Ep. 22: DANGERS WITH THE ENNEAGRAM w/ Dr. Chris Berg

Andrew Marcus:

Hey, this is Andrew Marcus. Thanks for tuning into THE INDOUBT SHOW. We got a fantastic show today and a fantastic few weeks ahead. We’re going to be going through a new series. This is the start to a series we’re doing called Spiritual Things.

Now we are in a time in culture where we are just diving into some spiritual things, and some of it is a little bit weird and a little bit dangerous, and so we want to walk through the dangers. And so we have Dr. Chris Berg, fantastic guy. He has a book on the Enneagram and yoga, and he’s going to be diving through the Enneagram, some of the dangers, the origin, where it came from, some things to maybe be weary of. And so I know this is going to be a little bit challenging to hear for some of us.

I know a lot of people specifically in the church are getting very excited and passionate about the Enneagram and we have some red flags and some warnings. And so I think you’re going to really enjoy this episode. It’s very informational. We hope it encourages you, it blesses you, it teaches you. I know it has for me. And we pray that this blesses you a lot. So God bless you. Enjoy the show.

All right, well, we have Dr. Chris Berg all the way in North Carolina. Thank you so much for tuning in, man. How are you today?

Dr. Chris Berg:

I’m doing great. It’s so good to finally meet you face to face and-

Andrew Marcus:

Oh man, I’m pumped.

Dr. Chris Berg:

Yeah, it’s great. I’m looking forward to diving into this topic with you today.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah, it’s going to be so great. So Dr. Chris Berg, PhD, Professor of Apologetics and Theology at Ecclesia College. Founder and lead apologist of Spirit of Truth Outreach, and founding pastor of Spirit of Truth Church, which is a house church, which I can’t wait, when I’m in North Carolina, I’m coming over to your house and we’ll have a great time. But we kind of just said this right before the red light came on, but I just feel like we’re going to ruffle a lot of feathers, and I’m probably going to lose a lot of friends. What has been the journey like for you? Because maybe we could still be friends.

Dr. Chris Berg:

I hope so. This all started for me, goodness, it’s funny because every time a year ticks by, I have to remember to click forward a year in my timestamps. I think it was five years ago is when this first started for me, and I first heard about the Enneagram just presented as a personality test, and I was in my PhD program at the time, and I didn’t really think too much of it, but then I started hearing more and more about it. I saw books being published about it, and I decided to investigate it. And low and behold, I was in my PhD bubble, this thing had taken over so much of the church at that point in America, people were adopting it left, right, and center, and no one was really asking the question, there was a few people, but not many were asking the question, is this really something the church should even be engaging in? And so I thought, hey, great opportunity for a doctoral dissertation. Let’s find out. We have a question.

Andrew Marcus:

Amazing.

Dr. Chris Berg:

Yeah, we want an answer. And so I basically did a study of the new age movement and generated a nice set of questions essentially you could ask. 60 different theological points to discern whether something is indeed a new age technique or whether it is a Christian technique or ritual, or whatever it is that you’re wanting to study. And so I did my dissertation on the Enneagram and yoga and the new age movement, and started presenting on this at various churches. And we just actually had a church that was essentially being infiltrated by the Enneagram, and through this information, they shut the doors on it. So we’ve had some successes in this area as well.

Andrew Marcus:

Wow. So it’s not just losing friends, we’re also going to make a difference.

Dr. Chris Berg:

Oh yeah. And I’ve lost, like I said, nearly 70% of my speaking engagements because of this. So it is a very intense topic, a very intense-

Andrew Marcus:

Have people gotten pretty upset at you?

Dr. Chris Berg:

I get two main responses when I tell them about this. They either are shocked because they’d seen or heard or interacted with the Enneagram, but did not know what this thing was about. Or, and I mean it when I say the word, rage.

Andrew Marcus:

Wow.

Dr. Chris Berg:

Because what you’re essentially doing is touching on what they have come to accept as their identity and their way of relating to God. Literally, it is a rage. The anger that comes off of people because of these things being challenged is very immense. And it’s really one of those two extremes, is the majority reaction that I get.

