Ep. 220: Justice, Church, and Cybersex Trafficking

Kourtney Cromwell:
Welcome to the indoubt Podcast where we explore the challenging topics that young adults often face. Each week we talk with guests who help answer questions of faith, life and culture, connecting them to our daily experiences and God’s word. For more info on indoubt, visit indoubt.ca or indoubt.com.

Kourtney Cromwell:

Hey everyone, thanks for joining us for this episode of indoubt. This is Kourtney and I’m so glad that you’re listening to this episode. For the last couple of weeks, we’ve been in a throwback series, so we’re focusing on some of our previous episodes from 2016 and 2017. This week is our last episode of this series and we’ll be hearing from Mark Wollenberg. He’s the National Director of Church Mobilization for the International Justice Mission in Canada. For some of you that might be an organization that you’re familiar with and for others you may not have heard of them.
IJM is the largest anti-slavery organization in the world, and they work to rescue and restore victims of sex trafficking, forced slave labour, land theft, and more, and you’ll hear Mark talk through that a little bit. With Isaac talking to Mark on this episode, the focus is on the role that the churches can, and do, play in the form of justice. In the West, it’s easy for us to attend a conference and hear about what’s going on outside of our country or even in our country, but what does it actually mean to engage with the poor and the suffering in our community and our world? Another part of the episode breaks into the discussion around cyber-sex trafficking, what it is, what it means for all of us, and how we can come alongside organizations like IJM to help end slavery. So I hope that wherever you’re listening, you enjoy this episode with Isaac and Mark Wollenberg

Isaac Dagneau:
With me today in studio is Mark Wollenberg who is IJM Canada’s National Director of Church Mobilization. IJM, if you didn’t know, is International Justice Mission, and it’s been around for quite some time now, but thanks for being here with us today Mark.

Mark Wollenberg:
Great to be with you Isaac.

Isaac Dagneau:
So work aside for a second, we’ll come back to IJM, but work aside, who are you? Who’s Mark?

Mark Wollenberg:
I was like, I think a lot of people born on the Prairies, grew up in the Heartland of the country and then moved to BC as a teenager and grew up-

Isaac Dagneau:
By choice?

Mark Wollenberg:
Yeah, you want to move that way?

Isaac Dagneau:
Yeah, yeah.

Mark Wollenberg:
And I grew up in Kelowna actually. So I love doing outdoor stuff, being on the lake in the summertime, skiing in the winter. I played lots of sports, football, basketball, soccer, so very, very much enjoy the outdoors. I don’t play competitive sports right now, I’m just not quite able to get down the floor as fast as I used to, but I enjoy swimming, working out at the gym. We have five children. My wife and I have five children and they’re all adults now. So we have time now to go hiking, walking, just to enjoy what living in the Lower Mainland is offering us.

Isaac Dagneau:
Yeah, that’s awesome. And grandchildren as well or?

Mark Wollenberg:
One grandchild. Yes.

Isaac Dagneau:
Oh my goodness, that’s good.

Mark Wollenberg:
Yeah. So we’re kind of in that place of just enjoying sort of what we’ve pour into our children, the things that we’re seeing them do and celebrating with them the accomplishments in their lives and how do we support them, I guess, is what we’re looking at in the next season of our life.

Isaac Dagneau:
That’s good. That’s really good. All right, so IJM, again, International Justice Mission, I feel like a lot of people, including myself, we just have this sort of vague idea like we’ve heard of IJM a little bit. In fact, I think the first time I heard of IJM was back in, I was a little bit late in hearing about it. It was 2012 and one of my coworkers who I was serving with at The Old Spaghetti Factory said that she was in school doing her law so that she can go and work for IJM. I was like, what’s it IJM? And she told me about it and she explained a little bit. But anyways, we have this vague idea that IJM is okay, it’s to do with justice, it’s all around the world, it has Christian roots, but what exactly is IJM and what exactly does it do?

Mark Wollenberg:
Well, International Justice Mission primarily addresses the problem of violence against the poor. When we look at issues of global poverty, we see that the poor suffer because they have the lack of the basic necessities of life, clean drinking water, access to medical care, education. Those are realities that exist in the world today. And most people are aware of that, what most people aren’t aware of is the fact that the poor also experience this every day violent assault because the poor have no power. They are vulnerable to those who have power to exploit them because either they don’t have education or they’re just seen as easy targets to be exploited. Whether it’s to be forced into slavery, working in a brick kiln in India or sex trafficked into a brothel in again another sort of place that exploits the most vulnerable, the children really. And so Cambodia, we had a project there and the Philippines as well. So those are the kinds of things that we address. So it’s the violence, the everyday violence, the poor experience.

Isaac Dagneau:
Right. So a lot of times in the West, maybe your main, I shouldn’t say your main, because you could tell me that, but you really want to make it known to a lot of people, like this is what’s actually going on in the world. But when you’re in those different countries, what exactly are you doing to stop this sort of violence and stuff like that?

Mark Wollenberg:
So we do want people in Canada and around the world and the Western world to understand that this reality exists for the poor in the developing world. The UN estimates that 4 billion people in the world live outside the protection of the rule of law, and that’s in the developing world. So no one there to protect them from those who abuse their power, take advantage of them. So what IJM does in our casework is we investigate. So we have people who will go to find those who are being exploited. So they’ll pose in undercover settings to find those who are being exploited. We then have… And we do this in cooperation with local authorities. So we don’t have any standing to go and rescue anybody out of a brothel or a place where they’re being exploited for their labour.
We work with local police. We have to actually train oftentimes local authorities to understand the need to engage with us in getting people out of these places. But then we have a great aftercare group of professionals who help people heal and restore from the trauma that they’ve experienced, because when I talk about the violence, it’s every day. And so that just wears the human spirit down where you’re seen as a commodity, you’re not treated as a human being, but simply as a product that produces well for somebody else. We then have a group of lawyers who then work to take these cases into the public justice system, working with prosecutors in these countries to see that those who do these things are held accountable to the rule of law. It’s not that the laws don’t exist, it’s that they’re not enforced on behalf of the most vulnerable people because in many places, the poor can’t afford a lawyer to actually take their case forward.
So we provide that for them at no cost, so that they’re actually able to see that justice actually can work in their favour. And then we also work with community organizations, churches in these countries to help raise, in these countries, the voice of the most vulnerable, to let people know that these are people that are created in the image of God, that have value and dignity and are worth our time to actually stand with and align ourselves with. So we do a lot of advocacy work then within these countries.

Isaac Dagneau:
That’s awesome. Do you find that most countries are, let’s say villages or whatever you’re working in, if you come and approach them with a project where it’s like, you want to help with some human trafficking or whatever, do you find that most of the times the authorities there accept you like as yes, we want to work with you as an outside organization? Like is it most of them?

Mark Wollenberg:
When we first started, it actually was not that. It was actually very hard going because-

Isaac Dagneau:
I would imagine that.

Mark Wollenberg:
First of all, you have to acknowledge that the problem exists and that’s even true here in Canada. We think Canada is this great, justice-loving country, but the reality is injustice occurs here as well. And so even to acknowledge that human trafficking exists in Canada as it does in the developing world is sometimes hard for people to do. But then you also deal with some cultural issues in which you have a system in India that place people in different levels of sort of value within the country. And now the caste system was outlawed. So it was said, this isn’t what we want to have as a functional thing, but yet it’s still exists as people have grown up with that kind of thinking.
So part of what IJM’s approach is, is to come in and say, “How can we help you?” So we do a lot of training of police officers to help police officers understand the value they have to keep people safe in their communities. And sadly in some of these countries, police officers are paid like a half-time salary and they’re not seen as the professionals that we treat police officers with here. So having to build capacity and understanding is one thing that we do. And also train judges, prosecutors, social workers, to basically let them know we’re here to help you in this fight because there are good people in these countries who want to do something, but oftentimes they just don’t have the resources or they don’t have the time to invest in actually transforming public justice systems like we’re trying to do.

Isaac Dagneau:
It’s amazing. And you briefly mentioned a little bit of connecting with the churches, but what is the spiritual component of IJM sort of look like?

Mark Wollenberg:
Yeah, it really comes from understanding this God of justice who in scripture aligns Himself and pays particular attention to the widow, to the orphan, to the marginalized. And in passages like Isaiah 1:17, we’re told, “Seek justice, encourage the oppressed, defend the course of the fatherless and the widow.” And we say, “Well, great.”

Isaac Dagneau:
Yeah.

Mark Wollenberg:
Who wouldn’t say yes to that? But then you go, so what would an oppressed person actually find encouraging if that’s what we’re supposed to do? And so one of my favorite talking points is basically someone who’s in a brick kiln or in a steel factory working as a slave or trafficked into a brothel. If they knew that people in North America were praying for their release, we’re actually speaking up and saying, this is a situation that shouldn’t be happening in our world today. I think they’d be encouraged just knowing that people are aware and beginning to say, “How do we change this?” Because if you’re hopeless, if you think that no one knows about you or no one even thinks that your situation is worthy of their time and energy, well that’s very discouraging.
But when we can say to people, no, there are people who are supporting IJM in other parts of the world to say, “We know you’re here and we’re coming for you. We want to rescue you.” That’s super encouraging to them.

Isaac Dagneau:
Yeah you even look, just kind of relate this what you’re just saying. You think of Acts when Peter was in prison, had the church earnestly praying for him, the angel came and rescued him. So not only is it encouraging for them to know that people are praying, but I mean God works through our prayers as well at the same time right?

Mark Wollenberg:
And we believe that prayer is such an active part of seeking justice. It’s not a passive thing where you just kind of think, “Well, we’re just going to pray for justice.” But it actually becomes an active part of what is the fuel in the sense to keep us motivated because it’s hard to work. Following Him into these places.

Isaac Dagneau:
That’s really, really cool. Now to move a little bit more into just how we as Christians think about justice. I find that in the North American church right now, I feel like we’re somewhat more focused on maybe right doctrine or theology, right programs, right churches, right home groups, right music, all these different things. More than the actual practice of the doctrine sometimes. And we’ve heard it said that you can say right orthodoxy like right beliefs should lead to, right orthopraxy. The right practice of those things. And I’d mentioned to you that I feel like more Christians in the West would be prone to go to a conference on justice than actually go out and do justice practically get into the dirty world. So I guess the question is why does the church seem to hesitate with this, especially in the West when it comes to this actual justice?

Mark Wollenberg:
I think there’s a couple of things, one is I think we really need to read through the gospels again with the eyes of a God of justice, who calls us to justice. And then also through the words of Jesus and the things that He did when He was here on this earth. His very first sermon in a synagogue in Nazareth, pulls out the scrolls from Isaiah and then preaches a sermon in Luke 4:18 and 19 basically is the words that He spoke that the good news is being proclaimed to the poor. And then we read on that those who are blind will have sight, those who are in captivity will be freed and those who are oppressed will be released. It’s this, the words and the actions together that Jesus came to announce and to say, “If you’re marginalized, if you’re seen as less than valuable as a human being in this world, there’s something wonderful that God has to say to you.”
This kingdom that Jesus came to announce is actually good news because it turns that upside down and God aligns Himself with the poor. And so part of the challenge I think for the churches that we’ve missed going to the poor. If we’re not engaged in an active way with the poor, we’re not probably going to see injustice up close and personal. Like actually know someone; meet someone who’s experienced that. But when we actually engage with the poor, that’s when we begin to actually come face to face with the reality of this is what it looks like. This is how people suffer. So one of the churches that we planted in Edmonton is sort of fringe inner city area and you begin to realize that people live in sometimes in poverty, but not because they make bad choices, but because actually there are few options and people take advantage of that.
So slum landlords will not have great living conditions and have places in disrepair and don’t care about it because, well, it’s just the poor. And if you don’t like it, we’ll find another place. And all of a sudden you start aligning yourself and becoming friends with those people and it’s like, “No, this is somebody that I want to fight for.” They deserve to be treated with dignity and respect just like I would if I was in that situation. So using some of our, in a sense, some of our power to come alongside those who are powerless is a great way to begin to balance and bringing quality into the world. And so that’s one part. And I think the other part is sometimes in our nice comfortable life to look at the horrific reality of this kind of injustice and violence it just, it’s upsetting to us.
And so we would rather numb ourselves in other ways to this reality. And so there’s something of a spiritual awakening that needs to take place that we actually would see the world with the same eyes that this God of justice sees the world. And for me, one of the things that’s been quite profound is that this God who sees everything looks at all the good and evil in the world has not just said, “Enough,” and blown everything up. There’s a restraint that He’s shown. And I think that’s because He’s waiting for us to get this so that we begin to join Him and actually bringing about the kind of transformation that Jesus came to declare the good news. Folks, the world’s kingdom is not the Kingdom of God and we get to work towards bringing that kingdom here on this earth.

Isaac Dagneau:
You had mentioned the scary passage that we kind of don’t like to look at Matthew 25 for those who are kind of unfamiliar, you want to kind of paraphrase what Jesus says there?

Mark Wollenberg:
Yeah. So Jesus is having this conversation with His disciples and He’s talking about, the sheep and the goats. And it’s an end time kind of judgment type of conversation. They saying like, “Who’s in, who’s out?” And basically Jesus makes us this scandalous statement that those who treated the poor, which ultimately Jesus reveals is Him, who feed the hungry, who give water to those who are thirsty, who visit those in prison, who clothe the naked, that they’re doing this to Jesus. And ultimately at the end of that passage in Matthew 25, it’s like, well, you get to go into eternity. And so I think that there’s something in that passage that we need to grab ahold of. And I’m not at all saying that we do not pay attention to what Christ did on the cross and all of those things.
But this is pretty radical for us to look at Jesus’s words here saying, “There’s something that you can equate to what you do to the poor, to the marginalized, that also is an indicator of your standing with Me.” So that kind of makes me go, “Oh, so how many churches evaluate their kind of standing with Jesus or individual believers, evaluate their standing of Jesus by how many people have, I’ve had, how many people have I visited?”

Isaac Dagneau:
Acquainting yourself to the poor.

Mark Wollenberg:
Yeah exactly.

Isaac Dagneau:
And you’ve mentioned also about, you know, Galatians when Paul and Barnabas are sent out, they remember the poor, right?

Mark Wollenberg:
The only instruction given in the New Testament about how to plant a church was given to Paul and Barnabas by the leaders of the church in Jerusalem and it was, remember the poor. The very thing Paul said we were glad to do. So obviously there was something that Jesus taught that His disciples caught that the only thing that they would say if you’re going to actually plant churches and what are you going to put into the DNA of any new community that you would start, remember the poor. And as a church planter myself, it wasn’t until actually I planted two churches already, but I heard someone speak on this passage and I went, “Oh, I’d never thought about that.” And so the third church that we planted was actually intentionally planted to be amongst and with the poor. And they become our friends, not just that, “Hey, we’re going to come in here and do these things for you.” But we actually got to meet people and build friendships and relationships.

Isaac Dagneau:
That’s so good. Our conversations they’re quick, right? I just want to give it a little scraping and different things. So let’s hone in on one thing again, when I was first talking to you earlier on you had mentioned that you went to the Philippines and that you were sort of your eyes were open to this new kind of cyber-sex trafficking. So I was wondering if you kind of share a little bit about that and just kind of what that is.

Mark Wollenberg:
Yeah. So IJM has worked in the Philippines with sort of street level exploitation of children through brothels and nightclubs, and we’ve really seen a significant decrease in the number of children. In fact, in the city of Cebu, a 79% decrease in the number of children being sexually exploited through storefront kind of the expectation like that.

Isaac Dagneau:
Awesome, awesome. Yeah.

Mark Wollenberg:
But a new reality has come up and that is cyber-sex trafficking, which is basically the live-streaming of sexual exploitation, of sexual abuse of children, and this is sadly taking place in homes. So it’s actually under the awareness and cooperation of parents who will exploit their own children or relatives, children, cousins, nephews, and will live-stream this to audiences around the world. The Philippines has a growing infrastructure to handle the internet and wireless activity, and the sad part about that is that it’s being used by people to exploit children. The reality is that the purchasers, the demand side is coming from the West. So that’s the challenge that we also have to realize, and Canada actually is in the top three countries of nations that hosts and resource and provide images of children being sexually exploited in the world.
So the US, Russia and Canada are the top three in the world. So this stuff, again, it affects us here, but IJM works actually, to rescue these children out. And just last week we were able to rescue four children, two families, so their siblings, four children from one family, four from another in one operation. And we take them into an aftercare facility where they’re cared for, where they’re given the right kind of therapy and treatment and then we work to actually help them restore their lives.
In March, I was in Washington at a global paragraph gathering and we met our first survivor of cyber-sex trafficking that we rescued. She’s now 19, so she’s an adult, and the transformation in her life was amazing. She joined us in prayer to ask God to continue to rescue more children like her who are being exploited in this way. And so that hope is really something that we hold onto as well, that these incredibly brutal experiences that children experience are not the end of their life. That they actually can be restored to a place of wholeness and dignity and life.

Isaac Dagneau:
Yeah, that’s so good. I remember, I’m actually going to put this video on our episode pages, a video about cyber sex trafficking that IJM Canada put out. And there was just this one really just profound scene where it showed just a little bit of the children being exploited, but then it showed this aerial view of a whole bunch of urban houses in the West and it says, this is who the consumers are.

Mark Wollenberg:
Yeah.

Isaac Dagneau:
And it’s just, it opens your eyes to think this is my neighbourhood.

Mark Wollenberg:
And that’s why we’ve started this campaign called, Not On My Screen. So if you go to notonmyscreen.ca, you’ll find out more about it. But basically it’s saying, here in Canada, we want people to stand up and say, first of all, they’re not going to view it. So we’ve got a little sticker that you can purchase that, just put on your phone or your tablet and just say I’m not going to engage in watching this. And the other is you can take a a pledge that basically says, if you see anything or if you know of anyone engaged in this, that you will actually not be just passive, but you’ll actually report it. And there’s a place, you can go to cybertip.ca where those kinds of things can be reported. And we just, we want Canada to become a nation that is not known because of our demand for this kind of stuff, but actually we start standing up and saying, “This isn’t right, this isn’t what should be taking place.” So that’s where we’re hoping Canadians will join us in.

Isaac Dagneau:
I love it. If you have one thing, I guess you could say to encourage, I guess Christians across this nation when it comes to remembering the poor, to be really exact, thinking of justice more, what would you want to say to encourage? You are a pastor also, so in a pastoral way, what would you say to us?

Mark Wollenberg:
I would ask God, the God of justice to open your eyes to the things just around you that sometimes we just overlook or we neglect or we don’t think about, like this could be happening here. That we actually ask God to help us to see, and then once we see, then it’s how do we respond. And sometimes it’s just to start off with praying and we do that. Or if you see someone you know who is being bullied that you actually step in and say, “This isn’t okay.” And the best way to do that actually is still to come and speak to the person being bullied and to show them that you’re a friend. You don’t have to confront the bully you align yourself with the person that is there.
Telling people to stop telling sexist and racist jokes is just another way that we begin to hit it at those small things that sometimes happen in our culture that we accept but really are at their base injustice because they’re demeaning. And so those are things that are a simple place that you can begin. You can find out more about IJM on our website, ijm.ca that will tell you about more what we can do as we look for people to partner with us in the developing world. But your eyes open and your mouth willing to engage in this stuff here.

Isaac Dagneau:
Great. Well that’s our time obviously, but thank you so much Mark just for coming to our studios and talking to us about this. Thank you very much.

Mark Wollenberg:
Great, thank you.

Kourtney Cromwell:
This episode is a great tool to be able to stop and think about what’s really going on in the world we live in. Yes, it might be chaotic and overwhelming, but if we’re placing our trust in Jesus and continually learning how to walk like him, we can find peace and hope. As I mentioned at the beginning of this episode, this is our last week of the throwback series and like always we’ll have all the links up on our episode page online. So if you’re interested in finding out more about what you can do to help with International Justice Missions course you can find that on our website or like Mark said, go to ijm.ca.
We recognize that amidst the fear and panic that has risen during the COVID-19 pandemic, that there are still opportunities to learn and listen, especially if you’re listening to this and are either in self-isolation, working from home, or are being quarantined. Ultimately we know that God is in control and indoubt will continue to produce our regular episodes while providing more resources for you to listen to and engage with on our website and on social media.
We want to assure you that the indoubt staff is taking necessary precautions for overall safety and health and we will continue to keep the conversation going on the show. So if you’re looking for a little extra something right now, I’d encourage you to check out our Bible study on the book of Jude. It’s a five-session verse-by-verse film series where Isaac breaks down Jude as it still remains relevant and important to all of us. You have the option of either going to our website and subscribing to receive the study by email, or you can watch the videos online or I’d also recommend listening to Dr. John Neufeld and there’s multiple ways that you can do that.
You’ll most likely recognize the name as he’s been a guest multiple times, so you can go back to previous episodes of indoubt or you can go to Back to the Bible’s website at backtothebible.ca and there you’ll find Dr. John’s daily broadcasts where he teaches through the Bible. And during this time you’ll also be able to view weekly sermons each Sunday that are designed to help you if your church hasn’t been able to switch to online teachings just yet. Anyways, thanks so much for listening to this episode of indoubt, and I hope that you join us for a new episode next week. Matt Hammitt, former lead singer of Sanctus Real, and author of the new book Lead Me, joins us as our guest. Matt and Isaac talk together about what it means to lead one’s family in faith and discuss how Matt’s decision to leave the music industry changed his family.

Kourtney Cromwell:
Thank you so much for listening. If you want to hear more, subscribe on iTunes and Spotify or visit us online at indoubt.CA or indoubt.com we’re also on social media, so make sure to follow us on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter.