Ep. 247: Fearless Not Foolish

Speaker 1:

Welcome to the indoubt Podcast where we explore the challenging topics that young adults often face. Each week we talk with guests who help answer questions of faith, life, and culture, connecting them to our daily experiences and God’s word. For more info on indoubt, visit indoubt.ca or indoubt.com.

Isaac Dagneau:

Hey, welcome to indoubt. My name is Isaac. I’m one of the hosts at indoubt and I’m also pastor at North Valley Baptist Church in Mission, BC. With us today, we have two people with us which is unusual but it’s awesome. We have Care Baldwin. She is a radio personality at CHRI Radio Station in Ottawa. Super grateful and thankful to have you with us today, Care.

Care Baldwin:

Thanks for having me.

Isaac Dagneau:

Also, someone that, if you are regular listener to indoubt, you’ll know Daniel. Daniel is with us. He’s another host of indoubt and he now works at Westside Church in Vancouver as formally as associate minister, but he’s helping out with this first impressions in the church and also helping out with young adults. It’s great to have you with us as well, Daniel.

Daniel Markin:

Good to be here doing an episode with you, Isaac. It’s not often that we get to do stuff. I feel like I hear your voice either on podcast or once every time we record one of these. This is a good moment.

Isaac Dagneau:

I know. It’s good. It’s very good. It’s awesome. I mean, as listeners, you guys know about Daniel so you guys were like, oh yeah, Daniel. We’ve been there, done that, but Care. Do you mind just sharing with us a little bit about who you are so that listeners actually get an idea of this voice that they’re listening to?

Care Baldwin:

Yeah, absolutely. I am the Afternoon drive host at CHRI Radio. We’re in Ottawa, Canada’s capital. Actually, we play indoubt and Back To The Bible on our station. It’s really cool to have this kind of crossover time right now. But yeah, I just really strive for encouraging listeners on their drive home after work, and just keep things positive and informative and enlightened, happy, and really trying to just encourage people to have a good, positive outlook on their day and on their life. Just have that hope in Jesus and try to make that clear through the airwaves of what I do here. I am a new mom. I have an almost one year old. My husband and I are learning as we go.

Care Baldwin:

It’s been a very strange season having a newborn during COVID because we expected things to look very differently. We expected to have a bit more of a tribe around us. We’ve been doing great with our immediate family, but obviously there’s still people that haven’t even met him yet, which is just crazy. I also lead worship at our local church.

Isaac Dagneau:

That’s awesome. What’s your abridged version of your faith story? How did you know and meet Jesus?

Care Baldwin:

I mean, I don’t have a very dramatic testimony. I remember when I was actually younger, I used to feel a little hard on myself. Like, man, I don’t have one of those big cool stories to tell, but then I realized that’s not how God works necessarily. We don’t have to shock people with our stories. God works individually in our own hearts and our stories are worth telling. Mine honestly, it was almost a slow build, I think. Our family, my parents specifically were at a huge conference like a business rally and they did an altar call and it was so cliché. They went forward for the altar call and then they came home after the conference and they’re like, guess what? We’re followers of Jesus, we’re born again. We’re like, what does that mean? We were always very close with our parents even though we didn’t grow up in the church. I think my parents just had good family values when they were raised and they instilled those in our life.

Care Baldwin:

It didn’t seem all that crazy, I guess, for us to feel like, all right, as a family, we’re going to start looking for a church. We did. We started hunting these conference. They’d said, the first thing you need to do is get a Bible and find a Bible teaching church. We church shopped for what felt like a year and that’s a whole other story. But when we eventually found one that felt like home, I very quickly started becoming part of the worship ministry. I grew up following my dad who has a background in film and television production and in music. I had a love of music and for performing and for theater, which I’m still very involved in in our community. I think at the time I wanted to get involved in worship ministry because it would give me a chance to sing and to perform. That was what my attitude, my perspective was at the time.

Care Baldwin:

I’m so thankful to have had worship leaders then that really allowed me to participate, but also really discipled me through it. I very quickly learnt that my gifts and my singing was actually an offering. It was a gift that God had given me and that I was to actually use it as an offering back to him. My faith actually grew through being able to sing and understanding what worship really is. Fast forward probably a year or two, and our family all got baptized together. This was around early high school for me. Some might say I’m a new Christian because a lot of people actually were born going to church, but for me it was high school age.

Isaac Dagneau:

No, that’s awesome. Thanks for sharing that, Care. That’s so good. As we have this discussion here, just for listeners to know, this is definitely like just a round table conversation and you just get to listen in. Obviously, we would love to hear your feedback too online and things like that. But yeah, this is definitely just a round table conversation with different views and obviously encouraging one another as well in terms of just various things that are going on in our world today. There’s two maybe conversations which maybe there are some overlap as well, but one of the things that we want to hit on is just the reality of the world that we live in right now. It’s the one thing that bridges every continent, country, people together right now and that is the reality of this COVID-19, of this pandemic.

Isaac Dagneau:

We don’t really want to talk about that because I’m sure that none of us are scientists or anything like that, but we are all ministers. We are all priests and we’re all specifically in ministry. Care in radio, Christian radio ministry. Daniel and I in local church ministry, but Care also local church ministry working with your music ministry. With that perspective as well. Just to lay it on the table, I think it’s important also that as you listen and even between us three, there might be some different views and that’s okay. I think one of the biggest things right now that COVID-19 is doing, and we can maybe just start with this, the idea and not just the idea but the reality of disunity and unity in the church because of COVID-19.

Isaac Dagneau:

I just, at least my heart is that I don’t want anything in regards to COVID-19 and the church to conjure up disunity for the sake of it, for the sake of personal rights and freedoms or anything like that. Maybe we can start there. What is your guys’ perspective on COVID-19 in the church not necessarily producing but causing ideas of two sides and disunity and unity, things like that. How about we start there?

Care Baldwin:

I mean, you’ve already alluded to it. Everyone’s got a different opinion and I think every church is going to be different. I think the question is, or should I say there’s two sides of it, right? There’s this disunity among churches. Every church has their own rules. Some of them are really protesting this right to gather and what that looks like. But then I think the other side of it is within your individual congregation, you have some difference of opinions as well. Our church has a task force that we’ve set up to help discern what the next steps should be at each step along the way. I wish I could quote the person or reference them, but we watched a little webinar, a little podcast that was basically saying, you go through seasons, you go through storms, but this is really like an era like we look at it as a bigger, longer term pivot when it comes to the changes that we implement as a church.

Care Baldwin:

I think naturally people are going to have different opinions of that. Right now, what we’re wrestling with is we have these small to medium sized home groups. We’re encouraging people to view online services in that context. Is there a point to rushing to meeting in person as a large group gathering? But then you have those people who are not connected to a small group. You’ve almost ignored the sojourner, you almost ignored the occasional visitor attender. You’re only focusing on those regulars that are really plugged in. I don’t know. Yes. I think it’s really important to stick with them, to engage them and to continue the discipleship, but at the cost of not being able to bring in and to disciple the newer people. I think that’s where a lot of the challenge and the divide happens is like, where should we put our priorities? Do we do what we’re doing to focus on…

Care Baldwin:

We don’t want to lose our existing members or is it like what about people who… I mean, we know there’s more and more people right now who are looking for hope and God and answers. Are they getting reached the way that they should? I think there’s that difference in divide as well.

Isaac Dagneau:

No, for sure. It’s hard. I think that when we look at scripture too, we see Paul’s emphasis to like, he wants the church… I think about the church in Philippians 1:27 like, I want you to strive like side by side for the faith. I don’t know how to say their names. Euodia and Syntyche, to agree in the Lord. Like there’s this emphasis that he wants that unity in the midst of this, in the midst of it. I just think it’s important for just us as all church leaders and for listeners as well, that there’s a lot of talk on your own personal rights, your own personal freedoms. I don’t like the feeling of a mask, or I think we can all meet. It’s all overblown, COVID is all overblown.

Isaac Dagneau:

All these various things that are being said. It’s like, we can amp up in what we’ve read and what we’ve heard. We just want to go and evangelize what we’ve read and what we’ve heard. We totally miss out what really, I think, matters. We have a specific just as leaders in the church, we have a specific responsibility to lay that down and really promote unity so that we are striving side by side so that the Euodias and Syntyche in our churches, maybe it’s even us, agree. Agree. Yeah, that means agreeing to disagree when it comes to maybe some practical realities, but agreeing on the fact that we need to uphold our unity at all costs.

Daniel Markin:

I was going to say, I like your point about, Care, about the sojourner because one of the things I really appreciate about Westside being new on staff there is we’ve just started opening up our building. We’ve just started having services. One of the unique things is obviously you have all these different zones. You’re trying to be careful about how many people are entering the building. One of the big reasons that Westside has been so careful about that is because we have lots of people who just wander down the street and who will walk in the building, right? They’re checking it out. It’s not uncommon for someone to show up to church and say, hey, I’m not a Christian, but I mean, living in downtown Vancouver, they live in this glass box. They live in their apartment. They work from home now because of COVID. They order, skip the dishes to their house. They are not getting out. They’re not getting to know people. They are just so hungry for community.

Daniel Markin:

It seems to me that as you look through the scriptures, we gather as the church, yes, to hear the word preach, to partake of the sacraments, to spend time in communion, to spend time seeing people get baptized and praying together. But a huge piece of, I think, what it means to be a human being even is spending time together in community. It’s interesting if you get to the brain chemistry, and solitary confinement is for a reason a punishment. For even the simplest reason of making sure people can be together again to have social interaction, I’m a big advocate for the church being open and safe for that reason that people can come and have relationship again.

Care Baldwin:

That’s the thing, we are supposed to be a hospital for the sick, and we’re supposed to be a place where people can come and gather and doors are always open. I remember visiting a small town and they had a stunning church with the stained glass windows and the beautiful big steps at the front and the door was locked in the middle of the day. I’m thinking, okay, hold on a second. Isn’t the church doors supposed to always be open? I think one of the things that people are not necessarily thinking about as a church, or maybe if we can say it, some churches are maybe being a little bit selfish when it comes to what needs to be done to make changes to accommodate people right now is like I mentioned before, there’s that pivot that has to happen.

Care Baldwin:

We’re in a new era, things are going to look different. You’re going to be uncomfortable doing things differently than you have before, but maybe your priorities and your mission as a church needs to change. Maybe this is the time to actually readjust your entire mission as a church. Are we focused on the right thing? I think what we’ve seen a lot of which is cool is some crossover in terms of churches in the city. If you’re in one region and you know that this one church doesn’t have a building, but this church maybe has really good small group ministry, or this church doesn’t have the technology to do online services, you figure out what you can do to help each other out and actually partner with other churches, which is, again, you just got to remember that we’re here for the city. We’re here for the people in this area.

Care Baldwin:

Like Daniel was saying, when you’re downtown in a city, then you have to keep in mind that there’s got to be an access because this is the area that God’s put you in. I think it’s an amazing opportunity to see more unity happen and build and grow among even churches in your region because we can see a lot of that crossover helping each other out. There’s probably going to be church doors that will close after the season. That doesn’t mean people should be lost and left.

Isaac Dagneau:

Yeah. That’s good. One thing thinking about COVID and Christians in general is that, I don’t know about you guys, but I’ve seen a lot of fear in people specifically around the virus. As I’ve thought about it, and I just like to get your guys’ just input on this too. As I’ve thought about how myself as a Christian leader to help others follow Christ is I thought about this idea that we need to be when it comes to COVID-19 and the Christian life, we need to be fearless, but not foolish. That’s the way that I thought about it. You guys have probably already thought about this as well. What I mean by that is fearless in that if we’re so scared to enter a building because of COVID or whatever, if we’re scared to go outside, I just don’t think we need to have that fear.

Isaac Dagneau:

I mean, when we read something like Psalm 121, it’s just so clear that God is watching over us. He’s with us as we go. The sun shall not strike us by day, nor the moon by night. It’s so clear that he’s with us. Psalm 139, our days are numbered. It’s not like by surprise God is going to turn around one day and then you’re going to get smited by COVID and die. I don’t think we should think of it that way, but at the same time we need not be foolish. I remember reading a book recently, the end of the gospel of Mark there’s that contested part of scripture that is in some later manuscripts but not in the earliest manuscripts. It says something about Jesus encouraging the disciples saying, hey, you’re going to get bitten by serpents and scorpions but you’re not going to die even though they’re poisonous. Well, there’s this group of Christians in some South American place that did that on purpose.

Isaac Dagneau:

Let’s get bitten by like, and then a lot of them died. I just think that’s foolish, it’s foolish. The way I thought about how to balance the fearlessness and foolish is to focus on mission. When your focus is on being a disciple making disciples, then be as fearless as you want, but don’t be foolish. Just recently, I was preaching through Luke and Jesus heals the leper. You guys know the story. It’s pretty crazy how it doesn’t just say that he said a word and the leper was healed. He reached out and touched him. When I was reading it, all I could think about was COVID in a sense. I know there’s obviously disunity there as well, but it’s just amazing because leprosy was contagious. It was actually contagious. It was not just contagious, but it was ritually impure. It wasn’t just contagious.

Isaac Dagneau:

It was actually ritually impure but he, for the sake of mission, for the sake of love, for the sake of healing reached out and touched this leper. We can ask, was he being fearless in that moment or was he being foolish? I don’t know. But the way that I encourage our church was just to say, we cannot let the reality of the fear of COVID be the end-all be-all barrier to what our mission is. But at the same time we need to be not foolish. I don’t know. What are you guys’ thoughts on that?

Daniel Markin:

I would say Isaac, it’s funny because our theology tells us that like you said, our days are numbered and the Lord is the one in complete control of everything. In one sense, if we on a morbid level get COVID and die, it was like that was all part of the plan in a sense, right? If that’s how the Lord chooses to take me, I guess, blessed be his name. I’m more of the opinion that we should be careful. We should be caring for those who are vulnerable, that’s a big thing, but in the end we have no control. If people are terrified about getting COVID, well, look at the statistics about car accidents and driving your vehicle. I guess I’m just more of the Lord guides our steps, our times are in his hands as it talks about in the Psalms. Let’s just live our lives and let the Lord lead and guide us as best we can.

Care Baldwin:

I think too, it’s just important for us to just have grace and have grace for ourselves and for others, because we are all going to deal with things differently. I think we have to obviously set an example of finding God’s purpose in everything. I think people, just knowing that how we respond is showing something, is speaking something to those who are watching us. I think that’s important. I think you’re right. I think there is that line between being careless and just trusting God. I think like Daniel said, we have to consider the vulnerable and consider those where the needs are. Obviously, I think as believers, it’s our responsibility to like, Jesus did care for the sick and the vulnerable.

Care Baldwin:

But then again, just have grace because we’re the last people then that should be judging or treating people differently or having really strong opinions on how one person is acting or reacting versus another, because everybody is going to deal with it differently. We talked about in the church and we’re trying to figure out if we need kids ministry when we gather again, because there’s a lot of rules. Is there a point to opening church if we can’t have kids in. Some families aren’t even going to want to bring their kids into church and we can’t just give them a hard time for it. We can’t, oh, well, no, you have to, gathering is important. Okay. Yeah, it is, but when they’re ready.

Isaac Dagneau:

This will be interesting to talk about, there’s two perspectives. One perspective is, hey, we’re not going to engage at all. The other one is you have the main, one of the news right now is John MacArthur’s church and they are straight up they’re meeting and almost experiencing persecution from the state of California. One of their parking lots has just been revoked. They had something like a lease on it for a number of years and the city has been like, nope. They’re starting to experience persecution. What are your thoughts on that? I don’t know how well you guys have looked into his church meeting, but it seems to me that you could make the argument that he has definitely biblical grounds to do it, and as he made the argument, legal grounds to meet. Again, this is in the United States, but at the same time, you can make the argument that philosophically, ministry-wise, maybe he probably shouldn’t be meeting. What are you guys’ thoughts on that whole situation?

Care Baldwin:

I’ve heard, especially working in radio, we’ve heard a lot of different reactions and responses to, oh, it’s really good for us to follow the leadership that has been placed upon our city and our region. As Christians, we should set the example and all this stuff. I think there’s definitely going to be some division amongst believers when it comes to following the law versus the Lord. But I think some of it is also just common sense. I mean, you want to protect your people. I don’t think any church leader, again, forgive me because some church leaders are doing this, but I don’t think any church leader is going to want to say, oh, but this is what we have to do and then find out that half their congregation get sick and dies.

Care Baldwin:

It’s like, how would you feel then? That’s just my opinion on the matter. I think I would rather err on the side of caution and make sure that we’re doing other things to make the gospel accessible to people versus push this because the law can’t tell us to do whatever. Is it worth the fight? You know?

Isaac Dagneau:

Right. Yeah, totally. It’s a hard one for sure. I remember reading a little bit about it. Daniel and Care, just like how John MacArthur was giving some reasons why they could… Because I think some other pastors are saying, why don’t you just do it like we’re doing outside. Because there’s nothing in scripture that says you have to meet indoors for worship. You can meet outside. They gave their reasons why. I don’t remember all of them, but I remember a couple was like one was like, we can’t facilitate that with the tents and the six feet distance and all these things. They were giving these reasons for why they couldn’t do it. I don’t know. I mean, it’s hard for me to consider this. I do think you’re right, Care. No, you are right. Just to have a sense of like John and the elders there do need to be caring for the vulnerable in their midst.

Isaac Dagneau:

Because the reality is that this persecution is not a non-virus reality. There actually is a virus out there. I think we have to remember that too. This is not just like they’re getting persecuted because they’re Christians or they’re singing songs about Jesus. This is because there’s a virus and they’re going against that. I don’t know. I mean, it makes me think of the church that they have. They’re like, we were not able to facilitate all the people under tents outside. Well, how many elders does Grace Community Church have? What’s the feasibility of just having them meet in different homes and things like that? Because that’s totally a reasonable option, at least in my eyes. That just might be me with thinking about bigger churches and just the particular struggles that they have as well. They have thousands of people.

Isaac Dagneau:

Now they see it as a necessity then too, we can’t have a church service unless all of those thousands are here in one room. Well, I don’t know. I think that when we look back, at least even in Acts, we don’t see these, we see thousands coming to the faith, but we also see the church in their home. Grace Community Church’s building is not a home. It’s a huge building. Right? I don’t know. It’s different.

Daniel Markin:

That’s been one of the things that’s been hard on me during COVID is the fact that some churches are choosing not to take communion together. Their reasoning is, well, the whole gathered body isn’t around. We’re not gathered together so we’re not going to be taking communion because the gathered body is not here present with one another. To me, that just seems so trivial and missing the point that like the church gathers and sometimes some people aren’t going to be there. It doesn’t mean that they’re no longer part of the church. They just weren’t there at that gathered assembly at that time. Are they still part of the body and active and living vibrant part of the body?

Daniel Markin:

Yeah, because there’s something like, as John Calvin will talk about when you take communion, it’s like, you’re no longer just in your own home or you’re no longer just at the church. As you would describe, you’re entering into the great banquet table. Now you are eating of the same meal that Christians before us ate of, and every Christian who will ever eat ahead of us is taking part of. I don’t think that matters where you are in the world.

Isaac Dagneau:

Yeah. That’s awesome. Well, that wraps up our time today, guys. Thank you so much, Care, for taking the time out of your busy schedule to spend with us two guys from the West coast.

Care Baldwin:

Thank you. Yeah, it was insightful though. I appreciate you.

Isaac Dagneau:

No, we just are so grateful for your ministry and just for chatting with us. Thank you, Care. We’ll definitely have you back on again. Daniel, it was good to chat with you.

Daniel Markin:

Yes, Isaac, it’s always a pleasure. Take care.

Isaac Dagneau:

Hey, thanks for joining us today. A special thanks to Care Baldwin for joining Daniel and I on the show. Care, as mentioned earlier, is a radio personality for CHRI which is a Christian radio station in Ottawa. You can listen to their station and check out their other resources by going to chri.ca. Make sure to join us next week as I get the chance to talk with Christian author and therapist, Andrea Thom, as we consider the topic of women’s engagement with the Bible. Even if you’re not a woman, this conversation will be helpful. Remember, if you want to know more about indoubt or any of our podcasts or other resources, just go to indoubt.ca.

Speaker 1:

Thanks so much for listening. If you want to hear more, subscribe on iTunes or Spotify, or visit us online at indoubt.ca or indoubt.com. We’re also on social media so make sure to follow us on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter.

Speaker 5:

Hi. Ben Lowell, CEO of Back to the Bible Canada’s indoubt. Every week our aim is to engage young people in a conversation around matters of life and faith and culture. Most recently, our hosts, Daniel and Isaac have met with Christian pastors and leaders to discuss biblical insights on sex. A conversation about the importance of human rights and the growing dark impression pornography is making on individual lives in our society at large. These are conversations critical for young Christian adults to be involved in. For current programs or to listen in on past programs, head to indoubt.ca in Canada and indoubt.com in the U.S. For expanded programs, sign up for the indoubt Podcast.