Andrew Marcus:

Wow. Shocking. Okay. And then you released a book in 2021, I believe it was, The New Age Trojan Horse, what Christians Should Know About Yoga and the Enneagram. And I think we’re going to have another episode with you about yoga specifically, because I’d love to dive into all things yoga, but today we’re going to dive into all things Enneagram. And the Enneagram, it’s true, has infiltrated into not only the American church, but we’re seeing it a lot in Canada. And so let’s start by even just unpacking what is the Enneagram, because when I first heard of it, and I’ve seen a lot of people talk about it in my circles, just a simple personality test.

Dr. Chris Berg:

Ah. Well, it’s funny that you mention that, it’s a simple personality test, because actually the key Enneagram teachers, Christopher Heuertz included, states right in his book, it’s often mis-caricaturized as a personality test. In other words, that’s not what it is at all, but that’s how people present it. And that right there should send up some red flags.

So what is the actual definition of the Enneagram? And again, I like to go to the source. Christopher Heuertz is one of the three main Christian Enneagram speakers, or three or four. And he says this, the contemporary Enneagram of personality, quote, “Illustrates,” I’m going to read this slowly, “Illustrates the nine ways we get lost, but also the nine ways we can come home to our true self. Put another way, it exposes the nine ways we lie to ourselves about who we think we are, the nine ways we can come clean about those illusions, and the nine ways we can find our way back to God.”

Now again, red flag should be popping up all over that definition. I’m just going to make three key points here. First point, it’s not sin that separates us from God. It’s not mortal failure and rebellion that separates us from God. According to the Enneagram, the Christian version, by the way. Rather, there are nine ways, nine different ways we get separated from God. That’s interesting. It’s not that we come home to Jesus, come back, be reconciled to God. No, no, no. We come home to our true self. Which when you dig a bit deeper, you realize that the Enneagram preaches panentheism, that you are literally God incarnate, just like Jesus. And so coming home to your true self is coming home to divinity.

And finally, it’s not salvation by grace, there are nine ways, not the blood of Christ. In the Enneagram, the blood of Christ does not reconcile you to God. No, there are nine ways you find your own way back to God.

Andrew Marcus:

Can you give us some examples of these nines? What would they say? What would be a way that separates us? What would be a way back?

Dr. Chris Berg:

Sure. Yeah. Well, we’ll hit that. So what do you actually do when you do the Enneagram? This is probably kind of what you’re getting at, right?

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah.

Dr. Chris Berg:

So you would take this test, this Enneagram test, and it would give you one of nine, I’ll say it, personality types. And this is the way you’ve been lying to yourself. These are your false selves. So Enneagram personality is actually a negative thing. And most people don’t realize that when they’re getting into it, that it’s actually not a good thing.

This is your false self, it’s how you’ve been hiding, it’s how you’ve been lying to yourself. And so what you have to do is you have to engage in things like contemplative prayer or meditation, or the work of the Enneagram, which is essentially using the Enneagram symbol to connect to the different personality types and learn what you need in order to recognize the truth that you are divine on the inside, that’s your true self. So there’s a number of different things.

There’s Enneagram advice books that you would have to follow as well. So there’s a lot of behavioral pieces to this and a lot of ritualistic and mystic pieces to this that all come together to, quote, “Help make you the true self, help you discover your true self.” So that’s how it’s done.

And all of these Enneagram teachers, by the way, Heuertz, Cron and Richard Rohr, they all really don’t like the atonement, and it’s very evident in their books. They do not like the atonement of Christ. They do not like the blood sacrifice of Christ’s death for our sins, perpetuating the wrath of God.

Andrew Marcus:

Do they actually say that?

Dr. Chris Berg:

Oh yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

Really?

Dr. Chris Berg:

Oh yeah. Heuertz’s book, yeah, he gets on it. He gets on it. Rohr gets on it. They do not like the atonement. They do not like the atonement. Rohr specifically is going to again argue for Christ’s consciousness. He’s going to argue for Panentheism. He’s going to say that the atonement is not really an important thing, all of this kind of stuff, because he’s fully new age in his thinking. And here it’s trained directly by him, basically incorporates most of that into his book as well. Yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

Wow.

Dr. Chris Berg:

And they call it the Christian Enneagram, but it is not Christian in any way, shape or form.

Andrew Marcus:

So is there religious origins with it?

Dr. Chris Berg:

So I actually argue when we define the Enneagram, that the Enneagram is a religion. I actually say that it is a religion. When you follow the Enneagram, you are following a religion, and here’s why. When the Enneagram is being developed, the new age movement took a lot of the theology from the Enneagram into it. So some new age stuff is actually based on the Enneagram.

Additionally, it answers all four worldview questions. All four religious worldview questions are answered by the Enneagram. It says that our origin is that we are God incarnated into bodies. In other words, we have God’s divine being within us. We are God. It says that our problem, much like Buddhism, oddly enough, is lack of knowledge or ignorance. We are ignorant about our true self. We’ve bought into a lie of our false self.

It says our solution is inner work. In other words, all those things I listed earlier, which lead to sanctification, and it says that our end is deification, we recognize that we’re God. So it is a full-blown religion. There’s no question about it. And there’s the ritualistic part, which some people can say, “Oh, I could just take the ritual.” But the problem is, if you’re taking the ritual, you’re buying into a false method of sanctification. In just doing that advice, you’ve bought into a false method of sanctification. And that’s going to have an impact on your perception of your salvation and your relationship to Jesus Christ.

Andrew Marcus:

Wow. The Enneagram, when was it formed?

Dr. Chris Berg:

So yeah, if we want to get into history, and this unfortunately is a bit tangled because there’s a lot of lies out there, on purpose. There’s a lot of purposeful lies out there and propagation of these lies. So the big claim is that the Enneagram is ancient. It dates back to the Desert Fathers in Christianity. It dates back to Evagrius and Ramon Llull. Problem is it’s all a lie. The people who said it admitted they were lying about it just to get famous. So now people just repeat it. They’re like parrots. They just repeat that. But it’s fundamentally a lie. The Enneagram was created by George Gurdjieff, a Russian occultist. That’s the creator. But he didn’t actually think it was about personality. He said, “No, this is actually a picture of cosmic reality. You can see the universe in this symbol.”

Oh, and by the way, there’s a guy named Ouspensky, and he actually wrote about Gurdjieff’s ideas. And that is what became the basis of a lot of new age movement theology. Now, it wasn’t until another occultist, Oscar Ichazo in Chile in 1968 added his ideas to the Enneagram. And this is where we start to get the ball rolling into what we have in the modern day.

So he still didn’t use it for personality typing, but he channeled the spirit Metatron and Qutub, and that’s where he got his information. So he was engaging in demonic possession and demonic channeling for divine knowledge that he then put into the Enneagram. One of his related students, Claudio Naranjo, was a new age psychiatrist and spiritualist and occultist, and he used the process of automatic writing to get and come up with the personality types.

So what’s automatic writing? Divination. It is the channeling of the spirit into your body so that the spirit takes control of your hand and begins to write things. And he claims that all of the personality aspects of this were given through automatic writing through the chanelling of a demon. So the problem is, is at base, even if people want to say that it’s worth it or it’s good, we would literally be basing our personalities and what our personalities are off of the teachings of demons. And that’s just at ground, that’s just at ground. That’s what it is.

And you’d think, well, how could this get into Christianity? Well, we’ll get there. It’s very, very sneaky, but it makes a lot of sense. So essentially what you have is the Enneagram then is taken from them. It’s put into a think tank. And from there, new agers in the Catholic church, not saying the Catholic church is new age, but there were new agers in the Catholic church, new age priests in the Catholic church, who took the Enneagram into Catholicism. And at this point that would be Bob Ochs.

Andrew Marcus:

And when was that? When did that happen?

Dr. Chris Berg:

This is going to be around the eighties when this is going to be getting pretty big, I think around the eighties. Again, these guys are kind of teaching and doing stuff over a period of time. All the way into the nineties as well. But Bob Ochs is going to get it, and then Richard Rohr gets his hands on it, and he then writes the Christian Enneagram book, which is the staple book, and he becomes the teacher of virtually all of the major Christian Enneagram people.

But in the Catholic church, a guy named Mitch Pacwa wrote a book against it, and he tried to fight back against the Catholic church. Eventually, Richard Rohr is going to transition though over to the emergent and progressive Christian movements. They’re very experiential. They’re very much into contemplative prayer. And the Enneagram fit right in.

So then you have it expand into Protestant Christianity, still emergent progressive, not mainstream, until what main event happens? Zondervan and InterVarsity Press published The Road Back To You and The Sacred Enneagram, giving the Enneagram a stamp of approval for all Christians, Protestant Christians throughout the country. And with that, it now becomes a multi-million dollar business. And the Enneagram goes forth everywhere because you’ve got InterVarsity and Zondervan promoting it. And so then boom, it gets in.

Now there is more, as you’d like me to share how it became popular, would you like me to hit into that at all?

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah, let’s do it. Let’s do it. I want to talk all things, man. This is awesome.

Dr. Chris Berg:

Well, here’s how it’s sold to Christians. It’s going to help your marriage. It’s going to help all your relationships. It’s going to help you grow closer to God. It’s going to help you overcome your sin problems. It’ll help you finally understand who you are and why you behave the way you do. Wouldn’t you want to do it? I mean, man, this thing sounds like it solves all my problems.

Andrew Marcus:

Sounds like an infomercial right now.

Dr. Chris Berg:

It does. And that is the Enneagram. That’s how it’s pitched. And why are people buying into it? Well, the fact that we have so many Christians who are dealing with identity issues and dealing with connection to God and dealing with all this stuff, where did that come from? Well, we have a loss of doctrine. We have a loss of Bible literacy. So when the non-denominational churches began to really explode and independent churches began to explode, one of their key tenets was they were going to walk away from the structure, the rigid liturgical structures, and the fights over doctrine. And so a lot of them have very, very, very basic doctrinal statements. They don’t teach theology. And the survey of 17 large churches in North Carolina, only three of them used the Bible.

Andrew Marcus:

That’s not true.

Dr. Chris Berg:

Oh no, I went to 17 churches, 17 of larger churches in this area, and on a sermon on Sunday, and only three of them, I’ll say it like this, three of them preach expository sermons.

Andrew Marcus:

Okay.

Dr. Chris Berg:

The rest gave a verse and then talked about whatever they wanted to talk about. It had nothing to do with the verse at all. And it was just a feel good self-help message. That’s of 17 churches, only three of them were preaching out of the Bible.

Andrew Marcus:

Now, I knew that the number would be low, but I didn’t know it would be only three.

Dr. Chris Berg:

Oh, I was shocked.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah, that’s shocking.

Dr. Chris Berg:

I was shocked. I didn’t go to all churches, I just went to 17. Three out of 17. That’s a sample, right? But again, we’re seeing a decline of evangelicalism. We’re seeing a decline of the evangelical mind. We’re seeing a reforming of discipleship where it’s no longer about the Great Commission. Teach them what I have said, what Jesus has said, and teach them to obey. It’s now about tithe, serve, and that’s kind of it. And now you’re being discipled. It’s like, well, no, there’s no instruction there at all. And so what we’ve seen is we’ve seen just a complete lack of theology, which means people are now having to make a choice. Do I go to a Bible, which they can’t understand, to find my answers? Or do they go to the easy candy on the side of the street? They’re going to the candy.

The other big issue is a twofold issue, and it is the replacement of scripture as the test for truth. Scripture is no longer a test for truth in this country. It is pragmatism and expediency, let me define those. Pragmatism is something is Godly and of God if it produces a good result. The Enneagram must be of God, because look, it’s got the name Christian, and it produces good results. It’s got to be of God.

Expediency is the idea that even if something’s bad or has a bad origin, if it produces a good result, the ends justify the means. And that’s how people determine truth now. And I’ve been to seminaries, oh, this is going to shock you. I’ve been to seminaries, I’ve asked graduate students, they’ve confessed, “I’m a pragmatist.”

Andrew Marcus:

Wow.

Dr. Chris Berg:

I have had one of the largest churches in America, when talking with their pastor, deny the sufficiency of scripture openly and say, “We do not believe in that doctrine, nor do we teach that doctrine at our church.”

Andrew Marcus:

Wow.

Dr. Chris Berg:

We’re talking this is a church of tens of thousands of people. You got to understand, we have had a wholesale breakdown in Christianity at this point in our larger churches. And you have an entire generation with all of the questions. And they refuse to go to the Bible, they’ll go anywhere else. And the Enneagram feels good. Why? It’s just like astrology, just like numerology, just like horoscopes. And you’ve got big churches and pastors and publishers saying it’s good, and what can we do about it? This, what we’re doing right here, trying to alert people. Because we essentially let the 18 year old mentality dictate the terms of the church in this idea of secret, friendly, open to all, no doctrine, no teaching. And it’s left us in a relativistic morass of heresy.

Andrew Marcus:

That’s a lot to take in, man.

Dr. Chris Berg:

Yeah. Can you believe it? Oh, it’s been a fun run on this.

Andrew Marcus:

So tell me, with all the responses you get from people, what would you say is the balance between people who are raging and people who are shocked?

Dr. Chris Berg:

50/50.

Andrew Marcus:

Oh, really? Only. Okay.

Dr. Chris Berg:

It’s about 50/50. I was happily surprised by people who were shocked. I was thinking it was going to be almost all rage, and it was about 50/50. Again, I lost about 70% of my speaking engagements, because that’s institutions. And they’d bought in as an institution. Individuals were about 50/50 on it. And I think that’s just going to depend on your area and the circles you run in. If it’s already ingrained in people, watch out for more of the rage. If it’s people dabbling with it, you might get more of just the shock. And I’ve had the opportunity to lead multiple churches and multiple individuals away from the Enneagram through this research. So it’s actually been very fruitful. And I could share with some of the testimonies, man, some of them are frightening.

Andrew Marcus:

Wow.

Dr. Chris Berg:

Absolutely frightening testimonies. Yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

Share with us a frightening testimony.

Dr. Chris Berg:

So I kind of hit on this with the dangers. It kind of goes along with this. One friend of mine got into the Enneagram, and she said literally she’d been in and after two years was very unhappy, hyper obsessed with her behavior, hyper obsessed with everyone else. And she said, “I didn’t even realize it, but I was gone. I was so far away from Jesus and scripture. It shocked me when I heard your talk,” because I had a conversation with another lady who was going to talk to her about it. And she said when she had that talk and she saw the video, she said, “It was dawning on me, I am nowhere near Jesus,” in this Christian Enneagram. “I’m nowhere near the Bible. I’m nowhere near salvation.” It had led her so far astray. The Christian version, so far astray.

Another one, I mean, you’re talking about depression, you’re talking about hypersensitivity, you’re talking about anxiety because of the extreme self-focus that it puts on you and the hyper extreme amount of legalistic ways of getting closer to God. It’s like you’re on a rollercoaster, essentially. But yeah, I’ve had people, and just look at some of the videos. I mean, the comments, “Yeah, this thing led me away from Jesus. I’m so glad I’m done with it. My church went wholesale into this and it’s ruined the church.” You name it. I mean, some of these stories just get very intense. And then there’s the demonic aspect to it, which is some people do report very much a demonic presence that they have to deal with as a result of engaging, because it’s an occultic tool.

Andrew Marcus:

And people don’t realize that it’s an occultic tool.

Dr. Chris Berg:

No. Well, here’s the kicker. Some do. Some accept it. They accept its origins as occultic, and they say, “We’ve redeemed it for Christ. There’s nothing wrong with it.” So some accept its occultic origins. I’ve had people say that, “We will use anything from any religion,” pastors of huge churches. “We will use anything from any religion or anything in the world because the Bible is simply not sufficient. We need this secular and even occultic stuff. We can redeem it as Christian and use it.” And those are the kinds of comments that I get when I talk to these churches that engage in it.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah. There’s a big church across the border here in Seattle who they push this hard, man.

Dr. Chris Berg:

Oh, yeah. Well, there’s whole churches that do sermons. That’s all they do, is Enneagram sermons now.

Andrew Marcus:

Oh yeah. There’s a church in Canada that I’m aware of, friend used to go there, and they did a full series, like a 10, 12 week series on just unpacking all of this.

Dr. Chris Berg:

Again, we’re talking about the biggest churches in the country here in America too. All their pastors are trained in it, and it’s their method, and they’re incorporating it now. Like the church I talked to last week, they wanted to incorporate it in their membership class. In other words, if you’re going to be a member here, you go through the Enneagram. Oh yeah. It’s part of their discipleship. Part of their discipleship track is the use of the Enneagram. Oh yes.

Andrew Marcus:

So Myers-Briggs or whatever that other personality test is, would that be similar? Does that have similar origins, or is that totally different? Because I know people use some of these personality things for hiring staff and knowing who to hire and what your personality’s like, et cetera. Would that be sold as that?

Dr. Chris Berg:

So here’s the difference. And I actually am not a fan of any personality tests, and I highly recommend a book, it’s a secular book, believe it or not, and I’m going to get the title here real quick. I think it’s called Cult of Personality. Yeah. The Cult of Personality Testing by Annie Murphy Paul. It’s not even a Christian book. But the title, I’ll read you the subtitle. How personality tests are leading us to miseducate our children, mismanage our companies, and misunderstand ourselves.

I’m not a fan of any of them, but I’ll say this about the Enneagram, it’s a religion. Myers-Briggs is not a religion. The Enneagram is a religion. So people are going to use things like Myers-Briggs, fine. I wouldn’t, I don’t. I ascribe to some of even the secular theory saying this is not good stuff. Not that I subscribe to secular theory, but I don’t think it’s good stuff. I think that personality is something that’s fundamentally, in terms of how it’s talked about in the psychological realm, I think it’s something that’s got a lot of secular influence in how it’s defined, and I think there’s a better biblical answer. But at least with Myers-Briggs and the other ones, it’s not a full-blown religion. The problem with the Enneagram is it’s a full-blown religion, and that’s a big, big issue, because it is trying to supplant Christ at every level.

Andrew Marcus:

I mean, clearly this just all sounds quite demonic, and I know a lot of people would be angry at that, to hear that I would call this demonic.

Dr. Chris Berg:

Oh yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

But it just seems very clear that it is.

Dr. Chris Berg:

Well, it’s clear, it’s not even hidden. It’s not an attempt to hide it. The problem is people deny the sufficiency of scripture, and they’re going to say it can be redeemed. And I’ll share this, you know this verse, Second Timothy 3:16 through 17 (NIV), “All scripture is God breathed, and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.” Now, unfortunately, people just end there, but it then goes on to say, “So that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

Here’s the problem. If we’re saying that something other than scripture is needed to equip people to do their good works, and by good works, it’s bascially talking about ministry, and things of that nature, we got a serious problem. We’re going Bible plus. So that’s one verse you go to. Any of the verses that speak out against divination, any of the verses that speak out against divination. Let’s see. Let’s get a couple of these here real quick.

“It happened as we were going to a place of prayer, and a slave girl having a spirit of divination met us, who is bringing her masters much profit by fortune telling.” They’re going to go on, and that’s an ax, they’re going to go on to cast that spirit out and stop the fortune telling. Why? It’s divination. What is the Enneagram? It was received by divination. So cast it out and be done with it.

In Ephesus, where Paul goes and they burn all the books, right? Remember that story? This is my comment with the Enneagram. I’m like, guys, they were willing to chuck, and the modern day equivalent, by the way, is between $300,000 and $3 million. That’s the amount. They tanked their economy for Christ. They destroyed their economy for Christ. Because they said, “This is occultic stuff. We’re burning it all. We’re getting rid of it.”

That’s my call. My call to people is, get the occultism out of your life. You don’t need it. You just don’t need it. The Bible is richer, more full, it’s grace, and it is the Spirit living in you, not as you, but in you. It’s not you are God, it’s indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It’s just an infinitely better thing. The Enneagram is just a phony shadow of the truth, and you don’t need it. You don’t need it. You just need better preachers, and you need a better understanding of scripture. Now, that’s what you need.

Andrew Marcus:

Wow. That’s a real eye opener. I hope that the scales fall off the eyes of people who are engaging with this, and maybe-

Dr. Chris Berg:

I hope so too.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah. We’ll pray. I really, really, really appreciate your time. We will have you again to talk about yoga, because I have so many questions about that too. And your book is about the Enneagram and yoga. Are there similarities there?

Dr. Chris Berg:

There are, and there are some differences, oddly enough.

Andrew Marcus:

Okay. Okay.

Dr. Chris Berg:

There’s some similarities, but there are some differences. And in the book I get into, people have tried to Christianize yoga, and it’s funny because in very certain things, they were actually successful. Now, the problem is is that the majority is still very Hindu, and that’s the issue. And there’s no real way to separate that out. And if anything, it’s blended Hinduism and Christianity, and that’s one of the things we can talk about. But it is different. Enneagram, it’s just new age. Yoga is this weird syncretism, blending of Christianity and Hinduism. So it’s fascinating, but also very problematic, as you can probably tell.

Andrew Marcus:

I appreciate you so much. I was really, really, really looking forward to this. That was so good. It was so good. Thank you for all that you contributed to this.

Dr. Chris Berg:

Sounds good. You have a great rest of your day. See you.

Andrew Marcus:

Hey, thanks so much for joining us today. For more great content, check out The Indoubt Show on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Music, or wherever you stream your podcasts. We hope you enjoyed it today. Feel free to check out indoubt.ca. We have some great resources available to you. Have an awesome day.