Ep. 234: How Can We Help? (Part 2)

Erika:

Welcome to the indoubt Podcast, where we explore the challenging topics that young adults often face. Each week we talk with guests who help answer questions of faith, life, and culture, connecting them to our daily experiences and God’s Word. For more info on indoubt, visit indoubt.ca or indoubt.com. Hey, it’s Erika, and welcome back to another episode of indoubt. Today we’re joined again by Jonathan Evans, leader of the Salvation Army, Boundless Vancouver, a church plant in the downtown East side of Vancouver. This week, Jonathan is back with Daniel to continue discussing the challenges surrounding the poor in our society and how we can best serve them. Poverty is all around us, whether we choose to pay attention to it or not, but what role do we as Christians have? Are we called to serve the less fortunate or are we called to turn a blind eye? We all know the answer to that question, but how do we practically live it out? This is a great episode and we hope you enjoy it.

Daniel Markin:

Hey, welcome to indoubt. My name’s Daniel Markin And today we’re jumping back into a discussion that we were having with Jonathan Evans on working with the poor and homeless on the downtown East side of Vancouver. So to continue the conversation, here’s my next question. Would you describe, let me use a running illustration for you, okay? So there’s sprints and there’s marathons. It seems to me that sometimes just on a practical level, we like to fix issues like their sprints. We live in a microwave society, things are done fast. So if we throw a lot of money and a lot of effort at something really quickly, we can actually overcome any issue. Do you think that that has any place in helping to serve the poor or is it more like a marathon where look, this is you have to be in this for the long haul and there might be more tense moments, but look, it’s going to be a long gruelling time of faithful presence in the lives of this and taking the long view? Is there elements of both or do you think it’s more one or the other?

Jonathan Evans:

That’s a great question. I remember early on when I came to the downtown East side, I was really inspired by Jackie Pullinger. She came to Missions Fest and she’s like, “Don’t you hate those short term missionaries, those people who are only around for 10 years?” That’s a paraphrase, but then I was like, “Oh gee, I wasn’t thinking of …” We’ve been here quite some time, but there’s people who are called for short term and there’s some people called for long-term. And those long-term people do carry an authority and a weight because of their perspective. But this is what I can say is it’s not based on one individual, it’s the church. Jesus said, “The poor you will always have with you.” He calls us as the church, so whatever your place is in the church, your church should have some relationship with the poor. So it’s beyond a marathon. It’s an ultra marathon or an ultimate marathon because it’s till Jesus comes back and restores his kingdom. That’s when it’s over. I can’t say that my 18 years here is even significant. I’m just a part of the whole church’s story.

Daniel Markin:

Well, yeah, and you’re part of God’s story. God’s weaving his store and you get an opportunity to be a part of that. I guess my thought is I would land on it. It’s both right? God has so many methods by which he can accomplish his mission and he calls each of us to a different race.

Jonathan Evans:

That’s right, and it’s in relationship. That’s the thing is if you’re coming short term, make sure that you’re connecting and being led by someone who is here for the long haul.

Daniel Markin:

Absolutely. Jonathan, what I want to ask you about now is, and I’ll lead with this question, how do we get over the feeling of being taken advantage of in trying to help the poor and the marginalized? Because it could be really easy to just be like, “Well, they don’t need our help.” Yet we’re called to do so. So have there been instances where you’ve been taken advantage of and how do you deal with that?

Jonathan Evans:

Yeah, I’ve been taken advantage of, and that happened a lot when I first came because I was naive and ignorant and because I wanted to be the nice good Christian, I did things wrong. What I can say is our interaction with people in the margins can be very transactional. And when it becomes transactional, then we’re doing harm to them and ourselves. We can be harmed. But when we come in a posture of generosity, we don’t care about being taken advantage of. We see the person and I think about right now, Jesus, when he goes to the pool of Siloam and he sees the person and then he asks, “Do you want to be well?” I think that’s the other thing is seeing what is the deeper need? What’s the real need. Those things can not be achieved by handouts. Those things can not be achieved short-term. Those things require ongoing relationship, support, transformation, hope. Sometimes the best things that we can give people are hope. I do have one little story to share. In our days, this still happens, but it’s not an official program, but we had something called, because we’re the salvation army, right? So we had street combat. Street combat was going out on the streets, going through the alleys, finding people and cubby holes and stuff and making sure that one, they are not overdosed or dead and seeing if they need help or prayer. And one person, me and my partner, we went and we prayed for this person and they were out of it and we prayed for them and they stood up. Then we had one of the best evangelical conversations a Christian could have. This person on the spot was hungry about knowing about God. We shared, answered all the questions, and then they received the invitation to pray to become a Christian that night. So we were very excited. Then they even wanted to be filled with the Holy Spirit. We were hugging after. Then afterwards we met as a larger group and that person came with us, held hands in our group and gave a little testimony. We said, “Amen,” and it was the best experience ever. Well, two days after I get a phone call and it’s like, “Who is this?” I was like, “This is Jonathan.” I said their name and, “How are you doing now?” And they’re like, “Who are you?” They just did not have any memory of that whole situation. And the reason I tell the story is that person even had my phone number because we are going to enter a discipleship relationship. They are going to come over to my house and come to my cell group, which that actually did happen. But sometimes we have expectations or put more meaning into the experience than it does for the other person. And what we need to do is have an ongoing relationship. And I think we do this with a bunch of our evangelism. It’s actually, Jesus said to go into the world and make disciples, not just converts. But I think that kind of helps. If there’s a listener today, I would say, think about one person. Pray about God to give you an encounter with one person that you could have an ongoing relationship who is more in the margins and who you could discover God’s activity already at work and partner in on that and grow yourself alongside this other person by recognizing their humanity and seeing God’s redemption at play by the Spirit in the world.

Daniel Markin:

Yeah. Realizing, hey, they are made in the image of God, the [foreign language 00:08:21], and that, you just keep hitting on relationship. That’s something that we just always encourage people. It’s about being right relationship with God and the right relationship with people. What we find is that when the relationship with God broke, instantly the relationship between man and woman broke too. Right? But through Christ, right? I love how Colossians says it. He says, Paul writes to us. He says that Christ is the firstborn of all creation. And the way I understand this passage is Paul’s basically saying, you want to know what it means to truly be human? Look to how Christ lived and you see exactly that, him going and having ongoing relationships and telling us, hey, make disciples, not just converts.

Jonathan Evans:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Well, and that’s the other thing is about some of the criticism is, hey, are you just talking about the social gospel, making people’s lives better by things and programs and services? That’s a big part of it. One of my favorite verses in the Bible is John 17:3. It says, “Now this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” So I think union with God is such, well, in my life that’s what keeps me on track is my knowledge of my friend Jesus and by his Spirit, he speaks to me. He makes me whole. He helps me through my worries, my anxieties, my down times, my joys. It’s in knowing Jesus that life is realized and unless we’re actually taking the step of making Jesus a part of the conversation, that’s life in this life and the next to come. So I think that’s where faith-based organizations, well, one is you see a lot more of them here in the downtown East side and I think that’s because the strong biblical command to be involved with the poor, but the other thing is there’s an effective power. I work and have a lot of relationships with guys who have gone through recovery and there’s a distinction I’d make is there’s people who got clean by not doing drugs, but there’s something still missing. But those who meet Jesus and have that completion in the gospel knowing that I’ve done horrible things, but God loves me so much and knowing that ongoing love and support, they’ve recovered. They’re beyond recovery.

Daniel Markin:

Yeah. Their soul is transformed. Their soul is recovered.

Jonathan Evans:

Yeah, and I think comes back to what we were talking about is poverty of spirit, which is what makes us whole, what makes us complete, not so vulnerable and defensive, not trying to complete ourselves. I think that comes from knowing Jesus. I’ve been able to see that in a lot of people’s lives and that’s the other great gift is, well, I think Tozer said something like 90% of what we do in the church can be done on human means. But that’s one of the great things about working in areas and with people who are in the margins is you see miracles. You see things that only God can do and those are great joys. It’s like, no glory to me. It’s like, I didn’t do anything, but I get to see the power of God. When he does that, this is the other thing is they can’t shut up about God because he’s done a great work and so their testimony is bold and their faith is …you know, they still have ups and downs, especially because discipleship can be really tricky when people come from broken paths with lots of drugs and broken relationships, discipleship’s tough, but their fervency in knowing the power of God, they just know. Nobody could convince them that God isn’t real because one they’ve encountered him and they’ve seen his power in their life. I need that. I need to see those things.

Daniel Markin:

Yeah. What’s encouraging to you as well. It’s a reminder that I’m not alone in this, but that God’s actually, he’s the one going before me. What you’re describing reminds me of almost a bicycle, right? Because with a bicycle you have two pedals and you have to pedal both at the same time for the bicycle to really work well. If one pedal is broken and you’re just trying to meet spiritual needs, then you’re lacking on the physical needs and people need that. That’s a way you can actually really help. You can show you care, but if all you give is physical needs, you’re lacking on the spiritual needs, right? It doesn’t work either. It just seems to be there’s a balance. You want the bike to move. You have to peddle both. I think when you see those two things working in harmony, it’s a really beautiful thing because otherwise I think it could become unhelpful.

Jonathan Evans:

Yeah. I think our best relationships are those that are intimate. So I think in my life, the most intimacy I have is when I pray with my wife. There’s an intimacy that happens there, that doesn’t happen. It’s where I’m bearing my soul. This is my deepest fear, my deepest need, my deepest hurt my deepest joy, and when I share that with her, we feel united and complete. I’d say, look what God did in Jesus, he shared his deepest self with us. He revealed his heart. He met our needs. So then that’s also the model of how do we work with the poor? Enter that relationship, enter that bicycle ride of faith and works, and in going deeper with people, we find those relationships to be transformative. A three-bounded cord is not easily broken and when we enter relationships, we find actually God’s there too. He’s strengthening this and strengthening us. Maybe we could talk now about the rich young ruler. There is a part, and especially nowadays where we’re being aware of our white privilege, our young millennialism and what do we need to break that is actually the perspective of another person. So to get beyond our bubbles. You actually need a relationship with someone who is completely different than you, someone who will disagree with you, someone who will call you on your stuff and say, “That doesn’t make sense.” That person probably doesn’t exist in your world right now. So this guy, the rich young ruler he’s called, he goes to Jesus and he says, “What do I have to do to inherit?” So that’s a powerful word. And then Jesus has a banter back with him and he’s like, “Well, what have you done?”

Daniel Markin:

Inherit eternal life, right, is what he says?

Jonathan Evans:

What does the Bible say? And he quotes some of the commandments and then he says, “Hey, one thing you lack …” Actually it says, Jesus. It says, “He looked at him and loved him.” This is the thing is this is actually like you’re going to the doctor, you’ve got cancer and the doctor says, “Hey, I know what’s going to heal you,” kind of advice here. He says, “Sell all you have, give it to the poor and follow me.” The thing is he was sad because he couldn’t do that. His comfort, his physical inheritance held him back from stepping forward into that way of Jesus. So I really don’t think that there’s much of a way to hold onto the things of the world, hold onto the things that we want and still follow Jesus. They’re mutually exclusive from my reading of the Bible.

Daniel Markin:

Yep. Well, and there’s an interesting aspect that I’ve come across in that story too in some of my study is Jesus, as he’s calling people to him, there’s a scene where Jesus we’ll talk about. He says, “Who are my mother and brother?” Right? He says, “These are my mothers,” and he’s pointing to other believers, people who are following him. That’s a really shocking moment because Jesus is saying, “I have a biological family,” which in the ancient world, your strong group, that’s unbreakable. The family’s the most important thing. Your biological brothers and sisters are more important in the ancient world than your spouses. That’s difficult for us to grab, but when Jesus says, “Hey, guess what? These followers of me, these other Christians are more important than my biological family,” that is crazy. So one of the things Christ is saying is give all that up and use that money and give it to your brothers and sisters who are in need. He’s not willing to make that jump. Maybe that’s an interesting place to jump in because I don’t know if a lot of Christians are willing to do that with their own money, time, efforts, relationships, to be seeing the low and the marginalized as actually, no, this is part of your family if you call yourself a Christian and we can tend to neglect that aspect of the family. Does that make sense where I was going with that and does any of that resonate with you?

Jonathan Evans:

Really resonates with me and look, I’m a boomer, okay? So don’t say boomer about this, but so we’re doing a COVID relief. We’re doing lots of hampers where we’re seeing hundreds of people every day come to the Salvation Army and get food, support, gift cards for grocery stores to support, and people who you’d never thought, “Hey, I’m going to need a handout. I’m going to need the Salvation Army’s help.” They’re coming to us now. So we need a lot of help doing this. What’s been surprising to me is, and this is the critique of millennials, right, is they’re lazy. They put themselves first. There’s always exceptions, but this is what happened two weeks ago. We had a group of guys, they’re not in school and stuff. They’re actually getting paid by the government to volunteer for us, but they didn’t come and they didn’t call. So we followed up. My friend followed up with them and it was like, “Oh yeah, well, we stayed up the night before so we couldn’t come in.” And they said, “I don’t want to get burnt out.” But it was really just putting, I was off put. I was disappointed because people who gave me their word that they were going to help out other people decided, well, what I want is more important than that. I just thought this is not … Who’s teaching them to fulfill responsibilities? I’m not old enough to be their parent, but I was like, there’s a generational divide here. That’s why I think that rich young ruler story is so important today because we, and my kids always talk about history and stuff, and I’m like, “Hey, one thing we want to make sure that you guys know is you are the richest of all time. The richest person 100 years ago, doesn’t have what you have. 100 years ago you would be the richest person in the world.” So what do we do with our privilege? What do we do with the things that we love? The thing is to live your life, you need to lose it. The thing that you are holding onto is stopping you from being who you can become. We see this in Jesus. He was empty-handed, so empty-handed he could put his hands empty on a cross. Well, do likewise, that to truly follow Jesus is to not to hold onto the world and not have the world hold onto us. It’s materials, it’s agendas, it’s thoughts and philosophies. In fact, I could say being a Christian or following Jesus is all about living in freedom. And the thing that we need to be free from is the thing we love the most.

Daniel Markin:

Right. Those idols in our life that we, whether that be money or relationships or status, beauty, you name it.

Jonathan Evans:

Yeah. And why? Because those things we’re tempted to form our identity or to prove our existence with those things. But the only thing that proves our existence for the Christian is the voice of Jesus. “You’re my son. You’re my daughter. I love you. I died for you. I dwell with you.” Paying attention to that voice, that’s the real self. All the other stuff, that’s false self that we should run away from.

Daniel Markin:

Well, those are that if you build your identity on those, they will fail you. They always do. And I love what you were saying. Jesus, he comes in with nothing so that his hands can be nailed to a cross spread out. Well, more than that, he was stripped naked, right? They took his clothes and he did that for us. He gave up not only his physical-ness, he’s put on display, he’s shamed, he’s brutally murdered, and on a spiritual level, he’s abandoned by God in that moment on the cross. And he does that for us. So when you really let that melt your heart, you realize he did that for you, that changes everything. And you can finally be like, “What couldn’t I give? He gave me his life. He gave everything. How could I not also give as much as I can in return?” I think a true follower of Jesus says, “What wouldn’t I do? When my master calls, what wouldn’t I do?”

Jonathan Evans:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Well, I think in that point, Jesus’ abandonment, and that’s a really good point is sometimes the things that we let go, it’s not like I actually chose to let those things. Some things are taken from us. That draws me to the Beatitudes. Actually this is the way of life. I used to read these and I’d interpret them like, “Oh,” because I was just so entrenched with Jesus wants me to have a productive, rich, comfortable life. But I actually found out the way of following Jesus is down, downward mobility, letting go. There’s a lot of suffering in that because that’s who I’m following is the suffering servant. He does put good things in our life, but at the cross he quotes Psalm 22. “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” The thing is to read that whole Psalm. It’s actually in that point where Jesus has everything taken from him, even his breath. He has the fullest and most sense of faith and hope that his Father, he knew he would be resurrected. He knew what God was accomplishing and he was fully united with the Father’s purpose and activity in the world in that sacrificial giving. So how does that relate to us? It’s actually when we’re willing to let go, when we’re willing to have things and rejoice that we’re persecuted or when people say bad things about us or when we’re mourning or when we’re poor in spirit, it says we’re blessed. Or we’re being like Jesus is probably the best translation of that. You’re living into the life of Jesus when you’re experiencing these things. Why? Because the only thing you can hold onto is hope and faith and all you have is that still small voice. God’s, “You’re doing the right thing.” That’s when your enemies are loud or nobody’s supporting you. And where do we find those places? With the poor, so there’s a great avenue to transformation growth, to know Jesus better. That’s really what this should be about. It’s not proving, doing things. So God would love us. It’s actually like, I’m discovering Jesus here.

Daniel Markin:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Well, when we come in for landing here, Jonathan, let me ask you, what is one thing as you look at young adults engaging the poor that frustrates you, that you would want to see changed? Then what is one thing that excites you about young adults who want to see change?

Jonathan Evans:

Yeah. The thing that hurts, and it’s really because I know that they’re not living their fullness, is when they’re inconsistent, they’re not committed, they’re not devoted and they’re trying to get something from their activity. Some badge, something. A good social media post. [inaudible 00:25:30] this for recognition and stuff is like, oh, that kind of makes me feel bad, but I don’t, I’m not angry. I just feel like this narcissistic way of giving to others. It’s not about that. And I think that a lot of people would say, well, “Yeah, because you’re only seeing the stuff that people post and stuff.” So that’s one side. The thing that really excites me is how talented, educated, where people could enter careers or fields and make six figures, but they’ve given that up because they’ve heard Jesus’ invitation to say work in the Salvation Army or other non-profits that are Christian, or maybe as a school teacher or … When people find their vocation and they give things up to follow Jesus and they find agency, they find God’s work in that. They find fulfillment. I like this Frederick Buechner quote, which is, “The place where God calls you is where the world’s deep hunger and your passion intersect.” I see that all the time because of where I work and I go, “Man, these are great people and they’re not in it for a job. This is their vocation.”

Daniel Markin:

I love that. Well, Jonathan, thank you for your time. Thank you for your passion and the work you’re doing.

Jonathan Evans:

Thank you. It’s been a pleasure. You’re a great podcast host.

Daniel Markin:

You’re too kind.

Erika:

Thanks so much for listening to part two of the conversation with Jonathan Evans. We’re so grateful to Jonathan for joining us these last couple of weeks, and we hope you’ve been inspired to reexamine your own biases against the poor in your communities. If you’d like to learn more about Jonathan and the Salvation Army, you can check out salvationarmyvancouver.com. We’ll have it linked on the episode page on our website. If you’ve been enjoying the indoubt Podcast, we’d love to hear from you. Shoot us a message on social media. We’re on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter, or send us an email to info@indoubt.ca letting us know how indoubt has shaped your worldview or answered some of the toughest questions that life has thrown at you. We’re all about community here at indoubt, so feel free to connect with us. And we can’t wait for you to join us next week as Daniel is back with Dr. Josh Cruz, a psychologist who will be discussing the differences between Christians and non-Christians when it comes to conversations about our mental health. Thanks again for joining us for another episode of indoubt.

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