Ep. 19: DEEPENING FAITH, CONNECTION, AND SISTERHOOD w/ The Well

Andrew Marcus:

Hey, this is Andrew Marcus. Thank you for tuning in for THE INDOUBT SHOW. We have a fantastic show today. We have Malissa MacWilliams and Nicole Martens from The Well, a wonderful ministry that’s reaching out to young women, helping them, equipping them with the truths of the gospel. It’s a 10-week program going through John for the women at The Well, and it’s just absolutely brilliant, but before we dive into the interview, we’re going to be doing a segment called Dangerous Doctrines.

Speaker 1:

Whoa. Looks like it’s time for Dangerous Doctrines. Dangerous Doctrines.

Andrew Marcus:

All right, so before I read a quote, you’re probably wondering, what is dangerous doctrines? Well, we go through this segment where we walk through different quotes that pastors have said or preachers have said from the pulpit, and we just unpack it, show maybe the reality that maybe it’s not biblical, and help our listeners get an understanding of what the scriptures actually say. So this is for your good and for your protection. So this is the quote that I’ll be reading today that someone preached on a Sunday morning.

This is what it says. “I just want to encourage every one of us to realize that when we obey God, we’re not doing it for God. I mean, that’s one way to look at it. We’re doing it for ourselves because God takes pleasure when we’re happy. That’s the thing that gets him the greatest joy this morning. So I want you to know this morning, just do good for your own self. Do good because God wants you to be happy. When you come to church, when you worship him, you’re not doing it for God really. You’re doing it for yourself because that’s what makes God happy. Amen.”

Wow, wow, wow. Okay. That is not true. Let’s unpack this a little bit and get some truth, because this is a little bit crazy. We don’t go for ourselves. It’s not because God wants us to be happy. We don’t go to church to make us happy. When we come to community, when we gather together, we worship, we sing. We sing to a holy God, not to make us happy, but because he is worthy of our worship, our adoration, and our praise. He is good. We are sinful, we’re broken, and we are in desperate need of a savior. Now, listen, does God take delight when we’re happy? Sure.

I’m not saying it doesn’t delight him when we are happy, joyful, and thankful. But what I am saying is we don’t serve God, go to church, worship God through song and action just to be happy. This is not the sole purpose of our happiness. Happiness is all the rage these days, but why is that dangerous? Why is that theology dangerous? It’s because if happiness is the yardstick that we base all of our decisions on, well, you can only imagine how quickly we will go downhill. We could quickly spiral down sinful paths because we think, “Well, this is going to make me happy, so it must be making God happy as well.”

I’m here to tell you folks, that is not the reality and that’s not how we have to live. This is the big takeaway. God calls us to be holy, not happy. He’s calling us to holiness and not happiness. 1 Peter 1:14-16 (NLT) says, “So you must live as God’s obedient children. Don’t slip back into your old ways of living to satisfy your own desires. You didn’t know any better then. But now you must be holy in everything you do, just as God who chose you is holy. For the scriptures says, ‘You must be holy because I am holy.'” As believers, we need to pursue holiness, not happiness, and so beware of that false teaching.

If you hear it, honestly, run for the hills. It is not of God. Be glued to your word, and we pray that as you are glued to your word, you will be able to discern truth from the pulpit. On today’s program, we have great guests, Malissa and Nicole. They’re from The Well and they are doing the exact thing that we are excited about. They are teaching truth. They have a women’s ministry where their main purpose is going through John 4, The Woman at the Well. They are just strategically doing this 10-week program to help women focus on truth, focus on Christ, what he’s done for them, so we’re grateful for their ministry. We’re grateful to have them on the program today. We hope you enjoy today’s show. All right. We are here. We have Malissa MacWilliams, and we have Nicole Martens. Martins or Marten?

Nicole Martens:

Martens.

Andrew Marcus:

Martens. Okay.

Nicole Martens:

Yeah, you got it.

Andrew Marcus:

Thank the Lord, that I didn’t want to butcher that, and I did, but that’s okay. We’re so happy to have you guys on the show today. So you guys are from The Well and a ministry that’s helping connect young and old, just women in general to just Jesus and being in community and the importance of that. We’re going to talk through that a little bit, but before we dive into what you guys are doing ministry wise, just tell us a little bit about yourselves and maybe even how the ministry started, because I remember you were saying that you guys were both on staff together at a church. So just walk us through your friendship journey into ministry journey.

Nicole Martens:

Yeah, totally. So Malissa and I met a few years ago working at the same church. So we both came on staff and we were two people who never ever thought we would ever work on a church staff.

Malissa MacWilliams:

Not at all.

Nicole Martens:

But the Lord-

Andrew Marcus:

Was your guys’ roles on staff?

Nicole Martens:

So I was graphic designer, and then Malissa was overseeing events and guest services. So the Lord brought us there. We had both walked down similar paths of walking away from the church or growing up in a Christian home, or Catholic for Malissa, walking away from the church, and then the Lord bringing us back to him through different life circumstances, through the ups and downs, and then both ended up on staff at the church and met each other there, and we both were completely transformed in that community. We both didn’t have good girlfriends, we didn’t have good community around us, and so when we came to the church, we had all these amazing people, the staff and the congregation and the people that we met just completely helped transform our lives and met Jesus in brand new ways and started taking courses and classes that were offered and just realized the power of community and how every woman needs this and how if we maybe had that in the past, our lives would’ve looked a little bit different, but we really found healing and then our friendship through through that community.

Andrew Marcus:

That’s so cool. When did you guys start, or when were you working on staff together? What year was that? Do you remember?

Malissa MacWilliams:

It was 2018.

Andrew Marcus:

Okay, so pre-COVID.

Nicole Martens:

Yes.

Malissa MacWilliams:

To the beginning of 2020. Right before COVID.

Andrew Marcus:

Right before COVID. So you left staff right before COVID? Was that a prophecy? You’re like, “I have a sense the Lord is saying-“

Malissa MacWilliams:

Honestly, I feel like it was just part of God’s plan. Yeah. But yeah, similar to what Nicole said, my life totally changed while working for a church. It was never something I would’ve planned. I was going on a very different trajectory for myself. I have worked in the events industry for the past 10 years, and so I was involved very much in that, very much in the secular world, the corporate world, just trying to chase those career goals and just really not focused on God at all. Got into just some dark places, I think, in my life and just had very high walls up, very high walls. Didn’t have very many deep friends or people that shared the same faith that I did, not that faith was very important to me at that time. It wasn’t something I was prioritizing. It was something I think I was avoiding because I wanted to live life my own way, my own path.

I didn’t want to maybe face certain things. I was also having a lot of struggles that I just kept buried and pretended that weren’t actually there. Literally, God, just one day took me out of just a situation that I needed to get out of and placed me in a church, honestly, when I was really in the thick of a lot of things, and I was so just embraced and welcomed and understood truly what community is really supposed to be in the context of Christian community. I had female mentorships that came and took me under their wing at that church. Really supportive counselors, just pastors that helped me and friends like Nicole, who had been through very similar things that I had.

My wall slowly started to come down, and with a lot of just healing and self-reflection, and just finally allowing God to come into my life, we just realized we’re not the only ones that are struggling with this. There are so many other women that deal with things in silence or have bad experiences with other… just friends or women or just the church in general and shut down and don’t want anything to do with it. We get that. We’ve been there and you can go and do things your own way, but at the end of the day, I’m not smarter than God. I’m not better than God’s way.

Andrew Marcus:

We make lousy gods.

Nicole Martens:

No. We make lousy gods.

Malissa MacWilliams:

We make horrible-

Andrew Marcus:

Every time we try, it’s like, “This is the worst. I am the worst God.”

Nicole Martens:

Exactly.

Andrew Marcus:

It’s so cool to see the significance of community and how community heals, community restores, and just like you, find freedom in community. We’re not called to do life alone, so that’s really cool. I think another thing that’s really important is just seeing the reality that you guys realize your stories were similar. I think a lot of people think they’re on their own, and then you realize, wow… We had a counselor on the show a couple weeks ago, and he was just talking about depression, anxiety, all that kind of stuff. It’s like the guy’s reading my journal, and then I realized, oh, millions of people feel the exact same way. Even with your stories and just seeing these women that are just so in need of community, it’s so important. You’re not alone. Even the things you struggle with, you’re not struggling alone. It’s cool that both of you have been healed and restored in community, and now you’re starting a ministry to foster that community, so tell us a little bit about this ministry, The Well.

Nicole Martens:

Totally. Yeah. So The Well was created through… We were looking for community. We were looking for what we wish we had had in the church, and then we realized that there was this spot in the middle that wasn’t getting any attention, or that was a missed opportunity. So there was something for youth, and then there was something for young adults, or there was something for women who were in women’s ministry that was more focused to wives and moms, but the young adult space felt like it was just men and women coming together trying to find a spouse, but there wasn’t that deep connection, that deep healing, that space to come together and ask those hard questions and feel accepted and just in a safe space. So we were like, “Okay, there’s nothing here that we have found for women. Let’s create our own.”

We both started praying about it, talking to our mentors, asking for advice and what could be done, and then God brought this story of John 4, the Woman at the Well, the Samaritan woman at the well unto our hearts, and just the power of that story, the power of that woman coming to the well by herself, and then meeting Jesus, having this crazy encounter that changed her life, and then going back into her community and totally transforming the whole city, the whole community. So we started working away on this curriculum and pulling all these themes out of the story of what we were feeling, like these lies that we were carrying, these labels that were put on us that maybe the Samaritan woman also felt, or the things that she was worshiping and what we worship or the relationships.

She’s called out for having these five husbands or these five men in her life, and how many times… Women in relationships, we could talk about that for hours. So we started pulling these themes and seeing this 10-week curriculum start coming together, and then we just started building this practice and inviting our friends into it and inviting these women to come into these safe spaces and have these conversations. God’s just taken it from there and just used it to bring these beautiful stories of transformation and life change and connection and friendships. It’s just been a really cool journey to see where God’s taking it and using it.

Andrew Marcus:

Wow. Amazing.

Malissa MacWilliams:

We also, when we were at the church, went through a healing discipleship program called Freedom Session, and it was very impactful for the both of us, and we were just so influenced by it, and we saw, within the context of that small group, how powerful those spaces were, and just the healing that can come from them when you do have a small group that is willing to dive deeper and go deeper and maybe address those things that they don’t even know they need to address, but maybe within the context of that small group, you can get a different perspective on your own life, and God can use those people also to speak into your life when you are open to it. So we were really inspired by that, and we frame the group around that small group model. It has been incredible.

Andrew Marcus:

So I know Freedom Sessions, it goes for a pretty long time, right?

Nicole Martens:

Yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

It’s heart work, but it’s hard work, which is really good and important work, but how long… Freedom Sessions is… How long is it?

Malissa MacWilliams:

Six months.

Andrew Marcus:

Six months.

Malissa MacWilliams:

Yeah, about 22 weeks I think.

Andrew Marcus:

Okay. So I did something similar to Freedom Session, but it was literally a weekend retreat, so it was obviously not as deep, but it was confessing sin with different people. It’s called Set Free. That changed my life dramatically, so I can’t imagine a six month where that’s fantastic. So you guys have a similar model in the sense of it’s a program you sign up for and you’re in a part of a group and you journey together.

Malissa MacWilliams:

Yeah. Yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

Cool.

Malissa MacWilliams:

We’re changing things now so that people can actually just do it at any time. So they can sign up and get the curriculum, they get the workbooks. So if they have their own small group or community group or even just a couple friends, they’re able to just get everything sent to them and then they start. Yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

That’s awesome. It’s a 10-week program?

Nicole Martens:

It’s 10 weeks, so it’s much more attainable to do than six months, and we do go quite deep quite quickly, so it’s like a baby Freedom Session.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah, yeah. That’s awesome. If that’s a baby Freedom Session, my weekend retreat was like a… I don’t even know.

Nicole Martens:

A newborn.

Andrew Marcus:

A newborn, yeah. A brand newborn. That’s amazing. Okay, cool. So when did you guys start The Well?

Malissa MacWilliams:

We started working on it in 2020, right when the world shut down actually. Right at the beginning of the pandemic, and it was actually a blessing because we had the time all of a sudden. I had never had that much time ever, and it was like, “Okay, God, what do you want us to do right now?” He just led us to… Also, Nicole and I stayed connected throughout that time while working on this. Even ourselves. I think I definitely probably would’ve gone crazy during that time.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah. You obviously both needed that for yourselves too.

Malissa MacWilliams:

Totally, because we had just had this experience of community, whereas we were in a lot of isolation before, and then the pandemic came, so it could have been an opportunity to go right back.

Andrew Marcus:

Yes, for sure.

Malissa MacWilliams:

Instead, we really relied on each other and how can we prevent this from happening to other people? All of 2020, we worked on it, and then we built the curriculum, the workbook and the website. I think we launched at the end of that year.

Andrew Marcus:

End of 2020.

Malissa MacWilliams:

In the fall of 2020, yep.

Andrew Marcus:

What a perfect time, because I feel like people were desperate for community, and we were told we weren’t allowed. So did you guys start on Zoom or how did it work?

Nicole Martens:

We did. We started all our groups online. We had almost 100 women go through our first launch.

Andrew Marcus:

Wow.

Nicole Martens:

You could just see that craving for community.

Andrew Marcus:

That’s amazing. Wow. That’s amazing.

Nicole Martens:

Everyone was still trying to figure out if the discipleship could work over Zoom or online, and nothing stops the Holy Spirit. These girls were going deep every night.

Andrew Marcus:

That’s amazing. Yeah.

Malissa MacWilliams:

Yeah. Even on Zoom, we were worried about that. Will people really connect on a screen on the computer? But honestly, we had crazy testimonials come out of that first session. People were just needing to connect. We tried to facilitate that as best that we could, so we created a whole separate workbook for the facilitator to come on. We created a training series for them to actually get trained on this is how to best facilitate this. This is how to create the space that we want. We actually walk them through each of the 10 stages, so really, anyone who has a desire to lead this group is able to do it.

Andrew Marcus:

Wow. That is amazing. So you have all the resources available. There’s no excuse.

Nicole Martens:

Yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

So ladies who are watching-

Malissa MacWilliams:

Anyone can do it.

Andrew Marcus:

There is no excuse.

Nicole Martens:

No excuse.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah. You can try.

Nicole Martens:

Leading can be scary, so we’re like-

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah, it’s true.

Nicole Martens:

… “No, we’re going to resource it the best we can.”

Malissa MacWilliams:

Yeah. Let’s remove the barriers.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah. That’s amazing. Praise God. I love it. So we see obviously a massive importance of community. We saw pandemic, communities being shattered and the importance, all these people who signed up the first year, it’s so cool. Praise God. So specifically with women only ministry, and of course, there’s men’s only ministries too, what’s the importance and the significance of having something like that in your life?

Malissa MacWilliams:

As a women’s only ministry?

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah.

Malissa MacWilliams:

Yeah, I think there are spaces sometimes where it’s great to have that woman-to-woman dynamic. I think there are certain things that are just easier to talk about with your girlfriends or easier to just talk about with women, but that being said, some people don’t have a great experience with other women. They have negative experiences, or they haven’t experienced that safe space with other females or with other girlfriends that they’ve had in the past, or they don’t have good experiences even with girls in the church. So sometimes they can encounter just a lot of judgment or maybe self-righteous behavior. I think what’s been amazing about this is just the opportunity to redeem that space and to show… Starting with our facilitators, we were really passionate about modeling that to them and encouraging them to set that example and to demonstrate that by leading by example and just encouraging that you can share anything in this space. This is a… What do you call it? Classified…

Nicole Martens:

Yeah. Nothing’s leaving these walls.

Malissa MacWilliams:

Nothing is leaving these walls. What is shared in the group stays in the group, and also, when the facilitator starts by leading with vulnerability, it encourages other people then to open up, and all of a sudden… So many times, we’ve heard women say, “I’ve never shared this with anyone before, but…” Then they share, and on the third night, people share their testimonies, their full testimonies. That’s the whole third session, is just everyone goes around and shares their testimony. Then every single one of the girls or women is able to share something that was beautiful about that story. So they have immediate positive feedback.

Nicole Martens:

Wow. Praise God.

Malissa MacWilliams:

I think because we’re all women and we all go through very similar things, it’s a space where people are really able to relate to each other and to just forget whatever they’re dealing with, or maybe just leave certain things at the door or maybe just bring it in and they’re able to just share it to women who are open and willing to do the same thing.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah. Praise God. Do you have a lot of people who join that are non-believers, or is it mostly maybe people who are believers but they’re questioning or going through hardship? Would it be more of an evangelistic ministry or just equipping believers?

Nicole Martens:

It is more of a discipleship tool than an evangelistic tool. We hope that everyone who comes in has a base knowledge. A lot of the women have either walked away and come back or haven’t… What’s cool is a lot of women have this idea of who they think Jesus is, that maybe they’ve picked up from going to Sunday school or something, but their relationship with him has never actually become their own. We explain the Holy Spirit, we explain who Jesus is, we explain the Father, we explain as much as we can, and we don’t talk in this Christianese language where… We try to explain everything. We try not to use words that maybe the non-Christian won’t know like fellowship or something. People are like, “What is that?”

Malissa MacWilliams:

Or even the Christians. It’s like, you’ve used this word your whole life, but could you explain it?

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah. Sometimes you’re like-

Malissa MacWilliams:

Do you really know what it is?

Andrew Marcus:

… “I don’t think so.” For sure.

Nicole Martens:

Totally. So we do explain as much as possible, and the questions are all very personal, and regardless of where you are, whether you’ve never known who Jesus is or you’ve been in church your whole life, you’ll be able to answer all of the questions because they’re so personal and so deep and reflective, but yeah, we do hope that people have a background, so it’s just easier to follow along, but for the most part, it’s for any woman at any life stage. We’ve had such a range of women from baby new Christian, not a Christian too, following their whole life.

Andrew Marcus:

Wow. Is there an age group that you guys specifically target, or is it open or…

Malissa MacWilliams:

Yeah, we originally wanted to target women 18 to 35.

Andrew Marcus:

Perfect.

Malissa MacWilliams:

That was originally who we were wanting to target, and I think it still is primarily because that’s where we realized there’s the opportunity.

Andrew Marcus:

There is a gap missing. Yeah.

Malissa MacWilliams:

There’s a gap missing. Yeah, there is. There is. We just wanted a place that wasn’t maybe what people would’ve traditionally thought of as women’s ministry. We also had some views on that, and so we really wanted to create something different that… Just leave your labels at the door. You’re not a mother, you’re not a wife, you’re not single, you’re not whatever you think that you are. You’re just a woman. You’re a daughter of God. We all are, and that’s really what we wanted to showcase.

Andrew Marcus:

So targeting 18 to 35, but obviously, there’s some flexibility.

Nicole Martens:

Totally.

Malissa MacWilliams:

Yeah, and then it grew from there then.

Nicole Martens:

Yeah. We’ve had groups… I think our youngest has been 18 or no, 17 or 18.

Malissa MacWilliams:

Yeah.

Nicole Martens:

Then our oldest I think was 65.

Malissa MacWilliams:

Yeah.

Nicole Martens:

It’s so cool to see what each one will get out of it. Our one 17 year old, she was like, “I thought I had to be older to take this, but this has been so transformative,” because she’s trying to figure out where to go to school and what to do next, and she’s like, “This has been so enlightening for me-“

Andrew Marcus:

Wow. Praise God.

Nicole Martens:

… “and to have this community around me to speak into my life and give real life examples of what they’ve gone through,” and then also to have the older women just to… I think a lot of these questions, they might not have ever been asked before or maybe been in a safe space where they can actually have that deep self-reflection, because I think a lot of therapy and counseling and stuff in the older generations didn’t seem to be maybe much encouraged or things like that, so these women-

Andrew Marcus:

A stigma. There was a stigma with that. Yeah.

Nicole Martens:

Exactly. Yeah. So there was a lot of walls and closed offness to that, and so to watch these women open up in their groups, and we try to keep them around the same age so that they can relate to each other. Yeah, to see them be able to open up and answer these questions and get something from it has been really cool.

Andrew Marcus:

That’s huge. That’s so cool.

Malissa MacWilliams:

The questions, they’re also very open-ended, so there’s no right or wrong answers to any of the discussion questions. We design that very intentionally so that no matter where you are at, they would be applicable to you. You can actually go through it even multiple times and get a completely different experience depending on where you’re at, and we just had women from all ages coming to us asking if they could do it too, so we took another look at it and we’re like, “Okay, can they? Does this work?” We made a couple tweaks here and there, but then we realized, actually, I think we can just open this up, and so we have now, and-

Andrew Marcus:

Praise God.

Malissa MacWilliams:

… yeah. We’re starting to partner with churches now, just offering it as a resource to them, and it’s been a great discipleship tool.

Andrew Marcus:

So great. What a cool thing to think that… a sad reality that someone in their 60s have been holding onto something for so long, but what an amazing opportunity to create a space where they could put their walls down and finally just feel freedom and sharing. That’s just so beautiful. We also target with INDOUBT 18 to 35, but again, we have people a little younger. I think a lady called in a few months ago, and she was in her 70s or 80s, and she was like, “I just want to call and say I love THE INDOUBT SHOW.” So if you’re watching right now-

Nicole Martens:

Amazing.

Andrew Marcus:

… we love you.

Nicole Martens:

Amazing.

Andrew Marcus:

Thank you so much, but we hit our target and then we just watch God just do what only God can do. It’s really cool. That’s amazing. So what’s the best way that our viewers, listeners can be in touch with you guys, get involved, maybe sign up or get access to the 10-week program?

Nicole Martens:

Yeah. Totally. The best way to find out more is definitely our website, so thewellpractice.com, and then we also have our Instagram account that we keep pretty updated with announcements and things that are going on. We’re starting a few events this year, so everything will be on our Instagram, which is The Well Center, @thewellcenter.

Andrew Marcus:

Cool. Actual live events, or what do you mean?

Nicole Martens:

Yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

Oh, cool. Tell us about that. That’s fun.

Malissa MacWilliams:

Yeah, so I’m-

Andrew Marcus:

That’s new, obviously, for you guys. Yeah. Cool.

Malissa MacWilliams:

It is new. Yeah. We wanted to do it from the very beginning, but we were in the middle of the pandemic, so it wasn’t happening, but yeah, we’re really excited just to host some in-person events, so bringing people together who have either done this program so that they can meet people from different demographics, different ages, just different groups, different cities. So in the next year, we are going to be doing a Well retreat or a wellness retreat, which is going to be an overnight thing.

Andrew Marcus:

Wellness retreat.

Malissa MacWilliams:

Wellness retreat.

Andrew Marcus:

Okay.

Malissa MacWilliams:

Our take on it.

Andrew Marcus:

That sounds amazing.

Malissa MacWilliams:

What does true wellness mean?

Andrew Marcus:

Yes. That’s actually genius. Okay. That’s genius.

Malissa MacWilliams:

Yeah. So that will be upcoming next year, and then we’ve also got a fun Christmas event planned as well for the end of this year.

Andrew Marcus:

That’s amazing. That’s amazing. Praise God. Okay, well, you heard the resources. We have resources available, indoubt.ca, so you can make sure you get connected and there’s literally no excuse. Everything is set up for you. They’ve made, facilitate… Everything is ready, so there’s literally no excuse. It’s so important for you to be in community, and so we’ve seen testimonies of two similar stories and how walls were broken down, barriers were removed by the power of Jesus in the midst of community. Thank you so much. I really appreciate both of you and your ministry-

Nicole Martens:

Thank you.

Andrew Marcus:

… and all the best to you, and I can’t wait to hear about all you do in the future.

Malissa MacWilliams:

Thank you so much.

Nicole Martens:

Thank you so much.

Malissa MacWilliams:

Thank you.

Andrew Marcus:

Awesome. Hey, thanks so much for joining us today. For more great content, check out THE INDOUBT SHOW on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Music, or wherever you stream your podcast. We hope you enjoyed it today. Feel free to check out indoubt.ca. We have some great resources available to you. Have an awesome day.

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