Ep. 222: Habits of Grace

Isaac Dagneau:
Hey, welcome to indoubt. My name is Isaac, one of the indoubt hosts and with me today on the show is author, pastor, and executive editor for desiringgod.org, David Mathis. Thanks for being on the show again.

David Mathis:
Isaac, what an honour to be back with you.

Isaac Dagneau:
Yeah, it’s been almost three years ago now that we had you on the show. As I was looking at the transcript, just a few minutes ago. I was looking at the transcript and you mentioned almost three years ago that your wife was 35 weeks pregnant. You have like a three-year-old.

David Mathis:
That’s right. Yeah, baby Mercy will be three years old on April 10th. Just around the corner here from the time where we’re recording. So, it really is right at three years.

Isaac Dagneau:
That’s awesome. Well that’s great. Mercy is her name?

David Mathis:
That’s right. Yes.

Isaac Dagneau:
That’s beautiful. That’s awesome. For our new listeners, David, and for others who may need a reminder because it has been three years. Can you just kind of fill us in a little bit about who you are as a person and also just weave into that how you came to know Jesus?

David Mathis:
That would be a joy. First and foremost, I’m a Christian and then probably second is I’m a husband to Megan. We’ve been married almost 13 years. I’m a father of four. We have twin boys who will be 10 years old this summer, and a daughter Gloria, who is five and a half, and then baby Mercy, as I just mentioned. Who’s almost three, but she’s still a baby in our hearts as her parents. We love her as our baby girl. Even though she’s walking and talking and is amazing.
I’m one of eight pastors at Cities Church in Saint Paul, Minnesota. We are five years old now. Just had our fifth anniversary in January. We were planted out of Bethlehem Baptist in January of 2015. With four of us original kind of founding pastors. We’ve had four in the meantime and have a congregation of about 300 members and 400, 450 or so on Sunday mornings in our worship time together. Previous worship time and we’re all bunkered down now here during this corona crisis.
Growing up, I grew up in a… I have Christian parents. It is a priceless gift to have Christian parents who love and trust the Bible. I grew up in church in Spartanburg, South Carolina. My parents and home church put all sorts of kindling in place for my faith.
Whether God first lit that kindling or he just blew on it and blew a flame on it, like never before. My freshman year at Furman University. I’m not sure which, but everything changed for me my freshman year. I went from looking back on it, being very much more of a natural person in high school. I loved baseball. I was at church. I would’ve told you I loved church, but boy baseball really ran my life. I was just more of a natural person. Things really changed for me freshman year.
Christ became a passion, a joy, a treasure like never before. Probably, I think it’d be fair to say I had a very duty-oriented Christianity. The flame of joy was really lit in a clear way freshman year. Probably the spring term of my freshman year in being discipled by an older student, a junior at Furman, who was investing in my life and then leading us through a study of a book called Desiring God by this guy named John Piper, who I didn’t want to read because he wasn’t a Southern Baptist, but I agreed to because I wanted to be part of this small group. That was significant in turning my life around in kind of a different orientation.

Isaac Dagneau:
Yeah, absolutely. It’s so cool. I was waiting for you maybe to say what it was in your freshman year there that brought you – that lit the flame of joy – and you brought up discipleship. I know we’re not talking about necessarily discipleship primarily on this conversation, but just to hear you say that, it excites me. That discipleship and the importance of older maybe Christians pouring into investing in younger Christians is just so essential and you’re a fruit of that.

David Mathis:
That’s right. I love talking about disciple making. Very happy to do so here or anytime soon if you’d like to talk about disciple making. It’s not irrelevant to the book. There is a chapter in the last section called the Coda, about the great commission and that’s very much about disciple-making and how disciple-making is a means of grace. Not just to the disciple, so to speak, but to the one who’s doing the investing.
Disciple-making’s very much a two street. God is often pleased to do major work. Perhaps even more significant work in the life of the discipler as that person invests in one or a few younger Christians in the faith.

Isaac Dagneau:
That’s so good. Well, let’s definitely plan to have that conversation. That’d be so good, but you mentioned your book. Few years ago now, you wrote a book called, Habits of Grace: Enjoining Jesus Through the Spiritual Disciplines.
Again, for those that maybe this is completely new to them, they’re new listeners and this is just… Yeah, new to them. You and the book are new. To set us in motion for this conversation David. Can you just give us a brief summary, synopsis of what you were hoping to accomplish? What was the point of this book?

David Mathis:
Yeah, I want to be contagiously helpful with other people, for other people about my greatest joy being in Jesus. I want others to find Him to be their great treasure. What I seek to do there is in the book here, just share a few things I’ve learned along the way about feeding, and sustaining, and shaping our souls through the means that God’s given us. To pursue His ongoing in the Christian life.
I was in college ministry for several years, campus outreach. Had done some teaching of college students through Bethlehem College and Seminary. This just kind of came up over and over again. I was assigned to talk about the spiritual disciplines.
I found the spiritual disciplines in my walk to be very life-giving. Not a duty, but very much a joy that would feed soul, sustain my soul; contribute to a kind of spiritual and life thriving and what are the channels?
If Christ is our greatest treasure, how are we going to pursue Him? Out in the woods? Random events? Spontaneously? What steps are there that we can take? What has God given us? What kind of dignity has He given us as His creatures and as the redeemed to pursue as we seek after Him.
“Oh God, you are my God.” Psalm 63. “Humbly, I seek You.” What does it look like to seek Him? That’s what the book is about. As we talk about habits for grace.

Isaac Dagneau:
Thinking about this David, we as humans naturally do what will bring us pleasure. That’s just the way that we’re created. You’re talking about you want to find joy in God and you’re providing just a way for people to know how they can kindle that joy and bring about that joy.
Except, you called your book Habits of Grace. Habit is something that you have to learn and discipline yourself to do. Why would you call it Habits of Grace rather than just, things you can do to create more joy with God?

David Mathis:
Yeah, good question. In one sense it is that.

Isaac Dagneau:
Right.

David Mathis:
Things you can do. What are the God given paths? For instance, Zacchaeus wants to have an encounter with Jesus. Does he just go walk around in the wilderness or does it hear which way Jesus will be passing? And he goes and positions himself in a tree, but he positions himself along the way Jesus is passing. Or the blind man, Bartimaeus.
How does he have an encounter with Jesus in which his sight is restored? He doesn’t just walk around aimlessly throughout Galilee. He goes to a spot. He hears Jesus is passing this way and he positions himself along the path of grace. Very much I’m trying to get at that.
Habit is language that is very much envogue in recent generation. There’s been a lot of discoveries related to neuroscience and various habits and how much we humans are creatures of habit, which is no new truth.
I think it goes way back to philosophers and theologians. Who have recognized and observed for centuries how much we’re creatures of habit, but there’s some new focus on that. There’s some ways in which as we learn more about the brain, how habits are created, and reinforced, and rewarded. I want to draw on some of that in some very thin and limited ways.
Then mainly talk about these ancient paths, habit. That the idea of habit is not new for Christians. How can we learn from some of these ancient remedies? As to the way that the people in God’s church have found depth and sustenance for their souls for centuries.

Isaac Dagneau:
Yeah, that’s so good. If some people are a little bit familiar with the study of spiritual disciplines. They might know or have heard of Donald Whitney’s book, Richard Foster’s book, or other books. They have many, many, many. You kind of say in your preface that you’re not going to list just a handful of made like all these disciplines, but you hone in on these three general principles. Hearing God’s voice, kind of talking about the Word of God and then prayer. Then your fellowship, your corporate church life.
I’d like to take some time just to kind of walking through each of these. Just to give myself and our listeners just a snapshot of what you kind of mean by these. Let’s start with the Word. What do you mean by, hearing God’s voice? Because I know that if someone searches how to hear God’s voice on Google, they are going to get so much obviously. What is it to hear God’s voice in relation to this idea of habits of grace?

David Mathis:
By hearing His voice, I mean hearing His voice in His Word, in scripture, by the power of the Spirit. Don’t see this as a dead letter. The Holy Spirit is alive, and He loves to make God’s written objective external words come to life in the heart and mind of the believer. The encouragement to hear God’s voice is an encouragement to saturate our lives in the Scriptures.
Whether that’s through reading, through study, through meditation, through listening with these little devices we carry around with us, that offer us amazing possibilities for hearing God’s Word read in a way that hasn’t been the case as much in recent modern life.
Hearing God’s Word preached. The emphasis there is on hearing God’s voice in His Word. Jesus says, “My sheep hear My voice.” Not only that’s the voice you hear in the woods and only that’s the voice you hear in your head. I think the voices in your head are from you, probably not from God.
If you want to hear God speak, go to the amazing book He gave us, which we should never be bored with this book. He made it big enough that we will not come close to exhausting this in one human lifetime. He means for us to engage that book by His Spirit. He is the God who is speaking. Not only has spoken. He is the guy who is speaking and does so through His Word, by the power of His Spirit.

Isaac Dagneau:
David, I’m just thinking if someone’s just listening to this podcast right now, this episode, and maybe they’re totally new to Christianity. When you say that we can hear God’s fresh real living voice in this ancient book. They only have maybe the idea of the Bible that the Simpsons has promoted. Let’s say, it’s old, dead.
Can you just give a, just a very short, I’m not asking for a big theological thing, but just a very short, what do we see in the Bible? Is it just historical boring narrative? What do we see in the Bible?

David Mathis:
The Bible first and foremost is a collection of books. It’s kind of a library in your hand. There’s 66 books. 39 of them came from Moses. The great prophet, the first and great prophet, and the chroniclers of history, and profits throughout the Old Testament who testified to God’s ongoing work in revealing Himself to this people called Israel.
That led up to God Himself coming in the person of His Son. Fully God, fully human in the person of Christ. Who is God’s Word, capital W. Long ago at many times and in many ways God spoke to the prophets, the Old Testament.
In these last days, Hebrews one says, “He has spoken to us in His Son.” So Jesus Himself is the capital W Word. He is God’s Word to us. If you were to ask, what is it that God says to humanity? One answer would be, He says “Jesus.” And He says, Jesus so fully that He embodies this message, this revelation in a person that is His own self in the person of His Son. Namely this Jesus of Nazareth, fully God, fully man.
Jesus is the capital W Word. Then Jesus didn’t leave us without written witness through His apostles. He had specially appointed spokesman, called the apostles, that give us the 27 books of the New Testament.
The Bible is rich with various genres. A third of the Bible is poetry. There are stories, some of the best stories in the history of the world and humans throughout time have found this the most, in general, the most compelling of all books. The Bible has been copied, and printed, and distributed in ways that far surpass any other book in the history of humanity. If the Bible’s boring, even apart from being born again, there’s a problem with you if the Bible is boring.
Then all the more, if you claim to have your eyes open by Christ. If you claim to love Him and know Him, the Bible is just a banquet for a soul that is hungry for the true God. That doesn’t mean that day one we understand it all or most of it all. It’s a lifelong kind of project and there is a joy to be found and cultivated. God has given the church a wealth of Christian teachers to help along those lines.
Don’t read it. Don’t taste it once and think that you’ve had the whole meal. There’s a lifetime of discovery, and learning, and tasting to do as you come to this library called the Bible.

Isaac Dagneau:
That’s so good. David, now I’m thinking of those listeners maybe that do habitually read the Bible or even maybe not every day sometimes, but maybe every week and they read it. What are some disciplines that you talk about in your book that they can apply when maybe their Bible reading isn’t really doing anything for them.
Maybe they expect this very mystical thing to happen in their hearts and their minds, but if they’re reading and they’re just not really getting it, what are some things that you talk about in your book that can help them sort of kindle this flame of joy in Christ?

David Mathis:
Well, if I could focus it on one thing, I’d focus on what we call meditation. By meditation, I’m talking about Christian meditation. Not Eastern meditation where the goal is to empty your mind.
Christian meditation fills the mind with words from God but doesn’t just let them pass through quickly. Like may happen in typical reading. Meditation lingers. Meditation continues to think, and ponder, and chew on the content.
As modern readers, we are so used to books that were written quickly to be read quickly. This is not how it worked in the ancient world. They did not have the printing press. It was difficult to produce a book. It was difficult to write a book. Written books were given serious contemplation. Great care with every stroke, every jot, and tittle. It’s very carefully recorded and they were meant to be heard, and reheard, and thought on, and meditated on.
The Bible is a book written by people who meditated. They didn’t just read fast. They read slowly and they reread, and reread, and reread. Those kinds of people produced a book for the world to be read slowly, and heard, and reheard, and be pondered.
Sometimes I’ll encourage people to think in terms of reading, and study, and meditation. There’s a place for reading. For reading for breadth. A lot of times we don’t sit down long enough with the Bible to just say, to sit in front of first Chronicles and read the whole thing or sit down with a book of Romans and read start to finish. Or the book of Hebrews or even a gospel.
These were originally like motion pictures of the day. Where they would hear the whole thing read at once. When Paul’s letter to the Romans arrived in Rome, they didn’t say, “Oh, no stop after chapter one,” as it was read to them. The whole book of Romans was read to them.
We could do better a lot of us, in reading the Bible more often for breadth. Just to sit down for 30, 45 minutes, an hour. Maybe even an hour and a half and just read. Just to cover and see how big themes relate to each other.
The author to the Hebrews. As well as throughout New Testament. They mean for us as we read and hear the last chapter to still have in our recent memory what they said in the first chapter. That can be helped by it, but then also because so much time has passed, these are ancient documents. We live in a very different world. With automobiles, and computers, and smartphones. We need to do some serious study to get ourselves into a position to understand better what we’re reading.
It’s one of the reasons the Bible is a lifelong project among others. Not just reading, but study. Study would be a time where you slow down. If reading is like watching a movie in real time. Study would be like going into slow motion maybe and you can ask questions about the scene and how it relates to other circumstances. You want to cultivate a kind of faithful curiosity to ask questions.
When you read a statement or read a word or phrase and you’re not quite sure what that means, what the author means to communicate. To have a time to pause and ask. God’s Word rewards good questions. It is very much worth asking the hard questions. Don’t fear your hard questions. God is not threatened by your hard questions. Ask them and go looking for answers, and consult teachers, and ask friends and see if you can find answers to those questions.
Then a third level past reading, study would be meditation. Meditation… If study is slow motion, maybe meditation is like freeze frame. Where you just come to a word, come to a phrase in context and let the truth of it press down into your heart. Linger over that statement. Let that reality sit on the tongue of your mind so to speak.
Have you tried to see if your heart can be moved by it? Not just have the data flow through your head. I don’t think this is a process that everyone needs to go through every day. You read first and all right now I’m going to have a study season. Then have a meditation season.
For me, the way it typically works, in just daily Bible intake, is I begin with reading. While I’m reading, I’m trying to try my best to read in a leisurely, unhurried way. I want to understand the author. I’m not trying to get through this chapter and check a box. I want to understand what God is saying to the world and to me right here in that day’s assignment.
I go through a Bible reading plan that has assignments for each day of the year. That way I’m groggy in the morning. I just open up my plan and go right to the place I’ve been told to read. I don’t need to make a new assignment for the day.
Then as I read, I am on the lookout for a place where I can camp, set up shop, meditate. On a daily basis I’m not looking to do a lot of study. I don’t think of my morning reading as Bible study. I do that another time.
In the morning, I’m certainly wanting to take in what God’s Word is saying and then find a place to linger and meditate. Then in going from Bible reading into meditation, I’m taking a few moments there where I’m lingering over that and I want to apply it to myself. I want to feel if God would be pleased. The weight and significance of this text.
Not just treat it as information but ask God if he’d do the work of transformation on me, in me. Then let that be a natural process going into prayer. To move to prayer from what I’ve lingered over, what I’ve meditated on, but that’d be the inspiration for that day’s prayer. Rather than just defaulting to a list.

Isaac Dagneau:
Yeah. Well, let’s do that. That’s a perfect transition and I enjoyed that. That’s so good. I hope all of us actually apply that meditation part more because we’re just so used to reading and then that’s it, but actually allowing it to affect us is essential. You move on to prayer here.
You did talk about this idea just to list. That’s kind of the stereotypical and pretty much the way that many of us conceive of prayers. A shopping list of things that we need healing grandma’s back, and praying for this, praying for that. Maybe a question would be what is it to be someone who prays to God?
What is prayer? Because is it just petitions or is there something more going on? What can we do to help ourselves grow in a healthy prayer life?

David Mathis:
Yeah, I do. As you mentioned, I do love talking about prayer as the gift of having God’s ear. I think this is such an amazing thing. That the Creator of the universe not only has spoken and that is unbelievable grace that God has revealed Himself to us. We’re not owed that, but this Creator not only speaks to us in His Word, He also pauses and wants to hear back from us.
The amazing reality of prayer is because of Jesus, because of who Christ is, what He’s accomplished for us, because He rose, and ascended, and as glorified humanity sits in God’s presence on the very throne of the universe interceding for us. We have access to God in prayer. God hears us. He’s attentive to our words. It’s a remarkable thing that we have God’s ear anytime, anyplace, in Jesus Christ.
He wants to hear from us, and He will hear us in Christ if we ask Him. A really important thing there is thinking of prayer as responding back to Him means that prayer is not our initiative. Prayer is something that in which we respond to God. He’s the one who initiates. He speaks first. He’s Creator, we’re creature. He’s redeemer, we’re redeemed. He speaks first in His word and then we respond in prayer.
To pray to God is to do so on the basis of some presumed or assumed knowledge of Him. All the better if that knowledge is explicit and if it’s fresh. I’ve been in so many Bible studies groups over the years where a casual way of talking about who wants to start the prayer time is saying, “Hey, anybody want to dial up? I mean who wants to dial up?”
I get what that means. I’m not criticizing that necessarily, but theologically, prayer is not dialing up God. The Bible is God dialing up us. In prayer we’re already on the line. He’s spoken first and in prayer He wants to hear from us in view of what He said to us in His Word, which is why the Bible’s the best guide for prayer in the world. Not just to pray back to God what He said to us precisely, but also in a paraphrase.
In terms of the substance or the content of what God has said in His Word that we should let that inspire our prayers. Apply that to ourselves in prayer. To wife, to kids, to friends, to church, to nations, to unbelieving neighbours.
One thing I do want to emphasize for people about prayer and the Puritans emphasize this very strongly. Is that prayer doesn’t begin with us. It begins with God’s Word and prayer is in response to what He says.

Isaac Dagneau:
That’s so good. As you say that, and I’m just trying to think about this whole idea of kind of contrasting what you’re saying with that shopping list idea. When we have a phone conversation, let’s say, or just a face to face conversation with a good friend of ours, we’re not just asking them to do things for us the whole time. You’re talking about your family. You’re hearing them. You’re responding to what they’re saying. You’re thanking them for what they’ve done. It’s an actual conversation.
What you’re saying was what the Word of God, I mean He’s done and said and promised all of these various things. We get to respond and talk to Him about those things. Of course, asking Him things is part of that, but it’s not all of it and there’s so much more. I think that’s great David.
We are running short on time. Let’s jump to the fellowship part, the kind of church life. Then I have a few other questions after that. The other principle you have here is the idea of corporate worship life as a principle of a habit of grace.
We do live in an individualistic culture in the West here. This idea of living with community, worshiping with community, it’s kind of strange. It can be awkward. Maybe a way to ask this is just, can you inspire us from what you’ve learned from what you’ve lived. Can you inspire us when it comes to this discipline?

David Mathis:
I’m not sure if I can inspire every or most listener, but I’ll tell you what inspires me. I have found in life and confirmed in the Bible that human relationships in this age are best when they’re hardest. When times of conflict and uncertainty arise.
In particular, we’re living in a very uncertain time. Probably the most uncertain few weeks at the national, international level of my life here in early 2020. Proverbs 17:17 says, “A friend loves at all times and a brother is born for adversity.” When we’re living in the easiest, most convenient, most comfortable times, we are not able to appreciate what God is offering us in our brother.
God means for our brothers, our sisters in this age to be for us. Particular means of grace when times are hardest and most difficult. One thing I love reminding myself again and again in the most tricky relationships is the importance of sticking with it and being there for each other. To be the church for each other when times are hardest. To enjoy the hard edges of inconvenient uncomfortable people. The bracing objective reality of commitment to one another when it’s not simple and easy.
It’s precisely at these times that shallow people bow out of relationships rather than going deep. Our generation love to talk a game about community and then on the ground and actual lived out commitments, very thin and shallow. Nobody wants to commit to community. Everybody wants to talk about community and let’s be different. There’s a different vision biblically of being committed to be the church for each other. Not mainly for the easy times, but for the hardest of times.

Isaac Dagneau:
Yeah. Yeah. That’s so good. There’s so much David we could talk about, but I want to jump to the last question here. We are, as you’ve already mentioned a few times now. The time of this recording, our whole world globally is experiencing this pandemic. In a time like this and this can also be stretched over to other times of great trial in the future or in the past.
It can be easier, it might be easy for some people to think, David, there are way more important things to focus on right now than the habits of grace. Than spiritual disciplines. We’ve got this… There’s a pandemic going on. How would you respond pastorally to this?

David Mathis:
There are very few things more important right now than hearing God’s voice and His Word. Having His ear in prayer and belonging to His body in the fellowship of the church. I can just say one thing fresh out of Ephesians three. That I said to our church this morning via video.
One of our little plans here during the pandemic is everybody’s on lockdown. Whether it’s official quarantine in other states or its self-isolation. Strong, authoritative encouragement here in the state of Minnesota.
We’ve been reading together one chapter a day, Paul’s prison letters. Ephesians, Philippians, Galatians, Philemon. We thought it would help put our isolation in context to think about Paul being in prison. This is what happens when you read the Bible. You realize again and again that the things that feel so distressing, or difficult, or problematic in your life are also really brought into a relative relationship with the difficulty in the depth of distress that people faced in biblical times.
I mean it should be an encouraging word to us. The Bible was not forged in easy days. The reason that we have these truths. When God revealed Himself to the world and now to us for the Scriptures, He did something the hardest of times. This is when God shines out all the clearest and brightest with His Word.
I pointed our people this morning to three concrete realities in Ephesians three that I think are really helpful for us in these particular times of self-isolation, and the strangeness, and uncertainty of these days. The first was, the concrete words and this is habits and grace. Paul says, “When I write these things, when you read these things, you can discern my insight into the mysteries of Christ.”
Amazing gift that Paul wrote down certain truths so the church could have them today. This is the glory of reading. The glory of God’s written Word. For most of church history, people have not had their own personal copies and access to the entirety of the Bible. We’re in the minority of church history to all have copies of God’s Word and to be self-isolating in a context in which the Word of God is not locked outside.
We have it with us inside. We have the lifeline with us in our quarantine and self-isolation. We can discern Paul’s insight. We can discern God’s truth through reading. That’s the first one on the list. It was concrete words.
Second then was the concrete people. Ephesians three talks about the church in spectacular terms. “That it is through the church, that God is revealing His glory to the rulers and authorities in heavenly places,” verse 10 of Ephesians three. Then he says, “To Him be glory. To God be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus,” in verses 20 and 21.
The glory of God is being revealed in the world through the Son of God and the people of God in the church. It is an amazing reality that God’s put in our life. That’s that third means of grace we talked about of fellowship.
Then finally there’s a concrete love there as Paul prays for them in Ephesians three. That they would be rooted and grounded in love. That they’d have the ability to understand the height, and depth, and breadth of God’s love and where is that? It’s on display in Christ. It’s not ethereal, it’s not subjective. It is demonstrated in history in that God demonstrated His love and that while were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
That was the encouragement. I think that’s the pastoral word I had for my people this morning, which is very related to habits of grace. Concrete words, concrete people, concrete love in the gospel of Christ. Maybe that would be helpful for some who would hear this in due course.

Isaac Dagneau:
Absolutely, and even though that was for your particular people at Cities Church, I mean, that translates. It’s biblical truth so it translates to all of God’s people around this globe. We do appreciate the work that you’ve done for that and thank you for blessing us with that as well.
David, that brings us to a close of this conversation, but obviously from this conversation there’s a dozen more that we could have. We’ll be in contact more, but anyways. Thank you so much for talking with us again David, and we’ll connect with you soon again.

David Mathis:
Thank you Isaac. It’s a joy to talk about such important things.

Kourtney Cromwell:
I personally love the image that David gave of how the Bible can be seen as a banquet for the soul who’s hungry for the true God. Why would you only take bits and pieces when God’s puts so much before you? I mean, I can definitely say that I sometimes find myself in that place. Deciding what I need, how long I need it for, and not letting God be the one in control or in the lead.
This is definitely a great time to check that and re-evaluate for each one of us. How we can commit to forming new habits of grace. If you’d like more information about David or his book, we’ll have that up on our episode page on our website and you can find everything there.
If you want to follow along with David on Twitter, you can follow him @davidcmathis. I hope you check back in with us next week for a new episode of indoubt, where Daniel has the chance to talk with biblical scholar, author, and international speaker Preston Sprinkle asking the question, how do I talk to my gay neighbour?

Kourtney Cromwell:
Thanks so much for listening. If you want to hear more, subscribe on iTunes and Spotify or visit us online at indoubt.ca, or indoubt.com. We’re also on social media, so make sure to follow us on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter.