Ep. 207: 2019 in Review

Kourtney Cromwell:
Welcome to the indoubt Podcast, where we explore the challenging topics that young adults often face. Each week we talk with guests who help answer questions of faith, life and culture, connecting them to our daily experiences and God’s Word. For more info on indoubt, visit indoubt.ca or indoubt.com.

Kourtney Cromwell:
Hey everyone, its Kourtney, and I’m so glad that you’re joining us for the last episode of 2019. Of course, there’s so many things that have happened in the past year, and it would be impossible to go through them all. But on this week’s episode, we’re joined by Joshua, Isaac and Daniel, and they’re taking a look back at the year in review. Whether it happened in pop culture, the church, or if it shook the world, we’re exploring the ups and downs of the past year before we jump into 2020. So I hope that you enjoy this episode with all three of your indoubt hosts.

Daniel Markin:
Welcome to indoubt, my name is Daniel and I’m joined here by my friend Josh.

Joshua Scott:
Yeah, good to be here.

Daniel Markin:
And my friend Isaac.

Isaac Dagneau:
Yes.

Daniel Markin:
Fellas, how are we doing?

Joshua Scott:
Doing well, things are good.

Isaac Dagneau:
Yeah, it is, it is good.

Daniel Markin:
Good.

Joshua Scott:
How are you doing?

Daniel Markin:
I’m doing really well, I mean, we’ve made it to the end of the year.

Joshua Scott:
That’s right.

Daniel Markin:
Right. We have made it past Christmas, and now we’re sitting here reflecting on this past year. Big events for Josh and I this past year.

Joshua Scott:
Yeah.

Daniel Markin:
We got married, totally. And I’m sure all the wedding talk Isaac brings back in all the flooding of memories of your wedding-

Isaac Dagneau:
Oh yeah, so good. I’m happy for you guys.

Daniel Markin:
What’s your fondest memory of your wedding? Do you have a fondest memory?

Isaac Dagneau:
It was all so surreal and a blur, I don’t know if it was for you guys.

Joshua Scott:
Right, it goes by fast.

Isaac Dagneau:
It goes by so fast, and it’s kind of fun before the actual ceremony everything, I was doing a lot of work. But then once it started, everything else is taken care of. So, I just got to kind of, it was like a ride, it was like a rollercoaster ride. And it was like okay, it is fun, it’s really fun. So yeah, anyways it was good.

Daniel Markin:
Josh.

Joshua Scott:
2019, good year, yeah. The wedding went really well. It was actually, it was very cool that morning, but one of the things that Chelan and I have been thinking about the whole way through our dating, our engagement was this Ephesians 5:32. This mystery is profound, and I’m saying it, it refers to Christ in the church, is Paul writing. And so the whole time we’re talking about how the marriage covenant is supposed to image the relationship between Christ and His Church, and I thought, on my wedding day, that was the one day in my whole life, Lord willing, that I will ever stand in that place to see that picture. That I will ever stand in, the picture is that the man stands as Christ to receive his Bride, the church, which is who Christ receives.
To be standing there and to imagine that picture of Christ accepting me in all that I am, and all that He has redeemed me to be, it was pretty cool to…

Isaac Dagneau:
That’s awesome.

Joshua Scott:
… think that that’s the one day in my life that I’ll have that, and I just wanted to savour that really well. It was a great day.

Isaac Dagneau:
That’s awesome.

Daniel Markin:
Amazing. Yeah, my wedding day was awesome too, you’re right, it’s a blur, it was a blast.

Joshua Scott:
A blur and a blast.

Daniel Markin:
A blur and a blast and I highly recommend it, so.
Hey fellas, listen, I have in front of me a list of items that I want to talk about. It’s common in our culture to look back and reflect on the year, look at 2019, the highs and the lows. So, I have along with you guys, and our producer, Kourtney, she has put together a list of things that we can just chat about. The purpose of this episode is going to be basically, we’re just going to go back and forth and just discuss these things as we see fit. We might spend a little bit of time on them, maybe spend a lot of time on them, but there’s not really a massive structure to this episode. Other than that, we’re just going to talk and see where it takes us.

Isaac Dagneau:
Sounds good, okay.

Daniel Markin:
So the first thing I have to do is 2019 brought us the much highly anticipated Disney plus.

Joshua Scott:
Big topic.

Isaac Dagneau:
Which I should say that I just kind of found out about today maybe. I maybe have heard about it a little bit, but you guys you can take the floor on this one.

Daniel Markin:
Have either of you guys got a subscription to Disney plus?

Joshua Scott:
I do, my wife and I just finalized one yesterday. And you have one I’m guessing?

Daniel Markin:
I do yeah, what we did is a few people in the office, we all got together and pitched in. And so, we’re sharing an account, which is a really fun way of doing it, but dude there’s so much on there.

Joshua Scott:
What a throwback it is to all those old Disney movies, you got Lady And The Tramp and Milo Thatch, what is it? Something to Atlantis, I don’t know what it is but it’s about Atlantis.

Isaac Dagneau:
Nice, nice.

Daniel Markin:
Not even that, but the throwback to the old Disney shows growing up.

Joshua Scott:
Right, like the Mickey Mouse or?

Daniel Markin:
Mickey Mouse or Lizzie McGuire and all of these …

Joshua Scott:
Sorry – you watched that?

Daniel Markin:
You know I had a sister, and dude yeah, I mean I grew up with that show, Kim Possible all these other cartoon, Even Stevens I think is on there.

Isaac Dagneau:
Oh nice. Is Dexter part of – Dexter’s Laboratory?

Daniel Markin:
I think Dexter was Cartoon Network. But there is so much on there, and I had no idea that Disney actually, so they have their Pixar, so you have every Pixar movie.

Isaac Dagneau:
Disney owns Pixar.

Daniel Markin:
Disney owns Pixar, yeah. So, this is basically a Disney Netflix, and they’re slowly I think, I believe pulling all their stuff off of Netflix once those contracts run out, and they’re just going to put it exclusively on Disney plus. So, the catalog is enormous, but you have all the Pixar movies there, you have National Geographic documentaries that are now owned by them, you have Star Wars, you have Marvel, so cinematic universes galore. So, I’ve had a lot of fun, my wife and I are now watching all the Star Wars. She’s like, “I’ve only seen number seven.” So we did it the right way, the way it’s supposed to be watched, where we have gone through 1, 2, 3, then we watch Rogue 1, 4, 5, 6, 7 and right now we’re making it to, The Last Jedi.

Joshua Scott:
Right on. You even plugged Rogue One in the right place.

Daniel Markin:
We did, yeah, and that’s an important movie in the whole saga.

Joshua Scott:
What’s so interesting about all the conversations I’ve had about Disney plus is as much as there’s these new, the Mandalorian, this new Star Wars thing and all the Marvel movies that are on there, what I hear about the most are those classic Disney movies. I’m hearing about the Cinderella, and the Beauty and the Beast, these things that people are throwing right back to their childhood. I think it’s really interesting to see how today there is this sense about us that we want to go back to those warm memories.
It’s almost like we’re looking for something stable, some people watch movies because it’s something totally unknown, it’s a new story. But when it comes to this, people are going back to what they know. I know how the movie goes, I know that in the Lady And The Tramp, the dogs kiss.

Isaac Dagneau:
Yeah, it’s like comfort food, it’s like going back to your mom’s house.

Daniel Markin:
It evokes – it evokes a feeling that I have in my past, and all these memories that come flooding back.

Joshua Scott:
Totally.
I almost wonder if it shows us the sense about us and particularly in our young adult age that we’re looking ahead and we’re thinking life is so uncertain, right? I’m making these plans and I’m making these decisions and I’m trying to, particularly as a Christian, I’m trying to navigate this world of, how do I follow after the Lord? How to be faithful to him, but also pursue a job, because I need to earn money and there’s all these questions, and quite often we’re flooded with this sense of uncertainty that can often fill us with stress, right? And anxiety, well, what’s going to be my life?
But to go back and to sit down and for two hours or however long, maybe is an hour and 10 minutes, even the short ones, and watch a movie that I know, that I remember, it throws me back to my childhood where there’s comfort and there was stability. I almost think it says something about where we are today as a young adult culture, at the young adult age, that we’re so nervous about what’s coming, that we want to go back and we just want to pause for a minute and go back to what we know.

Daniel Markin:
So Josh, you think it’s a healthy practice to do?

Joshua Scott:
I don’t think it’s necessarily unhealthy, at times, but if it’s an escape from the future, if it’s an escape from the now, because I don’t trust God, I think absolutely, that’s unhealthy. Because as it is, as Christians we know this is James saying, “What’s your life? It’s a mist. You can’t even say I’m going to go to the next town tomorrow, but you should say if the Lord wills it, I’m going to go.” And so, we ought to walk with actually a confidence that Christ is behind us, the Holy Spirit is guiding us. We walk by the Spirit. We’re led by the Spirit. There’s a confidence about the Christian life. But to go back and enjoy memories of childhood, I actually think can be a really healthy thing, not necessarily a bad thing.

Isaac Dagneau:
I was going to say I haven’t personally kept up on Disney movies lately, I’m just not a huge Disney person, some people are, obviously I’m with two of them, no I’m kidding. But no, I was just going to say though, about two years ago, my wife and I sat down we watched 101 Dalmatians, and I was blown away at how morally beautiful the family, Pongo, just the accountability, the love, and the dedication of this father dog loving his wife dog, and his children. We watched the whole thing and I was astounded at how Christian it was without any obviously major Christian things, but just the morality of it. I was like, man, I’m happy to let my kids watch this movie, because it was just so, so good.

Joshua Scott:
Interesting, and then this whole Mandalorian new Star Wars, Daniel, I feel like you might have something to say about that.

Daniel Markin:
Dude, I’m watching the Mandalorian, I have quite a breadth of Star Wars knowledge myself, but Mandalorian’s been a lot of fun, and it’s been a good time of, it’s kind of like you would wait so long for these new Star Wars movies to come out right, and then you get to see the new story for yourself. It’s fun to see something coming out weekly that’s done live action. I know they had the Clone Wars, but it was kind of a cartoon and animated series. But having something live action that is actually done really well has been a lot of fun.
I’m excited about the future of them making more shows. Largely because Star Wars for me is about the universe, so it’s this little Mandalorian, this new show is like growing this corner of the universe that you didn’t really know existed. So, introducing new characters and new ideas to the Star Wars universe. I mean, have you guys seen any of the memes about the baby Yoda?

Joshua Scott:
Oh yeah.
Yeah, didn’t know where they were from. I saw, I watched the trailer to the newest Star Wars and there’s no baby Yoda, and then I realized from the Mandalorian.

Daniel Markin:
So, lots of that happening, people are loving that. Are you guys going to go see the new episode nine Star Wars?

Joshua Scott:
Yeah, you know what, I’m curious to see, because what you see in Star Wars, especially in the newest ones, is you move, I mean, it’s a very, they’re trying to speak of good and evil as two balancing forces, right? It’s the Yin and Yang. As the evil rises up so the good is going to rise up against it, and conversely, as the good rises up, evil is going to rise up against it. So, I’m curious if they’re going to come to a conclusion in episode nine that has the light or the good win. Is this still something as a culture that we see the good has to win in such a way that the evil is now doused, or is it always going to be perpetual story of good and evil at war with each other that never ends?

Isaac Dagneau:
Probably.

Joshua Scott:
I almost think that it’s going to be that. So, I’m curious, I’m curious where they’re going to land.

Isaac Dagneau:
Interesting. I can’t say too much about it. I don’t know. I mean sorry guys.

Daniel Markin:
No, it’s okay.

Isaac Dagneau:
I don’t know if it’s because I live in Mission or something, but maybe. I just haven’t been up to the end with Star Wars. But I do enjoy watching them there, I feel like it’s like a roller coaster.

Joshua Scott:
It a fun story, yeah.

Daniel Markin:
And they’re visually amazing, that’s the things that you watch them you’re like you go… Part of the reason you watch Star Wars is for the visuals. Okay, next topic, man. Let’s go here. Kanye West.
Dude, he’s a Christian now. Kanye West’s releases a gospel album. Did you guys listen to the album?

Joshua Scott:
I’ve only listened to pieces. I haven’t listened to the whole thing.

Isaac Dagneau:
Yeah, same.

Daniel Markin:
Okay, so I had a large listen through this thing many times. And dude, it’s quite the album. And the lyrics in this album are actually so gospel-centred, it’s really amazing. So, I think a lot of us in the evangelical world would look at Kanye West and see his conversion to faith and be really skeptical about it, right? And then I’m listening to these lyrics and then hearing him talk. And there’s another pastor, I think his name’s Adam Tyson was the guy who was kind of mentoring him. And basically, he was, Kanye basically came to him and said, “Look, I’ve had a miraculous conversion, I believe in Christ, and I need to be taught.” And he showed up at just a really small church, and just very humbly was trying to learn from this pastor and stuff.

Joshua Scott:
So apparently as they’re writing this album, this pastor is helping him craft these lyrics, so that they’re orthodox. And it was a really amazing listen to hear music done at a really high level, and that’s not to say Christian music isn’t done at a high level, but it’s just interesting seeing someone like Kanye West doing explicit gospel music, and to have it so well received. It became, he released it I think in late November, or maybe early November. And automatically shot up to being one of the top albums. It was amazing how fast it exploded onto the scene. So, I’m a big fan of the album and I’m curious to you guys to think what you guys think about I mean this conversion story by him. Are you guys skeptical about it? Do you believe him? Have you looked enough into it?

Isaac Dagneau:
I haven’t looked too much into it, I have listened to it a little bit, I get both sides, it’s easy to… Just because it’s human nature to see where he was, but then that’s what testimonies are, where someone was to where they are now after they’ve come to see Christ. So I think it’s really hard when we don’t know him, and we have to judge him-

Daniel Markin:
We feel like we know him, because we’ve seen so much of him in interviews –

Isaac Dagneau:
And anyone who’s on stage and who’s in the limelight, you learn to have this relationship with them and you don’t actually know them. But I think with Kanye, all we see from him is we hear his lyrics and we see his interview clips and we see him on the different… He was with Jimmy Kimmel. We see him on these different shows and we see him at Osteen’s church, we see him saying things and we have to judge it by that.
So it’s never going to be sure, but I think we are called as, especially as Christian leaders we need to judge teachers by their fruit. So, we do have to watch him especially, because a lot of people will follow Kanye as well. So it actually is I think, and for me personally is convicting because I need to be more on top of asking the Spirit for discernment to help me know like, okay, is this someone that I’m going to be able to be totally cool with people following and endorsing and everything, because I think I’m more easily will fall into just kind of being like, Oh, I don’t know, I don’t know, I don’t know, I don’t know. And I think a lot of people do do that, because it takes work to actually try to come to a thing. So that’s kind of where I’m at right now, I need to do more. What about you?

Joshua Scott:
Yeah. I watched his interview that was on the plane, it was like the singing thing with James Corden. I was encouraged by a lot of things that Kanye West said, because they were gospel statements. On the flip side, there were a couple things that he said that I thought, Kanye I don’t know if that’s quite what you want to be saying. So, as Christians, when we look at someone like this, it seems like there’s a radical conversion. Yeah, the temptation is to fall on either side, the cynic, right, that says, he’s probably not saved, he’s still up in the big music business-

Daniel Markin:
It’s all a ploy, so he’s doing it for-

Joshua Scott:
Or you flip to the side and you just rejoice immediately, he’s saved, he’s saved, he’s saved and start telling everybody. And I think we just kind of need to slow down, because I think you’re exactly right. There’s a sense in which the Christian faith, the new birth, which the Holy Spirit grants to us, is something that is then revealed in our lives as we begin to bear fruit, the fruit of the Spirit and we live in good works, and it’s something that grows and begins to shine bright. Immediately, sometimes it can be hard to see, even biblically there are pictures of people in the soils, right? Who received the Word immediately, but the cares of the world come, and they’re not dug deep, right? And so they burn up.
So, I think we just kind of need to slow down and not be too fast to jump on either side, but I think the thing that I worry about for Kanye is that for a Christian, especially a baby Christian, a new Christian, to be in the limelight so fast can be a really scary thing, and a really difficult thing, and potentially a damaging thing. Where even in the text when we’re talking about overseers and elders, it says that they shouldn’t be a new believer, a new convert.
And so he’s kind of in this light, because he’s so famous that what he says people who are non-Christians are going to think well, this is what Christians say, this is gospel, this is the Bible. And I think what Kanye needs is to go into a local church, a healthy local church and sit under a pastor, and just grow and learn and develop as a follower of Jesus Christ. And God has put him… If he’s been born again, God’s put them in a pretty amazing place to be able to minister the gospel, let’s pray that that’s true. And I think that’s something maybe for us to encourage, and I ought to encourage myself to be praying for him, but I just think what he needs is time to grow and develop as a follower of Jesus, so that when the time comes for him to speak, he’s ready, and he’s prepared and he knows he has a reason for the hope that’s within him.

Isaac Dagneau:
Yeah.

Daniel Markin:
So Josh you’re right, we need to be praying for him and praying, but time will tell. The same thing though is I can say that and be like, “Well, time will tell for us too, and for every Christian ever.” That’s the thing is, it’s unfair for us to hold Kanye to the standard and say, “Well, time will tell Kanye,” where each one of us also actually have to persevere in faith until the end, because if we’re not going to persevere to the end, then part of being a Christian is you practice it, you profess it, and you persevere-

Isaac Dagneau:
And you endure.

Daniel Markin:
You endure to the end.

Isaac Dagneau:
Absolutely. Yeah. Cool.

Daniel Markin:
Okay, next topic. Another big thing that happened in 2019 is there’s that shooting that happened in New Zealand. Do you guys remember that?

Joshua Scott:
Yeah, that happened in Christchurch, New Zealand, right? And there were two, I believe it was two mosques that were attacked by a gunman?
Yeah, that and even I’m thinking about the Sri Lankan church bombing that happened this year, there continues to be violence.

Daniel Markin:
On religion.

Joshua Scott:
On, yeah, religious belief.
I think we know biblically that we, as Christians, are going to be persecuted, because Jesus said, “If I’m persecuted, well, how much more are you going to be persecuted?” So, we know but we even look around the world, and we see those were two mosques, right? Those were Islamic people who were attacked and killed. Now, as Christians, we sure mourn at the wickedness and the violence that happens in our world regardless of who is the victim of such things. Right. But it’s interesting to see how it seems particularly that places of religion are being targeted. There’s, I can’t remember quite what happened there was something about a Jewish synagogue that happened down in the States, all sorts of people want to rise up with violence against religion.
And I think because really when you come to religion, it’s somebody making a claim, an exclusive claim that says, “This is what’s true.” And nobody wants to hear that, especially if it pushes against what you believe is true.

Daniel Markin:
And your truth.

Joshua Scott:
And your truth, that’s right, the whole postmodern, everything’s true. I think what we see is actually sinful humanity that wants to rise up against anything that challenges it. And this is our sin nature, because we want to be right, we want to be in control and when somebody diminishes my control, my right to do what I want, well I could see why that makes me angry, right? My sin angry. I want to do what I want to do.

Isaac Dagneau:
And the perceived track record that many people have of let’s say the Islam religion or Christian religion, which people group Catholicism and everything into just Christian from the outside, the kind of perceived track record today is just one of violence. So, you just look through history is violence, violence, violence.

Daniel Markin:
Look at the crusades, look at the-

Isaac Dagneau:
Right exactly, right? So, they’ll go to that and be like, well, this hasn’t done anyone good. So, they revolt and they’re attacking violence with violence. Something also I think is important to know is that we get to see things at a global perspective that people even a hundred years ago was just different, it was just different. We hear about things that … New Zealand is a long way away, so far away, and we hear about this and I think it’s just important to know this has been going on for millennia, these little things. I remember when Paul, someone in Roman guard is pulling Paul away from some riot, and they say, “Aren’t you the assassin from the Egyptians that came up to start this revolt?” And Paul’s like, “No, no, that’s not me.”
So they accused him of this, I forget where it is exactly, but they accuse them of, “Aren’t you this assassin that led this revolt?” So, it just shows that there’s things going on all the time all around and it’s precisely because of that, I mean, that’s one aspect that you’re saying, not wanting to be in an authority kind of position, you won’t have freedom. So, you’re going to kill anything that threatens your freedom, but it happens because of sin. It’s just sin. So anyways.

Daniel Markin:
Well, we were talking a little bit about I guess, religion and culture, and another thing that happened this year in our world is the Notre Dame Cathedral –

Joshua Scott:
Right? The fire.

Daniel Markin:
Yeah, it just burst up into flames. It was interesting watching on the news, and I was following on Twitter a lot. The outrage and the panic that people had, and the ultimate, there’s a lot of devastation, people who, and rightly so it was this beautiful building, a lot of artifacts and old items in there that are really, that are important to the Western world, I guess. But what are your guys thoughts? Because I have my thoughts on this whole thing about the cathedral.
More negative.

Isaac Dagneau:
Thoughts on it?

Daniel Markin:
Well, I’m cynical, just by nature, right?

Joshua Scott:
Why don’t you just start?

Daniel Markin:
Let me just go for it, let me start with this Cynicism, right? everyone. So, we know that Europe is just a deeply secular place, and the Western world is becoming more and more secular, right? And so, it’s just interesting to see when people see a cathedral, largely Paris be a very secular place, not a lot of Christians there, when they see something that has been traditionally a Christian or a Catholic building bursting up into flames. Why would they care? Is my point, why all the outrage? And it’s like, they would refer to it as well it’s a piece of French culture. Which again just misses the point, that this was a building built to glorify God. You should be upset about that. But I’m cynical about the whole thing because everyone is so upset about this building, but it’s like, ultimately don’t even care what the building stood for. So why do you care if this building burned down? I’m just more cynical about it. What do you guys think?

Isaac Dagneau:
Well, I think you’re right, I think it comes back to that whole our love for things that are just stable, and we’re talking about the whole Disney plus thing, it comes back to that, it’s this is piece of culture. I think a lot of people could be quick just to dismiss the religion behind it be like, this is the Notre Dame. This is from my favourite movie, with the hunchback guy, right? So, it’s Quasimodo. So there’s that sense of this, so when it burns down, it’s like, well, it’s my safe memory past is dying, so it’s completely removed from religion which is sad, because we see that all around the globe we see churches constantly being either just torn down or reshaped and other things, and some people are outraged about it. A lot of people who maybe even aren’t Christians are going to be like that too, because this is part of history. Right? But I don’t know.

Daniel Markin:
And in fairness to I don’t think every secular person is a monster. I don’t want to say that, I just think it’s a lot of people would have no category as to why that, they didn’t grow up with the stories, right? So, their Christian memory is just very little for a lot of people nowadays in the Western world, like, oh, yeah, my grandpa went to church, but they don’t know much about anything about the Bible. So that’s not, I think as Christians we need to be careful about not judging them for that, well, you don’t know anything, you don’t know the significance, because they just don’t.
So again, I say, I guess it kind of feeds more into the thing, like I feel like they shouldn’t care as much, because I really don’t know much about it, so it burned up I guess it was a beautiful building, but the amount of outrage on it … It felt like it was an attack on French pride. This building is a part of our pride and our pride was hurt by this fire which brings up, that’s a whole nother can of worms, but I just. Yeah, my thought on it was it was not as deeply significant as you guys make it out to be on Twitter, right?

Joshua Scott:
But I do think I in some way I think it’s important for us to see how deeply significant the reality of history and historical monuments withering away can be. If we put that in the context of the prophet Isaiah, right? “Who says the grass withers, the flowers fall, but the word of our God shall stand forever,” right? Even in the Christian faith, there are monuments, you have the Dome of the Rock standing where the temple was, right? In Jerusalem. So, you could say, well, it seems like history has fallen and it’s faded and moved, but what stands fast? The truth, the Word of God.
So as much as these monuments and it will continue to happen as life goes on monuments will wither and fall and history will in some way be devalued or forgotten in some way, but as Christians we hold fast to this one truth that in the end, there is going to be renewal, right? That this earth, yes, it is going to pass away, everything, but there’s going to be a new earth and a new heaven, right? And so, we hold fast to that promise, it’s not that we’re looking and saying, oh, everything’s at a loss because we’re losing our history. No, no, we hold fast to the Word of God, which we have not lost, and for 2000 years, and longer in the Old Testament, has remained steadfast, we cling to that, that’s never going to fade because the Word of our God stands forever.

Isaac Dagneau:
And what’s so cool is because Notre Dame, being, when it was first made as like a place where people gather as a church, it’s like we know that the Temple of the Church is now us, which is just so empowering for Christians.

Daniel Markin:
It’s more than a building, it’s way more than building. It was amazing too one of those things that was so interesting was that, that got a lot of media coverage. And then the amount of funding that happened almost overnight, they mobilized just millions and millions of dollars to rebuild the cathedral. And then another thing that was not kind of rough that’s also been happening that really hasn’t been getting as much attention, is there’s been the Amazon rainforest has been on fire, right? And so has there been, I mean, I don’t know how you rebuild that, but it’s just interesting that for as climate aware as we are, that got way more attention than a forest that could potentially be burned down.

Joshua Scott:
I mean, it’s interesting that as a people, as a race, we’re very self-centred and this comes back to our sin, right? Our nature that wants to think about us and celebrate us. We are far quicker to go and refurbish something that celebrates the achievement of mankind than we are to go and celebrate God’s creation and defend… It’s just interesting to see that, right. We’d rather celebrate human achievement than we would anything else that’s going on.

Daniel Markin:
Well speaking of human achievement Tesla this year released their cyber trucks, did you guys see that video?

Joshua Scott:
Oh yeah.

Isaac Dagneau:
I didn’t see the video but I just looked at a picture of the truck. It looks crazy, it looks like a box.

Daniel Markin:
It looks like, do you remember a Pokémon? There’s a Pokémon called polygon or something like that. That’s what the truck looked like to me. It’s just there was no rounded edges, just pointy.

Joshua Scott:
Yeah, it is the future you’re looking at.

Daniel Markin:
It is the future and the more I look at it the more I kind of liked the design, but also the thing that’s funny about it is you’re well an electric truck, what can that do? I want a Ford truck, I want the Dodge-
The Ram-
Yeah, the Ram, Dodge Ram. But you’re like that must be the toughest truck, then you read the thing the Tesla truck can tow double what the F-150 can do, of that same range and model, like what? This got double the power of that. So whatever they’re doing at Tesla is remarkable.

Joshua Scott:
It’s pretty cool.

Isaac Dagneau:
Pretty cool.

Joshua Scott:
It really displays the, we come to the image of God, you think about Genesis one, how He creates mankind in His own image, and one of the ways that we profoundly display His image is in our ability for rational thinking, and you just see, you look at something like that, and simply humanity wants to say human achievement, redeemed Christian thought is, “Wow, look at how God has designed humanity to come to this level of brilliance of being able to design something that can double the towing of a Dodge.” That’s pretty incredible, and it’s just going to get more and more and more. And it just, rather than simply celebrating and displaying the brilliance of one man, Elon Musk, I think actually, as a Christian, we look and say, “Wow, it’s pretty cool, what God has enabled us to think about and to do and design and create,” pretty cool.

Isaac Dagneau:
Yeah, yeah. And we are just to think of it probably just we are right in the middle of just ridiculous technological innovation advancement, it’s just insane from the last while, it just boggles people’s… I mean, again, go back 100 years ago, if you would have told people what was coming in the 21st century they would have laughed, so it’s crazy. So we have to be prepared for it I think biblically to and with the right worldview.
I mean, I just saw recently, I didn’t actually watch it, but I just saw the Gospel Coalition put out a video on how do we deal with AI coming up? Because that’s a serious thing that we need to start taking seriously, but even-

Daniel Markin:
AI being artificial intelligence?

Isaac Dagneau:
Artificial intelligence, yeah. And there’s that movie that came out a few years ago, Her, with Joaquin Phoenix, and it kind of it was like this pioneer may be in the mainstream of here’s a guy that was having a real relationship with an AI and kind of put in a light of a good light. And it was really interesting, like, Oh, wow. So anyways, there’s a lot to think about when it comes to the Christian worldview, when it comes to just technological advancement, but Cybertruck, cool.

Daniel Markin:
Well, another thing that happened in 2019 that was actually really devastating, it actually really affected me a lot too in the Christian world was the Pastor Jarrid Wilson who died by suicide. And that was a few months ago, and he was a pastor, young adults pastor in California. I’m curious to think what you guys thought about this whole situation, how you felt about it, because it really impacted me. Here’s a young guy, a young pastor, who has a beautiful family, right? And a loving wife and everything that you see online is that things are going well, and he had been a real outspoken person for anxiety and for depression and mental health. And then I guess it just became too much, and he died by suicide.
So it really impacted me, because I’m like, man, here’s a guy in a very similar walk of life, and at this time I’m looking at getting married and I’m engaged when this happened, and just aiming towards it, it was just like, it was so heavy, how did you guys deal with this?

Isaac Dagneau:
Well, I think it’s certainly just to comment again on what happened. If we heard of some young father and husband who committed suicide, it’s sad and it’s a reality and we see that happen, but I think it’s the fact that he was a pastor, and quite a well-known pastor, he’s author as well, and at big Calvary Chapel Greg Laurie’s church, I think, Harvest.

Daniel Markin:
Harvest Bible Chapel, I think.

Isaac Dagneau:
Yeah, so it was quite a well-known church, so he was quite in the limelight so everyone saw him so I think that’s where the shock come so when I see that it’s… We have this idea where that can’t happen to pastors, that can’t happen to pastors, it can happen to Christians but not pastors. So, I think that’s where the shock comes and you see videos of him like throwing his kids up in the air and a couple weeks before or whatever, the same year, and is like how? How? So, it definitely comes as a shock because of who he was, his position.

Joshua Scott:
Yeah. I heard comments, and it is unfortunate that at the moment that it happens, you have these two camps that rise up and people who are just very sad and rejoicing in some sense that he’s now in heaven, right? He’s with his heavenly Father, but then you have other people who immediately want to say, “Well, no, no, no. Suicide is a sin, and it’s a final rebuke against God. It’s saying, I’m in control.” And so, all of a sudden there’s this battle, I just think it’s something like that. No matter who passes away, whether pastor, Christian, non-Christian, no matter who, a suicide is a sad thing, it’s a desperately sad thing.
So theologically I don’t know if we have any means to come, we can’t, to go and say, well, that’s the final act of disobedience to God or absolute assurance that he’s in heaven, and I don’t know him, so I can’t come to that conclusion. But what a story like that ought to do is: A, what you’re talking about pastors right? To have a care and compassion for pastors. I think it’s quite misunderstood just how much pastors go through in the counselling and in the inner turmoil, the longing they have for their people in the frustration they have with themselves and their own sin and thinking, “Well, I have to lead the flock of God, right?” Pray for your pastors, care for your pastors.

Daniel Markin:
Send your pastor a text or an email, encourage them.

Joshua Scott:
I think that’s so important. And maybe that can be a really important thing to draw from a story like this. Pastors need friends and they need care and love just like any other human being needs.

Isaac Dagneau:
That’s good.

Daniel Markin:
Another thing that happened this year that was quite amusing was the Area 51 storming. Do you remember that?

Joshua Scott:
Did that happen?

Daniel Markin:
Well, it almost happened, didn’t it? But for a long time, this whole thing started with a Facebook event that just went viral and had thousands of people who were signed up to go. And that the idea was they’re all going to show up and storm Area 51, because they wanted to see what was inside, right? The government’s hiding who knows what-

Joshua Scott:
Extraterrestrials.

Daniel Markin:
… aliens or ET and RTD2. We got to get in there and figure out what’s inside there. The classic meme was I think the subtitle of it was storming Area 51, and in brackets, they can’t stop us all, right? But it actually drew a lot of attention to the point where I think the National Guard, the US Department of Defense basically said, we will use force to defend this military base. And so, you think well, who’s dumb enough to actually attack a military base? But people, it actually got to the point where people got kind of concerned about this, people actually camped outside, and Josh you had told me that one guy actually got arrested. Why did he get arrested?

Joshua Scott:
He took a leak by the fence there.

Daniel Markin:
Yeah.

Joshua Scott:
To jail you go. Yeah.

Isaac Dagneau:
I heard that they were supposed to do the Naruto run.

Joshua Scott:
Naruto.

Isaac Dagneau:
Naruto?

Joshua Scott:
Yeah.

Isaac Dagneau:
Okay, I don’t know.

Daniel Markin:
It just basically became a hotbed for all sorts of memes and all sorts of, it was quite amusing. But it’s an interesting, it kind of, man’s curious.

Isaac Dagneau:
Yeah, and you know what it also shows there’s a lack of reverence for authority. And people just joke about it now, and I think the internet has really helped as people… I’m not saying this is a good thing, it just kind of has brought off the… People are encouraged now just to be like, yeah, we can joke about the President, look at I mean, just crazy to even see people just how, crass they can be publicly in front of many people over someone in such an authority place as the President, and it just shows our culture, when Trump got in, ‘Not My President’ was the big thing. It’s like, wow, it just goes to show like we’re going to storm Area 51, whatever, I don’t care about authority.

Daniel Markin:
We’re our own authority.

Isaac Dagneau:
We’re our own authority, right? Which is just crazy.

Daniel Markin:
Totally, and that’s a very a cultural thing that we see a lot too, is We want all the freedom but no responsibility.

Isaac Dagneau:
Silly.

Joshua Scott:
Yeah, Interesting.

Isaac Dagneau:
And sad.

Joshua Scott:
Very Silly.

Daniel Markin:
Okay, one last silly and sad thing as we are closing our time here.

Joshua Scott:
Silly and sad.

Daniel Markin:
There was an Instagram account that popped up and raised a lot of questions regarding how we are to spend our money. There was an account that came up, called PreachersNSneakers, and it basically started from a guy who basically he call himself a sneaker geek, so he liked shoes and things. And what he started to notice was that all of these famous celebrity pastors, he would look at photos of them and they’re wearing very expensive clothing, very expensive shoes. And so he began posting about it, because it clearly bothered him.
And he created an account called PreachersNSneakers, and he would have a photo of this particular person, and then the value of the shoes that they’re wearing, the shoe with the price tag and what it’s currently going for in the sneaker market, or the value of this person’s, their track pants or something, and it raised a lot of questions about this sort of thing, and yet, these guys are still wearing all this clothing. “There’s new photos that keep popping up of them doing the same thing. What do you guys think about this?

Isaac Dagneau:
I think if there wasn’t something inside of, because I think a lot of the criticism comes from Christians, and I think non-Christians too, obviously. But okay, let’s just think generally from non-Christians and Christians, there’s something perceived in us that looks on pastors, and something tells us they shouldn’t be doing that. So there’s something innate already that says they shouldn’t look like the stars and the celebrities or the basketball players, which is really interesting that that’s the first thing that they get angry at that, because there’s this perceived notion where pastors should be lowly and humble and they see that lowly and humbleness of heart externalized in what people wear. And I get that, I mean, when I look at that I can feel judgmental, because I’m like, what are you doing? That cost you 1500 dollars for a belt, like what are you doing?”
But then there’s also the argument and I know people who are into fashion, but I come back just to Jesus and His disciples, His little ragtag guys and Jesus says, “I have no place to lay My head, foxes have holes, bird’s nest… I have no place to lay my head.” And there is this humbleness and meekness that Jesus has that displays itself in real life. And yet Paul says at the end of Philippians, I’ve learned the secret of having much, and also having nothing, and that is I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. So, I don’t know, when I look at PreachersNSneakers, it’s hard again, it comes back to the Kanye West thing, are these pastors doing this for their own ego, for their own pride? Because it feels good to wear really nice clothes? Or are they doing it fully in a good heart?
But then you get to come back to what, again what Paul says at the beginning of Philippians, says, “Some people preach Christ out of conceit,” but praise God, the gospel’s being preached. So, there’s just a lot there, sorry, I have some thoughts here, but anyways, what do you think?

Joshua Scott:
That’s really, really good. Yeah, I agree, I think it’s something really significant that when we look at a pastor, we have this expectation that they ought to be lowly and not proud of what they’re wearing or show themselves to be something that maybe they’re not, like a superstar. Because a pastor is not a superstar. A pastor is a shepherd, who’s in the mud with the sheep, taking care of the people and their souls, right? It’s Hebrews 13, “They take watch over your soul.” And so, I think it’s something important that something tweaks in us, because we do know biblically that the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. Now, just because somebody wears expensive sneakers doesn’t mean that they love money, but for somebody to have something really expensive to own a really beautiful home or have a really, really nice car, there’s something in us that wonders.
So I think there’s just a danger for these pastors’ ministry. I don’t know all of these pastors. I sure hope, like what you say as long as the gospel is being preached, we rejoice. I hope they’re preaching the gospel –

Isaac Dagneau:
Right, exactly.

Joshua Scott:
Because what can tend to come out of places like that is a prosperity gospel. I have all this because God has so blessed me, right? And this is what it is to be a follower of Jesus, God will bless you and bless you, bless you, bless you with all the wealth that you could want, but that’s not true. Yeah, spiritual wealth, right? All the heavenly blessings, but material wealth is no guarantee for the Christian.

Daniel Markin:
So here’s the question, follow up and a little bit devil’s advocate. Is it wrong for pastors to have nice things?

Joshua Scott:
No, absolutely not.

Daniel Markin:
Why?

Joshua Scott:
Well, because to have a nice thing is simply to enjoy all things that God has given us, right? To go and have every now and then Chelan and I go on a date night to the Keg, that’s a fairly expensive restaurant. We’ll enjoy a nice steak, we’ll share it together and that’s something special –

Isaac Dagneau:
Every Friday?

Joshua Scott:
Not quite every Friday, every now and then. To enjoy nice things is to enjoy the creation that God has given us.

Isaac Dagneau:
Right.

Joshua Scott:
Right? And humanity’s ability to explore and create new things that are even nicer, nicer. I think it can be a very celebratory thing, and a God-honouring thing, however, to put that in the place of anything else, right? That this is the very first commandment, you should have no other gods before Me, right? No idols. So there can be a temptation when we enjoy the finer things of life to begin to make that life, my life is about the final things not my life is about Jesus Christ, and I enjoy His creation.
I think even particularly for pastors, this is something that I’ve thought about a lot. This is just a personal comment, I don’t know how much backup I have for this. But my thought is I love music, I love music very, very much. So, I said to my wife the other day, I’m so looking forward to the new earth, because I think I’ll be playing a lot of music.

Daniel Markin:
You’ll be playing a lot of Kids Bop.

Joshua Scott:
That’s right. And so, I can give my life completely to the ministry that I know that God has called me to, even though I have this love and desire for music and put music on the side, because I know that right now is the time of labour. This is the time when I want to preach the gospel to people that they might know Jesus Christ, so that on that New Earth, in the New Heaven, there might be more people, right? That God has rescued to His own glory. And then I’ll be able to enjoy all these things.
To think that the finer things of life won’t be there, I don’t think that’s right, I think the finer things – awesome fashion, cool sneakers all these different things, I think they’re going to be there.

Daniel Markin:
Good food.

Joshua Scott:
Yeah, good food, but we’ll enjoy them to the glory of God, right now, particularly for pastors, who have been called to the ministry now is the time to labour, right? To say to live as Christ, which is how did Christ live? Exactly what you said right? He lived in poverty. I’m going to live as Christ giving up everything I have for the sake of the gospel, count everything else as rubbish compared to knowing Jesus Christ. If so, when I’m in heaven and I still want to do these things, enjoy these things. And God is pleased to let that happen and I’ll do it to His glory then it’s going to happen. I’ll enjoy that, but right now.

Isaac Dagneau:
And there’s something to say too, a pastor who wants to reach Beverly Hills, they might have this idea they might read Paul saying to the Jew to become Jew, Gentile become Gentile. So, I’ll look like them, I’ll dress like them to win them. And I suppose that can happen at the same time, how radical it would be for someone, it’s not like the world at all, to come in and start preaching the gospel. I mean, that’s kind of like what Jesus was, I mean He wasn’t anything special. We don’t hear any comments about His physique or what He wore or anything, it was just Jesus, and He came in and people were like, wow.
He came out of Nazareth, what good comes out of Nazareth? So, there was definitely this attraction to him because He wasn’t like everyone else. And I think that’s cool, I think we can win the World not by trying to look like them and dress like them. We can win them by looking so different than them.

Daniel Markin:
When I think about the whole PreachersNSneakers thing, I think under two headings. One, I wonder about and maybe it depends on context, but when a pastor, obviously their life is always being watched, right? Because they’re a leader. And so that’s just part of the role, it’s part of the calls is your life is going to be closely watched. So, watch your life and doctrine closely, as Paul tells Timothy.
And so part of that might be your lifestyle. So, if you’re displaying things of luxury and opulence on stage, those things in itself aren’t wrong, god gives us good things, things to enjoy, right? And that’s part of living in creation and enjoying the fruits of creation. That’s not a bad thing, but I do wonder about if you’re on stage, and you’re displaying that, in your congregation, there’d be a lot of people who don’t necessarily display that. I think we have to be careful in how we’re viewed so as to not distract people from the gospel.
The second thing I’d say though is, we don’t know who these guys are. A lot of them have talked about getting, they have been given, they minister to celebrities, and these guys they give me Louis Vuitton stuff, right? And it’s kind of like a way of showing that you appreciate that, you want to wear the nice things. Was it maybe poor timing to wear it on stage? Church? Maybe. I think we can all learn and grow in areas like that, but the one thing I think about is, some people have nicer things, because they steward their money better than other people.

Isaac Dagneau:
True.

Daniel Markin:
I remember this in college, right? You’d be like, “Hey, man, do you want to go out and see a movie Friday night?” I got no money. People always have no money, no money, and you’re thinking, I know you have money, but you just steward it badly.

Isaac Dagneau:
And I think last point, I think a responsibility for pastors who genuinely enjoy fashion as a hobby-

Daniel Markin:
As an Art.

Isaac Dagneau:
As an art whatever, yeah, they enjoy it. I think we have to know that because they do that and they love that, it’s a very public thing, so they have a responsibility to make sure let’s say their viewers and their congregation, their flock, that they know that, I think. So, I think that’d be good. I think one pastor in the States, I think is kind of well-known that he genuinely enjoys fashion, it’s something he loves to do and it’s known, so it’s not just like this ambiguous thing, it’s like okay the reason why you wear this clothing is because you really do, you do enjoy that. I just think that you have responsibility then to talk about, because there’s other pastors who wear normal clothes, but then if you saw their disc golf collection it’s like thousands of dollars.

Daniel Markin:
Oh yeah. Or if you saw their golf clubs, you’re like –

Isaac Dagneau:
Yeah, but no one sees that, and they’re like well, it must be a humble meek pastor. It’s like well, no, they spent the same amount of money, but it’s just on something different. Yeah.

Daniel Markin:
Yeah, and I enjoy fashion, but I also look at them, and like I know you can accomplish those looks for dramatically less money.

Isaac Dagneau:
Yeah, totally.

Daniel Markin:
So again, I don’t have the answer to it, I think you just need to be careful.
Well fellas, this has been a great show. 2019, can’t I believe it’s over.

Joshua Scott:
Yeah. Wow.

Daniel Markin:
And listen, we just want to wish all of our listeners a Happy New Year, and I’ll see both your faces in the coming New Year.

Kourtney Cromwell:
It’s such a good time to reflect on the year and I’m glad that we had the opportunity with the guys to go through 2019 – celebrating, commenting, and allowing space, for all that’s happened in the year. As we move into 2020, we do have a great lineup of new episodes coming up, including best-selling author and pastor, David Platt, and we’re welcoming back Tony Reinke, our guest from Episode 203. Next week, we’re joined by Jon Tyson, who’s an author and pastor in New York, and Daniel and John discuss the opportunities that single people have. So Happy New Year, and I hope that you join us in 2020.

Kourtney Cromwell:
Thanks so much for listening, if you want to hear more, subscribe on iTunes and Spotify or visit us online at indoubt.ca or indoubt.com. We’re also on social media, so make sure to follow us on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter.