right, and I think that’s one of the reasons why this conversation is so important. Understanding different world religions, understanding where different people are coming from. Because you walk into an environment that you’re unfamiliar with, maybe their story, their values, what they believe and why they believe it, and you come in and you tell them, “Hey, by the way, that’s all wrong.” That might be true that it’s all wrong-

Imran Daniel:
[Affirmation].

Ryan McCurdy:
And if we were in the Christian faith, it is true that all these other religions are an attempt at, yeah, trying to find God. And we read in John that Jesus says I am the way, the truth and the life. There is an exclusivity to the Gospel, but that doesn’t mean that you need to be a jerk about it.

Imran Daniel:
I mean like you quoted earlier, that they will know, this is how they will know that you’re my true disciples if you love one another. Like wow, well we can do that. Because if someone’s like, hey, please don’t tell me what you believe and that I am wrong and you’re right. I don’t want to hear about this. I’d love to be friends with you, right, if that’s the case. I’m like, okay, let’s use that as an opportunity to engage with someone. Because I think I said in the past a few other settings as well that we try to treat people as a project rather than friends, right? Because if you’re trying to treat them as a project, hey I’ve got to do my thing, I’ve got to get them to my church, I’ve got to convert them or whatever the case is, and I’ve got to move on. But if you become a friend, it goes very long and far, far away, right, then there’s a continued discipleship happening there.

Ryan McCurdy:
Imran, when you say, that makes me happy. Many of the listeners would know that I’m a young adult’s pastor, and one of our values as a young adult ministry is people don’t equal projects, and it’s the equal sign with a little line through it. And it’s this value of people are not projects, they’re people. And all throughout the gospels, we see Jesus having a conversation with people, loving them for who they are, where they’re at, and inviting them to follow him. And I think in all of this, what I’m hearing is this invitation to say kind of like, “Hey, come follow me as I follow Christ.”
No one’s going to follow you if they don’t know you if they don’t trust you, and trust is built in that place of caring for others, listening to them, hearing them out. And so I think this conversation is an important one, and one of the, maybe as we look to wrapping things up here, for those who are in the faith and for those who are wanting to care for and engage with people of different worldviews and backgrounds, and want to encourage them to meet Jesus, how would you best encourage them to maintain the strength in their faith?

Imran Daniel:
I think number one basically is like you have to be rooted in the Word, regardless, whatever you’re doing, especially, and then praying and trusting in the Holy Spirit. One of the lines I often use, and I’ve been challenged to use or like this is not my thing, my work, God accomplish your purpose through our time together. It’s not what I’m hoping to achieve. Accomplish your purpose in my time together with so and so, or what am I going to do, even better. I’m in the university or other places too. By doing that, you are relying on God. “God, it’s not me, it’s you who’s doing this, and it’s your work. So I’m just here basically because you put me here, so use me in whatever way you want me to be used, but at the same time accomplish your purpose.”
So I think when I do that, then I’m like, okay, relying on God, hey, I have no idea how to answer someone’s question if someone asks me a question because I may not know the answer. And that’s often the case for me too. I get to ask like some of the questions that I don’t even think about that, and that’s when like I’ve got to run to God. God, I don’t know. Help me out. So the practical, just leaning on God and trusting him, and that he by his Holy Spirit will guide and direct us and give us the words to say, and he’s promised that. That’s probably one of the number one, there’s no magic formula here that hey, you should do this and you will be a successful evangelist or whatever. Right? Or young adult’s pastor, but no. It’s this like a daily thing.

Ryan McCurdy:
This has been great. Is there anything, Imran, that we haven’t touched on that you’re like, oh, I really wanted to get to this a little?

Imran Daniel:
No, I would basically simply encourage and say this, that like try to find some of the common connections in the Sikh faith, what they believe and how they go about their belief. Like what are some of the commonalities or similarities that they have with Christian faith, and try to use them as a bridge to bring them into the Bible, if that makes sense though, right? Because in the end, that’s the whole goal here that you want them to know Jesus and follow him. So do that, try to find the common connection, try to know more about that. But then just don’t have a head knowledge, you know what I mean? Just try like, okay, you may learn things from them, be open. My other thing is just like, people are very hospitable in Indian culture. So if you get to know someone, you establish their friendship or relationship, you end up becoming a part of their family, right?
So this is how it goes. So why not take advantage of that like, hey, I really… and if you’re really intrigued by the culture, like, “Hey, I would love to learn about that. Can we hang out?” Right. It’s just a simple question. Like, I’m not going to force anything on you. I just simply want to get to know you and just how you guys go about your culture and how you do things in your family and things like that. Just the practical stuff, right? And then leave the rest on God. Like God, I’m not here to convert this person because that’s your goal. I’m just simply here to hang out. So accomplish your purpose again. Right?

Ryan McCurdy:
This is amazing. Imran, this has been fantastic. Thanks so much for all the insight that you have. And you know, I think of the work that you’re doing at Northview and I’m so grateful that we have people like you in our family of faith who can help us, help me, the rest of us understand different layers to other people’s perspectives. And so thank you so much for helping us today.

Imran Daniel:
Thanks for having me.

Ryan McCurdy:
And yeah, it’s been great.

Imran Daniel:
Yeah, thanks, Ryan.

Ryan McCurdy:
Thanks so much for joining us on this episode with Imran Daniel. You know, even as we’ve looked into having this conversation, it’s so important for us as followers of Jesus to understand when we rub shoulders with people in our classes or at work who have different values and different beliefs that they uphold, how do we communicate the Gospel of who Jesus is to them? And oftentimes, we need people like Imran who have had experience and have lived with people who have different values than we do as followers of Jesus, and learn from him. And so I hope that today you were able to learn and hear from Imran, and gather some information of how you can love and support people who are in your life that are following the Sikh religion, and then also to be able to speak the truth of the Gospel to them and invite them into a relationship with God, the Father of Jesus Christ.
If you’d like to find out more about indoubt, you can go to indoubt.ca if you’re in Canada, and indoubt.com if you’re in the United States. Download our app and follow us for social media updates. We would love to hear from you as well. And make sure you tune in for next week’s episode as we talk with Alison Stevens, who is a psychologist and the clinical director at Wagner Hills. Thanks so much for listening this week and I hope that you join us next week.

Kourtney Cromwell:
Thanks so much for listening. If you want to hear more, subscribe on iTunes and Spotify, or visit us online at indoubt.ca, or indoubt.com. We’re also on social media, so make sure to follow us on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter.