Ep. 224: What is Sex?

Kourtney Cromwell:
Welcome to the indoubt Podcast, where we explore the challenging topics that young adults often face. Each week, we talk with guests who help answer questions of faith, life, and culture; connecting them to our daily experiences and God’s Word. For more info on indoubt, visit indoubt.ca or indoubt.com.

Kourtney Cromwell:
Hey everyone, this is Kourtney and I’m so glad you’re with us for another episode of indoubt. If you were able to listen to last week’s episode, you’ll be familiar with who our guest is this week. And as a side note, I definitely recommend that you check that out because it’s a good episode where we’re talking about the subject of LGBTQ, and the meaning and purpose of marriage.
Anyways, this week we’re joined by Preston Sprinkle again, and this time we’re diving into a discussion on sex. Recognizing that sex is a massive topic, there’s only a few ways that we can cover this discussion in the time that we have. So, you’ll hear Daniel and Preston talk through the meaning of sex and what it means in a biblical and cultural context. And then we’re looking at some big issues in our culture that relate to sex. So, polyamory, what is it and how do we respond to it as Christians? And, the relationship between sex and technology. Ultimately, Preston and Daniel talk through more than just the question of what is sex, but also, how are humans to relate to each other sexually so that we can honour God in how we’re expressing ourselves?
The purpose of these episodes with Preston Sprinkle is to hopefully have you start the conversation in your own life, and either begin to or continue to construct a positive vision for marriage and sex. In saying that, I hope that you find this conversation helpful, informative, and a beginning guide to this whole discussion. So, here’s the episode with Daniel and Preston Sprinkle.

Daniel Markin:
Welcome to indoubt. My name is Daniel and I’m joined again by Preston Sprinkle. Preston, welcome back to the program.

Preston Sprinkle:
Yeah, thanks for having me back on.

Daniel Markin:
For those who might’ve missed the last time, Preston, why don’t you tell us a little bit about who you are.

Preston Sprinkle:
I’m 44 years old, been a Christian for about 25 years. I’ve served in churches before, but primarily I’ve been a professor in Christian colleges and universities. But more recently I started an organization called the Center for Faith, Sexuality and Gender. You can go to centerforfaith.com if you want to check it out. Our mission is to help Christian leaders and churches engage questions about faith, sexuality, and gender with theological faithfulness and courageous love. So, both a theological component but also a robust pastoral component as well. So that’s been my world the last three plus years, I guess it is.

Daniel Markin:
I was reading that you did your PhD out in Scotland, is that correct?

Preston Sprinkle:
Yeah. Aberdeen University.

Daniel Markin:
Aberdeen? What was it like living out there? Is it different than living in Idaho?

Preston Sprinkle:
Yeah. Well, I’m in Idaho now. I was in California when I went to Aberdeen. The weather is quite different. And if anybody is listening from Scotland, you’re probably cracking up right now. I’ve moved from the Los Angeles area where winter is… what is it, 70 degrees or 21 Celsius? Whatever. And going to Scotland, in the middle of July, if it’s that warm, people are outside melting. But beyond that, we had a fantastic time. Scotland is an absolutely amazing country and my family and I, we just really fell in love with the UK, so much about it. And any chance we get to go back, we just… We love the culture, we love the people, the lifestyle and everything. So, yeah, it definitely has a big place in my heart.

Daniel Markin:
Great. Well, last time we had you on, Preston, we were chatting about what it looks like to reach out to our gay neighbour and how we can best do that as Christians in truth and love. And with your Center for Faith, Sexuality, and Gender, I guess my question for you is, as you look ahead at our cultures, you look ahead perhaps at Canada, at the UK, at the United States, wherever that might be in the Western world. What do you see are some of the pressing questions on the horizon in regard to sexuality and gender?

Preston Sprinkle:
That’s a good question. I’m getting asked that more and more actually, which is, I think a good thing. When we started the Center, or even before we started it, questions around same sex sexuality were our focal point, the LGB of the acronym. But shortly after we started it, we were getting more questions about the T, or even the Q, or the I, if these acronyms are resonating. So, yeah, questions around gender and what does it mean to be human? What does it mean to be male and female? What does it mean to be transgender? When someone says, “My kid’s transgender,” what does that mean? What actually does that mean? So, we’ve been focusing on those kinds of transgender related questions the last few years.
But what’s next, I think there’s going to be questions related to one, polyamory which has to do… well, polyamory just means plural love. Relationships between more than two people. So a man and two women or three women or three men or whatever, and there’s all kinds of variations within that. So that’s one big thing, but it’s not even on the horizon, but it’s actually more prevalent than people realize. I mean, 5% of the population according to one credible study is in, they might call it a consensual non-monogamous relationship where it’s either an open relationship or it’s between or among I guess more than two people. Then another thing that’s quickly coming is the relationship between sex and technology. Obviously, technology’s advancing like crazy and obviously and unfortunately pornography is a massive problem.
Well, it’s not going to stop there. I mean, as technology keeps advancing and our sex drive doesn’t seem to be slowing down, we have to get ahead of the curve and start asking questions about, for instance, VR sex, virtual reality sex, is that sex? If you’re hooked up to a machine and your mind is in a different reality and you’re having sex with somebody, are you actually having sex with somebody? Or even sex with robots. Now this sounds really farfetched, but according to some pretty credible scholars, they said if technology keeps advancing at this pace, more humans will be having sex with robots by the year 2050 than with other humans.

Daniel Markin:
Oh my. Wow.

Preston Sprinkle:
Well, I mean, think about it. So, technology, is technology going to slow down?

Daniel Markin:
No.

Preston Sprinkle:
Not really. Is sex going to slow down? I don’t think so. So if you follow those two kind of inevitable paths, it’s going to happen. And I don’t recommend people Googling sex with robots, but if you have a filter on your computer, you might not be able to get onto these websites. But I’m not talking about machines, I’m talking about even now in 2020, some of these robots look as human as you and I or close to it. So you have basically sex without all the relational baggage. It is how it’s framed and it’s like… or even some people make a moral argument saying, “Wait, if people are having sex with robots, then that’s going to diminish the sex trafficking industry. It’s going to reduce adultery, aren’t these good things?” So there’s even some moral arguments that people are using to justify sex with robots.
Anyway, all the more reason for Christians to revisit the text of Scripture to say, well, what is sex and how are humans to relate to each other sexually so that we can honour God in how we’re expressing ourselves?

Daniel Markin:
Wow. Well, let’s start right there where you’re going with that-

Preston Sprinkle:
Good morning everybody.

Daniel Markin:
Good morning. Well, welcome to the radio. What is the purpose of sex, Preston? If someone comes to you and says, maybe let’s just imagine they’re a non-Christian and they’re open to Christianity, they’re open to other religions and faith expression, and they come and ask you, “Hey, what is sex?” How would you respond to that?

Preston Sprinkle:
That’s a great question. And it’s a question that can be answered with both the Bible and science because I think both the Bible and science remarkably agree on this one. I know the Bible and science have had a rough go around many questions, around dinosaurs and the age of the earth and stuff, but when it comes to sex, there’s remarkable agreement. So biblically I think obviously procreation is one purpose of sex. And just because we can prevent that now doesn’t mean that just biologically the sex act does not have a procreative element. Clearly all the stuff going on in sex, procreation has to be at least part of the reason why we are wired this way. Also, bonding. The Bible says in Genesis two that a man shall leave his father and mother and the two will become one flesh. That idea of one flesh symbolizes this kind of unique bond.
Now in the New Testament, Paul in First Corinthians even talks about, if you go have sex with a prostitute, you become one flesh with her. So, you have this bonding kind of language when the Bible talks about sex, which is why, I think it’s one of the reasons why sex is supposed to be for marriage, because you’re bonding with the person that you’re committed to. Now we know through neuroscience that you have all these chemicals going on in your body and some of those chemicals are called bonding chemicals. And when you have a sexual experience, whether it’s porn, sex outside of marriage, sex within marriage or whatever, but your body is releasing these chemicals that acts as a bonding agent to the thing that you’re either viewing or the person you’re having sex with.
Someone could say, okay, bonding, procreation and also pleasure. I think pleasure might be more of, not a goal per se, but the thing that drives us towards bonding, drives us towards procreation. But it’s a good thing. God created sex. God created sex to be pleasurable. So there’s nothing dirty about sex per se. And there’s nothing wrong about enjoying sex per se. But pleasure, I don’t think is ever an intended goal in and of itself. I think there’s other higher goals.

Daniel Markin:
Right. Well, that’s an interesting point because I was reading John Piper, his book, Desiring God, in a lecture he gave on a very similar subject. He said, “God, He desires for us to have pleasure. He created us to experience pleasure.” And I sometimes forget that because I tend to think of pleasure and then think, oh, but that’s something only the secular world does. That’s not what Christians are supposed to do. We’re supposed to be pious and follow the Bible and be reserved and stuff. And it’s actually a good reminder for me even to be like, no, it’s okay and it’s actually a good thing to have pleasure, but you will only find full pleasure, the maximum, greatest pleasure when you are in right relationship with God and in right relationship with people.

Preston Sprinkle:
Right. I think in some branches of Christianity, pleasure is almost seen as intrinsically bad, but it’s misguided pleasure or pleasure that may come from misguided behaviour that is only bad. But I mean, think about just our nerve endings are part of our humanity. God created us that way to enjoy things. When you go on a long run, endorphins are released, it makes you feel good. And that’s good. It’s like you’re exercising, you’re being healthy. Food. Think about the pleasure that comes from food. God wired our taste buds a certain way so that we would enjoy food. And you see even that all throughout scripture of two humans enjoying each other and relationship around food and drink and so on. But it’s the abuse of those things that is wrong. But pleasure in and of itself is something God created for us.
It’s not even a neutral thing, God wired us in the world in a way that we would experience pleasure.

Daniel Markin:
So getting back to the idea of what is sex, it is more than just pleasure.

Preston Sprinkle:
Yes.

Daniel Markin:
Which I think is something that we… if you watch movies, you listen to music, it just seems like it should be a consensual thing that is transactional. You’re both receiving pleasure in that way, and then whatever that looks like to you doesn’t matter. You are afraid to find that pleasure whatever way you want. I think that’s how our world would describe what sex is. And what I hear you saying is like, no, God has a design for this, and this is a good thing, and this is so much more, the pleasure is a by-product of it.

Preston Sprinkle:
Well, that’s right. Or even a driver of it. I mean, if sex wasn’t pleasurable, I don’t know if we would be doing it a whole lot and then we probably wouldn’t be procreating, we wouldn’t be bonding with each other. So I mean, I think it is the ingredient that drives us toward the ultimate goals. But yes, it can be final to get, should be the ultimate goal.

Daniel Markin:
So then in the discussion around sex robots or the virtual reality pornography, it seems to me like an issue of people just saying, well, this is the easiest avenue towards this pleasure, to having this transactional experience. So do you see that as like… is it really that harmful? I mean, if I’m just playing devil’s advocate here, right? It’s not harming anyone, they’re keeping it to themselves, how can this be a bad thing?

Preston Sprinkle:
Well, I would say the harm there… Well, first of all, harm is one question we should ask not the only moral question, but secondly, I think there will be some long-term harm. I mean, we see this with, especially kids, teenagers that are, they’re on porn for five, 10 years and then they get married and they literally don’t know how to have sex with another human. Somebody who’s having sex, VR sex or sex with a robot, they’re going to have a really hard time I think, they’re going to build up habits that are going to make it really hard to actually bond with another human or… and this might take it in another direction, but sex is so much more than just the act.
I mean, sexuality is wrapped up into so many different aspects of our humanity so that… well, there’s a reason why sex robots aren’t really being created for females typically because a female sexuality is way… it’s way more intertwined with emotion, intimacy, romance, non-erotic aspects of sexuality, relationship, which is in a sense… I think female sexuality is probably closer to the mark of what is probably good sexuality. But for guys, a lot of times they’re just focused on this one aspect of the whole thing. So yeah, I think that VR sex, sex with robots, will end up reinforcing a really warped view of the holistic nature of what it means to be a sexual being. So I think the long-term harm is going to be… yeah, I just think people aren’t going to be able to engage in a sexual relationship the way God intended it with another human.

Daniel Markin:
There’ll be just a massive feeling of being lost within that.

Preston Sprinkle:
Yeah, it’s going to reinforce the very narrow, thin, anemic view of sex that sex is to bring me pleasure as an individual period and that’s it. And that’s just, well, it’s a thin view of what sex is. I’m going to say again, individual pleasure is a component of it, but when that becomes the ultimate goal, then you’re not going to actually enjoy sex in the way the Creator intended it.

Daniel Markin:
So what about on the other end of that because that sounds… VR sex, pornography, indulging in those sounds like very much a self-gratifying sexual expression. So you brought up the other issue of polyamory. That seems to me like if you’re having multiple partners who are all consensual, is that very much like a giving alternative to this? Do you think that maybe with the increased use of pornography that people are actually resorting to more of this polyamorous or open relationship out of an expression to try and be more giving?

Preston Sprinkle:
Yeah. I have some Christian… I mean, friends would be too strong. We know each other through social media and stuff, that are confessing Christians and are in polyamorous relationships. But they argue it from scripture and that’s exactly what they say. I have more love to give than just one person. And so, they frame it in a way that sounds really virtuous. But yeah, no, I think more and more you’re going to see arguments from scripture justifying polyamorous relationships.

Daniel Markin:
Sorry, just to jump back, can you just define polyamorous relationship one more time?

Preston Sprinkle:
Poly means many, and amor or amore means love, so plural love, many love. So it’s just typically a sexual relationship among three people. And it can take various forms. It could be one guy having a relationship with two different women. It can be one guy with the two women, but the two women are also engaged with each other. So it could be just three or whatever. It’s not just sexual because some people say, “Oh yeah, that’s like swinging.” Swinging, where a boyfriend or girlfriend might say, “Yeah, if you want to go hook up with somebody else tonight, that’s totally fine.” That would be under the umbrella of polyamory. But polyamory would typically be an actual relationship that involves sex but doesn’t reduce the sex among three or more people.

Daniel Markin:
So you are talking about these friends that see it as a more virtuous way of living. They have more love to give. How have you interacted with them?

Preston Sprinkle:
Well, not extensively, honestly. I mean, we’ve run on our website centerforfaith.com, I have other people that write for the ministry and I have a good friend of mine, Branson Paulo, who wrote a pretty lengthy paper arguing for monogamy and arguing against polyamory. And so, we’ve addressed some of the biblical Christian arguments that are used to justify polyamory. I mean, I think it does come down to Genesis one and two and how Jesus even evokes that passage, that there is something necessary in the number two in male and female coming together that best represents Christ and the Church or the Father, Yahweh and Israel. So the number two isn’t arbitrary, it is built into the very definition of what marriage is.
I mean, Jesus makes this point I think pretty explicitly in Matthew 19. It’s interesting in Genesis 2:24, it says, “The man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife and they will become one flesh.” Jesus quotes that passage in Matthew 19:5 and says, “the two will become one flesh.” It’s almost like He changes the text and adds the number two, which is implied in Genesis two, but He makes it really explicit that this-

Daniel Markin:
Very clear.

Preston Sprinkle:
… number is not arbitrary. The hard thing is, and to be honest, you do have examples of polygamy in the Old Testament and sometimes they’re not condemned. Polygamy would be a subset within an umbrella category of polyamory. Now, polygamy is one man and typically several wives who were treated like property, so it didn’t have an egalitarian flavour to it, whereas polyamory does. But it’s still, it’s a plural marriage that isn’t outright condemned. In fact, in Second Samuel 12, God tells David after he sinned with Bathsheba, “How could you do this to me? Look at all the things I’ve given to you. Look at all these buildings and wealth I’ve given to you. Look at all these wives I’ve given to you.”
I was like, well, wait a minute. Hold the phone, did God just talk about the wives in a positive sense that He gave to David? Honestly, I mean, it’s a tough passage. It’s like, man, I don’t know what to do with that. Now, it seems that polygamy is always framed in… well, apart from that passage, framed in a negative light in the Old Testament. And it does seem to be done away with by the New Testament. I would say this, people may disagree with me. I think there’s more clarity in the Bible on prohibiting same sex relationships than there is in prohibiting polyamorous relationships because we do have some positive examples of polygamy in the Old Testament. We don’t have any examples of a same sex sexual relationship that’s painted in positive light.

Daniel Markin:
Would you look at that passage though with David as an example of… David is walking wayward and none of the people that God uses are perfect. And so, God’s sometimes like, He gives us what we want. If we want to walk in sin and that’s what David has chosen, God kind of, He’s like, “Well, I’ll give David the desires that he wants and let’s see how that works out for you, David.” That’s a theme I think we see. Is that what that’s referring to?

Preston Sprinkle:
That’s what I would probably say. I think so. It almost feel like, when Israel was asking for a king and God says, “You shouldn’t be asking for a king. I’m your King.” And they said, “No, we want a king.” And then God says, “Okay, I’m going to give you King Saul.” So He gives them what they want and, in that context, I think He can make a case. So that’s probably what’s going on. Also, God does in the Old Testament operate within the cultural norms of the day. He’s communicating to Israel through the cultural forums in which Israel is living in that day. That doesn’t mean God intrinsically endorses all those forums, but He does relate to Israel through those cultural forums.
Well, this is something we see with all kinds of other ethical issues in the Old Testament. So yeah, you can’t just quote Second Samuel 12 and think that that endorses polygamy or polyamory.

Daniel Markin:
Absolutely. Well, Preston, I mean, there’s so much here and there’re so many different issues, but I guess my question for you, just as we come in for a landing here is, with so many different issues on the horizon, how are we supposed to live faithfully as Christians? And what I mean by that is how are we supposed to live in this world where it just seems like there’s so much going all over the place and how do we be a faithful presence wherever we are?

Preston Sprinkle:
Oh, man. That’s a great question. When it comes to sexuality, I would say this is why it’s important to construct a positive vision for what marriage is, what sex is for, what it means to be a sexual human, what it means to be male and female so that when the latest kind of thing comes up, you’re not just always just addressing this or addressing that. If you have a positive vision for what sex is for, then it’s easy to respond to these other things that don’t align with that vision. But if all you have is like a really thin view of marriage and sex, then you’re going to have to be responding to all of these things that come up every couple of years. And for Christian leaders that might be listening, I mean, really digging deep into a Christian view of sex and sexuality and then helping Christians understand that.
How many Christians could articulate a biblical understanding of what sex is for? Well, let me say this, how many Christians desire sex? And yet how many can give a Christian understanding of what sex is for? That alone, I mean, most people would say, “Yeah, probably,” there’s a huge disconnect there. Well, gosh, leaders, what are we doing? We need to step in and help Christians think through that. So that would be my big thing. Also, God’s good, God’s going to win in the end. The Spirit is really powerful. Prayer works. Keep a level head about you. Be humble. We don’t need to have all the answers right away. We just need to honour Christ in how we’re pursuing these things in the world and keep loving people well.
Nothing’s new. I mean, things are new, but it’s not.

Daniel Markin:
But again, nothing new under the sun. Right?

Preston Sprinkle:
Right.

Daniel Markin:
There’s been issues of gender and sexuality. I mean, in the ancient world too, this were-

Preston Sprinkle:
All this stuff was seen in the ancient world. So there’s nothing we’re looking at now that the New Testament writers weren’t dealing with then.

Daniel Markin:
Well, Preston, I appreciate that, and I appreciate your time and thank you for joining us on indoubt and we look forward to hearing from you soon.

Preston Sprinkle:
Oh my pleasure, man. Thanks for having me on.

Kourtney Cromwell:
I hope that this conversation has given you some time to think about the discussion that surrounds sex in our culture and what the Bible says about it. As Christians, and I like what Preston said, that we need to understand and know what sex and what marriage is so that it’s easy to respond to what doesn’t align with God’s Word and how many of us don’t necessarily know the biblical understanding of those. So this is a really good opportunity to start building into that. Maybe it means asking some questions or, reading some books or, looking into some online resources like Preston’s ministry, Center for Faith, Sexuality, and Gender, so that you can get to that healthy place of having a positive biblical vision of what sex and marriage are.
If you’d like more information about anything we’ve talked about, we’ll have the links up on this episode’s page on our website, and you can also go to prestonsprinkle.com where Preston has multiple resources to continue the conversation on sex, marriage, and the LGBTQ community. Next week we’ll have another new episode and I hope that you join us then.

Kourtney Cromwell:
Thank you so much for listening. If you want to hear more, subscribe on iTunes and Spotify or visit us online at indoubt.ca or indoubt.com. We’re also on social media, so make sure to follow us on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter.