Ep. 245: How I Forgave My Abuser

Daniel Markin:

Hey, welcome to indoubt. My name’s Daniel Markin, and welcome back to the program. Today we have a awesome conversation with Erin Ford who works with Power to Change, she writes for the Gospel Coalition, Canada, and we’re talking about abuse and forgiveness. Erin, it’s good to have you here on the show, thank you for spending time with us and entering into this discussion with myself. Erin, why don’t you tell our audience a little bit about who you are, where you came from, what’s your story?

Erin Ford:

Yeah, that’s good. So, my name is Erin, I live in Guelph, Ontario, which is kind of a smaller town, about an hour outside of Toronto. And I work for a Christian ministry in Canada called Power to Change Students, and so I’m the editorial manager for our blog across Canada. And I’ve been on staff with them for about six years. I’m recently married, this year- and I grew up in Barrie, Ontario. So, predominantly to a non-Christian family, although I had some exposure going to church, Sunday school as a kid, going to some Christian summer camps. And so, I actually became a Christian at a Christian summer camp. And had Christian friends in high school and then got involved with Power to Change Students when I went to university. I went to the University of Guelph and now I work in ministry. So, I also am in seminary part time, working on a masters, so that’s fun.

Daniel Markin:

Where at?

Erin Ford:

Heritage in Cambridge.

Daniel Markin:

Cool.

Erin Ford:

So, my husband also works on staff with Power to Change Students. So, we’re both in ministry, do a lot of ministry with international students and national students in our city and so, that’s pretty much it.

Daniel Markin:

You’re newly married, how did you and your husband meet?

Erin Ford:

We actually met on staff and it’s so funny because we both went to the same university at the same time but never met because we were in different Christian clubs. So, my husband is actually from Hong Kong, so he was raised in Hong Kong. So, he’s Cantonese and he was involved in Asian Christian Fellowship on our university and I was involved with Power to Change Students. So, he actually joined staff with Power to Change when he graduated and so we work together, he was a photographer at the time and I was doing journalism, and so we were paired up to do interviews on different mission trips and conferences. And so, we developed our friendship that way, but we got married October, 2019, so almost 11 months. And it’s been an interesting year to be married or just get married during COVID. We’ve spent probably almost every day together 24/7, working from home, working together. It’s fast tracked our first year of marriage, it feels we’ve been married for three years And it’s definitely brought us closer together and strengthened our marriage for sure, we’re so thankful.

Daniel Markin:

Absolutely. I want to kind of begin with that and start with something light because we do have a kind of a heavier topic that we’re going to be talking about today, because we’re talking about abuse and then we’re talking about forgiveness, and much of this coming through the story that you are going to be sharing kind of about your life and some of your experience. And so, why don’t we start there, if you can tell us a little bit about your background and this story of abuse that you have come through.

Erin Ford:

Yeah. So, I grew up in a smaller family, I have one sister, and my dad was always addicted to alcohol. So, that was his kind of main issue, although he probably also has some undiagnosed mental health issues as well. And he was really abusive. My parents separated when I was five, divorced when I was six, and he was just a really angry and I would say really tormented person. And he was really abusive verbally, mentally. So, mental, psychological abuse, emotional abuse and really controlling. Basically, thought he was always the victim, the world was out to get him and really struggled with the fact that he didn’t have custody. So, I basically grew up spending every other weekend with him. So, those were his visitation rights, which is pretty average for a divorced family. So, my mom had full custody, we would spend every other weekend with him. And really in the context of those weekends, would experience a lot of emotional abuse, mental abuse, a lot of over the years, intimidation, manipulation. And honestly, things at the time, obviously as a kid you don’t know how to process what you’re experiencing. You just kind of go into survival mode. And so, I did that and for me… You kind of know something’s wrong. I think kids are so intuitive, kids know when something’s not right. And so, I kind of always knew something is not right here, I never felt I could really fully trust my dad, but I loved him so deeply. I was first born, totally a daddy’s girl, wanted his approval. And I think what also shaped my childhood and it’s really common for people who experience abuse, you can’t fully see the situation for what it is when you’re in it. I think when you see someone who’s in an abusive relationship on the outside, it seems so obvious and you’re like, “What is that person doing? Why are they doing this? Or why are they in this relationship? Or why are they allowing this person to treat them that way?” But for the person on the inside, so for myself, I always assumed, okay, well, next time it’s going to be better, or he’s just feeling X, Y, Z and the next time we have a phone call, it’s going to be better or whatever. But it never was, it just over time got worse and worse and worse, and he just grew angrier and angrier at life. And I think when I was 16… I mean, what happened, we had a restraining order and he wasn’t allowed to come see us. Sometimes I would talk to him on the phone and he would just be so angry all the time, and it made me angry. When I was in high school, I just felt angry. I knew something was wrong, but eventually when I was 16, we had this really terrible phone call and it resulted in him kind of off the cuff threatening to kill us with a gun, which was crazy-

Daniel Markin:

Wow.

Erin Ford:

… Just totally inappropriate. And I think once that happened, my mom kind of stepped in and she was like, “Okay, we’re done.” She was always like, “I want to support you. If you want to have a relationship with him, I want to try and be a supportive presence and be a help, be an aid, but also maintain those healthy boundaries.” And so, when that happened, it was like, “Okay, line has been crossed and we need to pull the plug on this.” So, I was done, we reported it to the police, we didn’t press charges at the time because I just had a lot of anxiety about… So, when you press charges you have to appear before a judge, and I was 16 and I was like, “I’m not doing that.” It just was way too intimidating for me. So, we agreed, okay, we won’t press charges, if he makes another threat, we’ll press charges, so we just reported it. And then basically that kind of started my healing journey when I went to university. It wasn’t until first year university when I actually realized that my childhood experiences were abusive. And kind of God started that healing process in my heart through several years. And I’ve spent half my life in counseling. So, I would say my experience with abuse is mostly in the context with my dad and kind of growing and healing since I’ve been 16, I guess.

Daniel Markin:

Wow. I mean, thank you for sharing that. And I can’t imagine what that was like growing up because you want… And you picked up on something there, that is, you wanted to have a relationship there, but it seemed it was one sided. There was this, you desiring to make this relationship work, but his, whether it was mental health or just this abusive tendency, just to not want that at all.

Erin Ford:

Yeah.

Daniel Markin:

Let me ask you this and to just clarify, if you were to define abuse, how would you define it? But then because you mentioned this healing process, can you explain then define what is forgiveness? And maybe we can kind of go that way.

Erin Ford:

Yeah. So, I mean, abuse, a really, really basic definition is whenever a person treats another human being or an animal with cruelty or violence, especially when it’s repeated, it’s not just a one-time mack, but it’s an ongoing thing. And so, I think a lot of people when they hear abuse, they think of physical abuse first and I think that’s the… One of the most obvious signs of abuse is domestic violence, which unfortunately is a huge problem in Canada, especially during COVID. I think the rates of domestic violence have increased with families being trapped at home really.

Daniel Markin:

Yeah.

Erin Ford:

I mean, I think about COVID and I’m like, “I’m so thankful to God that it’s happening now in my life and not when I was a child. I couldn’t imagine being in that kind of an unhealthy situation.” So, that’s one main type of abuse. There’s also obviously sexual abuse, which is also prevalent and common as well. And then there’s the psychological or emotional abuse, which I think was more of my experience. And that’s harder to identify because the person who’s often being abused is… It doesn’t seem very obvious sometimes. It’s kind of more subtle, can come out with manipulation or coercion or threats. And then there’s also financial abuse. So, where you kind of control a person using money and they don’t have any autonomy or freedom or self-will. Then there’s obviously modern slavery, human trafficking, which is obviously abusive on several levels. And then there’s discrimination, so like racism or whatever, which can also be viewed as a form of abuse. So, I would say there’s a lot of different levels and types of abuse, but I would say that the psychological and emotional abuse can be probably really prevalent, but hard to identify. So, yeah.

Daniel Markin:

Especially because it becomes normal and that’s just normal life-

Erin Ford:

Totally.

Daniel Markin:

… And you can think about you growing up as a kid, be like, “Well, that’s just my relationship with my dad. That’s how I know things are. Some people have really happy dads, I don’t,” and little did you know that you’re in an abusive relationship there.

Erin Ford:

Yeah. And little did I know that I didn’t have to be.

Daniel Markin:

Yeah.

Erin Ford:

I mean, as a kid, my mom in doing the best she could gave me a lot of freedom to make decisions about what I wanted, but as a kid, I almost didn’t even know what I needed or what I wanted. It’s hard to, as a kid, make a decision and know this is the best for me when you’re trapped in something and you can’t quite see it clearly. So, I have thought about this, would it have been better if I had never had a relationship with him or if my mom had kind of prevented that earlier on? And maybe. But I also see how God has really worked through it as well and taught me a lot and gives me an opportunity now to speak out about it and talk about it and share my experience and kind of share kind of the process that God has done in my life through it. So, I don’t necessarily regret it, although it had huge ramifications for my life. So, yeah.

Daniel Markin:

Totally. I mean, you’d probably say you wish it didn’t have to happen like that, but now when on the other side of it, you see it and well, God did use that, right?

Erin Ford:

Yeah. And he was-

Daniel Markin:

And his sovereignty allowed that and used it.

Erin Ford:

Yeah. And he was very present in the midst of it, very present in the midst of it. And honestly, I see acts of grace. I see what I experienced as a kid and I’m like, “Oh my goodness, God’s grace prevented so much more.” You think about abuse or you think about sin or brokenness, and you’re like, “Wow, it could have been 10 times worse.”

Daniel Markin:

Totally.

Erin Ford:

So, I’m thankful for what it was and not what it could have been. So, there’s that element too. But I really like your question about what forgiveness is. Especially in light of abuse, it’s really hard, or even just regular relationships, it’s really hard to kind of wrap our heads around what does forgiveness actually entail? It seems this really great idea we see in the Bible and it’s okay, but what does that actually mean? And I think ultimately this definition of forgiveness that I found helpful was that it’s a conscious deliberate decision to release feelings of resentment or vengeance toward a person who has harmed you. I kind of picture it as, I kind of sitting on one side of the room and God’s sitting on the other, and what this person has done to me is kind of this huge boulder, this huge rock in front of my face and it’s kind of oppressing me and pushing me down. And forgiveness or surrender or letting go is me kind of pushing it over towards God for him to hold instead of me. It’s releasing those feelings of bitterness and vengeance and resentment towards that person that has hurt you. And I find it’s really helpful when I think that forgiveness involves several things. So, the first thing is that it involves confession, which is acknowledging what that person did before God and agreeing that it was not okay. So, when we confess our sins to God we acknowledge what I’ve done before God, and I agree that was wrong. I confess that what I did, this sinful act or this thought or whatever was wrong before God and it wasn’t okay. And so, I think when we forgive, we need to acknowledge that whatever happened wasn’t okay, it was wrong. It wasn’t just personality or it wasn’t just whatever, we have to confess that it was wrong and also surrender. So, we push the pain of their sin or abuse over to God who carries it for us on the cross. And I know we’ll get to that later about the role of the cross in this process. And then letting go our desire for vengeance, which is ultimately kind of that eye for an eye, I want to get back to the person what they’ve done to me, and we need to kind of surrender that to the Lord as well. So, that’s how I would describe forgiveness.

Daniel Markin:

I really appreciate those definitions. Also, the confession piece, I had never thought of that. I’ve often thought about sin like a grenade and people who are caught in their sin, the grenade goes off and it hits everyone around them-

Erin Ford:

Totally.

Daniel Markin:

… Oftentimes we just think about our own sin and how it affects others, but also if you’re the person who the grenade shrapnel has hit, we are to forgive those who hit us with the shrapnel, understanding that we are in a sinful world, that is a simple broken person even if they’re a Christian, they’re still broken and set in this world of sin. And that this is something that’s not an option in the Christian life, that forgiveness isn’t something that you can choose to extend to some and choose not to extend with others, because I want to share this passages I was preparing, which is from one of the most famous passages in the Bible. And it’s Jesus teaching how to pray in Matthew chapter six, I’ll start reading in verse seven, he says… Because he commands us to forgive, but it’s a haunting passage-

Erin Ford:

Totally.

Daniel Markin:

… Verse seven, he says, “When you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words. Do not be like them for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. Pray then like this: Our father who art in heaven, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our debts as we have also forgiven our debtors.” And so there’s that forgiveness piece. “And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.” And oftentimes we’ll kind of close the Bible and we’ll say, “That’s the Lord’s Prayer,” isn’t that nice?

Erin Ford:

Yeah.

Daniel Markin:

But when you look in verse 14, “For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you; but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” In other words, as a Christian forgiveness is not optional.

Erin Ford:

Yeah, I agree. It’s also here we see that forgiveness is also conditional. God’s forgiveness of us is conditional in our willingness to forgive others. But I think what makes me feel hopeful about that is that it doesn’t say it here, but if we look across scripture, God does not leave us on our own power to have to… We don’t have to forgive other people based on our own power. God through his holy spirit empowers us to actually forgive others. It’s actually the work of Christ in me that I can then forgive. So, it seems this really intimidating thing where, okay, well, if I don’t forgive people or if I feel I can’t forgive people, is God not going to forgive me? And that can seem like a very workspace righteousness approach, where I think more it’s, no, no, through Christ in me, through the power of the holy spirit, I receive a new heart, I receive a new self and I actually have access to God’s power to forgive on his behalf, not on mine. On my own behalf I don’t want to do nothing, but… Yeah.

Daniel Markin:

Totally. You want justice, right?

Erin Ford:

Yeah.

Daniel Markin:

And sometimes we think that justice is, well, I want that person to stew and feel the brokenness that I feel. So, I want to either allow them to sit in the… When I let them know that I’ve heard them, I want them to feel that. And part of forgiveness is understanding that even if we don’t see it in this life, justice and vengeance belongs to God and God will actually do what is right in the end. He will judge them for those actions, which in one sense it’s terrifying, we should be praying for those people to see their sin, but it also brings deep peace, the fact that it’s unsettling that Jesus is also a judge, it’s not just the hugs and muffins messiah, where we get to bring our burdens to him. No, he will judge the living and the dead. But that actually brings peace to the believer because we can just give it to him. Like you said, that rock, you just give to him, so you deal with it, because you will deal with it better than I ever could.

Erin Ford:

Yeah. And I think with justice, there’s two ways justices can be accomplished. So, there’s justice on earth, through our justice system, which actually has a lot of biblical foundations in it actually. And so, I think that we can always pursue earthly justice if possible. Now, sometimes the person who has abused us has died and we can’t pursue justice because they’re gone. Or sometimes it’s impossible because you were attacked or something, you don’t know the person or there’s all these different circumstances, but I think on earth, we are to always pursue justice of having that person held accountable for what they’ve done and entrusting justice to our court system, which hopefully is fair and righteous. But ultimately, there’s also an eternal justice where God will hold everybody accountable for what they’ve done. And I think you’re right, it is super sobering, I don’t want anybody to spend eternity separated from God because of their actions, but I also want people to be held accountable for what they’ve done because it was wrong. So, I think about someone like Jeffrey Epstein and I mean, he’s dead from whatever reason, if it was himself or someone else-

Daniel Markin:

Yeah, that’s another podcast.

Erin Ford:

… Yeah. I don’t know what that conversation was like between Jeffrey Epstein and God, but I know that God will hold him accountable for all of the abusive and inappropriate things that he did. Now, I don’t know where he is now, if he’s with God or not, but I know that God will hold him accountable. And I think that even though unfortunately his victims or the survivors did not get to hold earthly justice, there is an eternal justice and ultimately vengeance is in God’s hands and we are to never, ever bring closure on vengeance. So, vengeance is like, “Oh, I want to pay that person back.” I would say justice is a bit different where I want that person to be held accountable for what they’ve done, vengeance is like, “Oh, you hurt me, I want you to be hurt.” It’s kind of like that.

Daniel Markin:

Yeah. Vengeance is a personal vendetta for this person, justice I think is more, you want things to be made right.

Erin Ford:

To be me right. Yeah, totally. Yeah, that’s a great way to say it. And I think that it’s… I mean, only God is able to forgive even our sins against him because justice was perfectly fulfilled on the cross when Jesus died in our place. So, it’s on the one hand, well, justice has already been fulfilled on the cross, and so God is a God of true and perfect justice. And like you said, that gives a lot of peace, because if I put my faith in Jesus, I don’t need to feel scared about my interaction with God when I see him when I die, because Jesus’ blood purifies me and has paid the price for me. But he also invites us to trust that one day there will come a day when God will bring justice and vengeance on our behalf when Jesus returns and ultimately defeat Satan and demons and evil forever, which will be a great day of celebration.

Daniel Markin:

It will be.

Erin Ford:

But it is not today yet. So, I just am really encouraged by Romans chapter 12, because Paul writes that, “Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, ‘Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.'” And then he actually says on the contrary, feed your enemy, give your enemy something to drink. We’re actually to love and serve even our enemies, but in trusting that God will enact perfect justice. And it brings a holy reverence, so I’m thankful for that.

Daniel Markin:

Totally. Well, we’re coming to kind of the close here of our time. I have one last question. And you mentioned earlier about sometimes justice seems impossible. Sometimes we get justice in this life, sometimes we don’t. But sometimes it feels impossible to forgive someone. Could you please share with us, what do we do when it feels impossible to forgive someone? How do we begin to even begin to do that?

Erin Ford:

Yeah. I would say with my dad for so many years it felt impossible to forgive. I think I was just where I was in my healing journey. I was processing a lot and I think forgiveness can be a very long-term thing, and it’s not just a one-time decision, it’s an ongoing every day decision. I really love actually in Mark nine, the doubter’s prayer. So, Jesus is interacting with this father who has a sick child, and basically their father proclaims to Jesus, Lord, I believe, help my unbelief. So, that’s considered the doubter’s prayer, and I really think we could apply this to a heart struggling with forgiveness, praying like, “Lord, I want to forgive, help my unforgiveness.” We’re really asking God, change my heart to a heart that is willing and wanting to forgive this person. Sometimes we need a heart change of even desire. It’s natural to not desire forgiveness. That’s our natural human state and so it is a supernatural work of the holy spirit to have a heart that wants to forgive. And the reality is that forgiveness comes at a deep personal cost to ourselves and it’s incredibly painful. And I actually think that the depth of the pain of forgiveness is in direct relation to the depth of the pain of the sin against us. So, when the sin against us is really deep, forgiveness feels really hard. And actually I wanted to add something about just what forgiveness is not, because I think this is really helpful. And I found this with my dad too, this was really true, that forgiveness wasn’t tolerating. It wasn’t saying what that person did was okay. And it wasn’t forgetting, it wasn’t forgetting what happened like, “Oh, okay, I’m just going to sweep it under the rug and pretend like it didn’t happen.” And it’s not minimizing. It’s not minimizing how we feel and it’s not minimizing the action done against us. And it’s not repeating behavior. So, it’s not saying, “Oh, I forgive you, but yes, please keep repeating your behavior towards me.” That’s not what forgiveness is. And what is true of my dad, and I can be honest about this, is that forgiveness is not relational restoration. They’re totally different. So, I can choose to forgive my dad between me and the Lord and between me and him, but I have no desire to have a restored relationship with him at this point. So, because I don’t talk to him, but as far as I know, from what I’ve heard, his life has not changed, he is still the same bitter angry person, if not more so since the last time I’ve interacted with him. So, on this side of attorney, I may never have a restored relationship with him unless by some miracle, the grace of God, but that’s okay. That’s not necessarily a requirement of forgiveness to have that restoration, and I think that’s really important distinction. Sometimes people say, “Oh, I really just want you to forgive me.” And what they mean is, I want that relationship back to what it was, but sometimes it’s impossible, because there’s consequences to sin and a huge consequence to sin is broken relationship. And sometimes it takes a really, really long time for that relationship to be restored. But in the process, we can still choose to release those feelings of anger and bitterness towards them and choose to forgive them. And so, when it feels impossible, we can actually ask God’s help to forgive, which I think is so powerful. For God to forgive us, it came at such a deep personal cost, it literally cost Jesus his life on the cross. There is a death involved when we forgive and there is a cost. And so I think that’s intimidating, it’s painful, it should be done over a long period of time. It’s kind of a daily thing and there’s not a timeline. So, Jesus never says we need to forgive somebody in 10 minutes or even in 10 years. I think it’s a process and it’s messy and so-

Daniel Markin:

And it’s a heart posture, right?

Erin Ford:

Yeah.

Daniel Markin:

It’s a heart posture of forgiveness even if the emotions don’t feel there, it’s, Lord, I’m giving this to you and I’m doing my best.

Erin Ford:

Yeah, I know. It is a heart posture. I have thought about if there’s some way, if I should try to communicate with my dad and reach out to him and communicate that I seek to try to forgive him. I don’t know if I’ll get an opportunity one day for that, I might, but honestly, trying to get ahold of him it’s probably really hard. I don’t even really know anything about him at this point. But it is a heart posture and it’s only a heart posture that the holy spirit can provide, it’s not something we can measure up on our own. And I think when we release that to God and kind of just accept the fact that on my own strength I’ll never be able to forgive, that’s when God can step in and we can see him at work in our lives in a really powerful way. So, it’s definitely a fruit of the spirit.

Daniel Markin:

100%. Well, Erin, listen, this has been an amazing conversation and we could probably keep going and going and going. We’re going to have to definitely have you back on the program to be able to just unpack a little bit more of what it means to have forgiveness, to be forgiving to even when someone comes to us. Next time we can talk about if they ask for forgiveness, how do we forgive them-

Erin Ford:

Totally.

Daniel Markin:

… And then how do we ask for forgiveness. I mean, there’s so many different angles, but we really appreciate your time and thank you for joining us.

Erin Ford:

Thank you so much. This has been so great, I can’t wait for next time.