Ep. 26: LIVING OUT BIBLICAL MODESTY IN TODAY’S CULTURE w/ Michelle Marcus

Andrew Marcus:

Hey, this is Andrew Marcus from THE INDOUBT SHOW. Listen, we have a fantastic show today. We have probably the best guests we’ve ever had. We have my wife, Michelle Marcus, in studio today, and I’m very, very excited. We’ve been talking about things recently at home and talking about the idea of biblical modesty. She’s been getting very, very passionate about what Biblical modesty should look like in 2023, in today’s world. We’re going to unpack a lot of stuff. We have Bonnie Pue from The Union Movement. She’s also joining us today, and so it’s going to be a great conversation.

Sometimes we just have conversations. We get biblical perspectives, but sometimes we’re left with even more questions than answers, and that’s okay. We want to dialogue and have questions, and just think about some of these things. I think it’s really important, so we hope this is helpful. We hope it’s insightful. We hope we are giving you tools that are resourcing you to get closer to Christ and live for His glory, so we hope you enjoy today’s show.

All right. Happy Monday, everybody. Welcome to THE INDOUBT SHOW. Happy Monday. Thank you. Thank you.

Chris Bredeson:

Happy Monday.

Andrew Marcus:

They’re excited. They’re excited.

Chris Bredeson:

As usual.

Andrew Marcus:

As usual.

Chris Bredeson:

Wow, someone brought an air horn in today.

Andrew Marcus:

Wow, lady-

Chris Bredeson:

Who let them in?

Andrew Marcus:

… can you just put that away? Just kidding. Anyways, happy Monday. Chris, how are you?

Chris Bredeson:

I’m doing well.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah? Good weekend? Everything’s good?

Chris Bredeson:

Yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

Awesome. I’m excited about today. We have a great show for us today. We’re talking about something that’s pretty intense, but just something that’s important for us to walk through. But we have a guest in third chair today, so when you hear this music, which will change in season two, but for today … I don’t remember this part, but we got Bonnie Pue in the house. Oh my goodness. I don’t remember that. I thought it was a little bit more chill, but anyways. Did you just choose a random spot?

Chris Bredeson:

Well-

Andrew Marcus:

I guess, yeah-

Chris Bredeson:

Took it up to the first chorus or whatever.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah. Don’t bore us, get to the chorus. That’s Bonnie Pue. How are ya?

Bonnie Pue:

I’m doing good.

Andrew Marcus:

We will have a better song for you in season two.

Bonnie Pue:

That’s great.

Andrew Marcus:

I promise, but that was the best we got with our royalty-free music. How are you doing? How’s life?

Bonnie Pue:

Yeah, it’s going good.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah. Ministry’s good?

Bonnie Pue:

Yes.

Andrew Marcus:

Union Movement?

Bonnie Pue:

That’s right.

Andrew Marcus:

What are you guys working on these days?

Bonnie Pue:

Right now, I’m actually editing a manuscript for a book for parents.

Andrew Marcus:

Oh, that’s right.

Bonnie Pue:

That’s one thing I’m aiming to get done before the end of summer.

Andrew Marcus:

Okay. That’s amazing.

Bonnie Pue:

Not to have it printed, but to have content ready to send to an –

Andrew Marcus:

You’ve been writing for a while, right? I think Brian was telling me that.

Bonnie Pue:

Yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah, that’s huge.

Bonnie Pue:

That’s a big one. And then I got a couple family birthdays coming up next week, so that’s on my mind as a mom.

Andrew Marcus:

Actually, we should introduce our guest.

Chris Bredeson:

Yeah, sure. Why not?

Andrew Marcus:

I think so. We have the best guest we’ve ever had in the entire world. We have my wife, Michelle Marcus. How are you?

Michelle Marcus:

I’m good. Happy to be here.

Andrew Marcus:

This is so awesome. We’re going to be talking about something that is … Sometimes we have guests and we just talk through a bunch of stuff and we get good, solid answers. I feel like this conversation, we might leave still with questions, because it’s hard for us to gauge, but there are some things that are very clear. We’re talking about biblical modesty today, and I thought it’d be a great conversation to have since it’s summer. It’s hot. And what does the Bible say, or what can we learn through scripture to help us navigate how can we glorify God?

Michelle, you’ve been thinking about this for the last few weeks. We’ve just been talking about this at home, and I think you become more and more passionate about this and you decided, “Okay, I want to read as much as I can.” Tell us where this initial conversation and thought started. We almost have to give a shout out today to someone.

Michelle Marcus:

Yeah. Our good friend John, who painted our house recently-

Andrew Marcus:

John, shout out if you’re watching. I know you’re watching.

Michelle Marcus:

He did a great job.

Andrew Marcus:

You did a great job.

Michelle Marcus:

Yeah. He was talking with us that one evening, and he said that he ran into some fellow Christians in a grocery store one day and brothers in the Lord. They just got talking and they were talking for so long about the things of God and just sharing their testimonies and these stories. They were, I guess, new in town, so John said, “Hey, if you don’t have a church, come check out my church.” And the first question that these guys asked was, “Do your women wear pants?” and he was like, “Yeah. I guess a lot of them do.” And then they responded with, “Well, how could you go to a church that treats your women like prostitutes?” And I was like, “What? Is that in the Bible?” I read the Bible so many times and I feel like I missed that verse or that chapter. What are they talking about?

It really piqued my interest. These are fellow believers in the Lord. They love the Lord and they really think that this is true. Where are they getting it from? That led me into, really, diving into, what does scripture say? I figured out that God writes about it a lot. It’s not just a few verses here and there. It’s Genesis to Revelation, and so God clearly cares about it. Even in the New Testament, 19 out of the 27 books specifically mentioned clothing or modesty. God cares about it, and so I need to care about it, and I need to know what it says. Yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

Huge. That’s amazing. What are your thoughts … I know you’ve been thinking about it, too.

Bonnie Pue:

Yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

Where did your passion start from, or even the thought of diving into a topic like this? Where did that start for you?

Bonnie Pue:

I think that growing up in the church, then, I think I was actually … I had personal conviction on it from a pretty young age. I can remember as a teenager feeling torn, even have memories of friends making fun of me for some of my modest clothing choices. Then I remember experimenting and getting a pair of short shorts and a open back shirt. My parents were actually pretty strict parents. I wasn’t allowed to watch Smurfs or eat Lucky Charms and stuff like that.

Andrew Marcus:

It’s the sovereign charms is what we can have, no luck.

Bonnie Pue:

That’s right, no Lucky Charms, and so I’m actually surprised that they let me take that risk. I remember walking home from the mall with my friend, and she was wearing that type of clothes. I remember wearing it and just being like, “This isn’t me. I don’t feel comfortable.” I just was like, “I can’t wear this.” I think it started way back then with a wrestling. Why is there so much pressure? And then just as I’ve gotten older, realizing how many … There’s just been lots of conversations. I’m a woman, so a lot of conversations with women about it, and there’s thoughts about, is it body shaming? Is it women’s responsibility to cover up completely, and how much? Because I think it’s such a relevant topic, I think where the passion has come from.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah, for sure. You mentioned Genesis to Revelation. You mentioned that 19 of the 27 New Testament books. Clearly God cares. God cares what we wear. What are some of the findings you found as you’ve explored scripture, because that’s the foundation where we have. There’s nowhere else we can turn. What did you find out as you started studying?

Michelle Marcus:

Well, like Bonnie said, everybody seems to have their personal convictions and opinions. Especially these fundamental guys who our friend ran into, they had very strong opinions, so I’m like, “Okay. I just want to know what God has to say about it. Let’s go there first.”

It starts in Genesis, and it’s Adam and Eve in the garden, and God makes them without clothes. I’ve heard some commentators say they were clothed in God’s glory, so they didn’t need any at that point. And then they eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, sin enters into the world into them, and all of a sudden, the first thing they realize is that they’re no longer naked and unashamed. Their nakedness is shameful and they need to cover it up.

 The first thing God does after he deals with the consequence of their sin is he takes a look at their fig leaves and is like, “That’s insufficient. That doesn’t meet my standards.” Some translations call it an apron or just a loin cloth. It’s a belt with some fig leaves hanging, covering very minimal skin. And God says, “I need to bring this up to my standard. Let me do you one better.” He makes the first sacrifice and clothes them with coats of skins.

There’s this beautiful picture, obviously, that I don’t want to overlook for one second, of God covering our sins with his righteousness and that’s the main point of that. On the other side of the coin, nobody is naked afterwards. Everybody wears clothes after that. Throughout the Bible, your nakedness is still shameful. You cover up. Adam and Eve aren’t walking around naked anymore. They have to be covered.

First off, we see that clothes are a symbol of a spiritual reality inside. It’s a reflection of what has happened to them spiritually. They’ve fallen, they’re in a fallen state, and now they need these clothes that God has provided. It’s a very spiritual symbol of what’s an inward reality.

Then if we look all the way from Genesis to Revelation, we see, finally, in Revelation when John gets his glimpse into heaven, and what are his people clothed with? What are the elders, the 24 elders sitting on the 24 thrones, what do they have on? They have on white robes, garments of white and crowns on their head. It’s this beautiful symbol that God gave them these new robes. He clothed them in righteousness because that’s what it represents. It represents the fulfillment of, finally, this is the righteousness of the saints that Christ has given to them, that God has given to them. It fully meets God’s standards and it’s exactly what he wants them to wear to give him glory.

Bonnie Pue:

I love that. That’s beautiful.

Michelle Marcus:

It’s cool, right?

Andrew Marcus:

So cool, and it’s not just a couple passages that people … Even the passage that these brothers that met our friend in the grocery store, where did they get that from, the pants? I heard that pants debate, and even Chris and I were talking today about, is that the same thing as men wearing hats in church? Just the clothing, people being upset about different things, and so that’s from Deuteronomy, is that right?

Michelle Marcus:

Yeah, Deuteronomy 22:23, I think. It says women should not wear men’s garments and men should not wear a woman’s cloak. And from my research, what it showed is God did create an order and a distinction between men and women, and he wants our clothes to reflect that.

Andrew Marcus:

A lot of the ministry you guys are doing, it seems like it’s an identity thing. That’s a touchy topic, too, but it seems like it’s not just a clothing thing. It’s deeper.

Bonnie Pue:

Yeah. I think that the fact our masculinity and femininity is intrinsic to our personhood, and I believe that that’s going to follow us into eternity. Someone that I really respect was like, “Really? I’d never thought of that. Are you sure?” And I’m like, “I think so.” As a female, I’m made in the image of God. Why would he suddenly wipe away those distinctions? It’s a good thing.

I know I’ve read that part in Deuteronomy of essentially no cross-dressing is just … I thought, maybe does God just want every son to just know, “Yeah, I look like a son and people know that I’m a son,” and the daughters, it’s like, “Yeah, I’m a daughter and everyone knows that.” I think sometimes when we reject those parts of who we are, it’s an indication of a deeper, an inner rejection of who we are.

Michelle Marcus:

That’s good.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah. That’s really fascinating. It goes so much deeper than the clothing. There’s something deeper. It’s just a really hard thing to grapple with. We read some of these passages and we think, “Okay, now it’s 2023.” A lot of things have changed. Obviously, women wear pants, and I think we’re realizing, “Okay, it’s not really necessarily about the pants themselves, but what’s happening inside.”

Michelle Marcus:

If we look at, is it 1 Timothy chapter 2, the go-to for modesty?

Andrew Marcus:

Tell us about it.

Michelle Marcus:

Can I read it?

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah, sure.

Bonnie Pue:

Yeah, do it.

Michelle Marcus:

Okay. 1 Timothy chapter 2, verse 8 (ESV). “I desire that in every place men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling. Likewise, also, that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, but with what is proper for women to profess godliness with good works.”

I think what Paul is doing, from what I’ve deducted, is that he’s saying that there’s appropriate clothes for a woman of God to wear, and there’s inappropriate clothes. The appropriate clothes should conjure up words like respectable, modest, beautiful, self-control, those kinds of words. Then the unacceptable apparel would be things like sensual, extravagant, those types of words. You find those in 1 Peter chapter 3.

I feel like there’s a guideline of what we need to follow as godly women, but the focus of these passages is also on our character and on our good works. Again, it’s a spiritual symbol of an inward reality. If we’re focusing on, okay, seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness and all these things will be added to us, if we’re seeking first, that’s going to shine forth, and it’s going to be beautiful.

Like God says, He clothes the lilies of the fields and they’re alive today and tomorrow, they’re thrown in the fire. And well, how much more will He clothe you, oh, you of little faith? Don’t worry about your life, what you eat, what you drink, or what you wear. The people who don’t know God chase after all those things, so they’re really worried about what they’re going to wear, but your heavenly Father, He knows that you need them, so seek first the kingdom of God and all these things will be added to you.

From what I’m gathering here, there’s guidelines of what you should and should not wear, as far as the symbols you’re putting on your body, but the focus, like you said, is your relationship with Christ and that’s what’s going to transform you. God will make you beautiful because He clothes the lilies of the field and they’re beautiful. We don’t have to think God’s going to clothe us in burlap sacks. He’s going to make us beautiful.

Bonnie Pue:

I think that’s really key is that modesty, I like to think of it as a character trait more than a style of dress.

Michelle Marcus:

Yes, exactly.

Andrew Marcus:

Interesting, yeah.

Bonnie Pue:

And I think an example I’ll say to my kids, and I’ve said to others, is if you were to meet somebody who was a genius millionaire and they walked into a party or something, and they came in with just a smile on their face, wearing everyday clothes, just having down-to-earth conversation, you’re not describing his clothes, necessarily, but you’re describing his personhood. You would say, “Yeah, he’s just a modest guy.” They’re not walking into the room like, “Quick, everybody notice me.”

I’ve said if someone were to wear a head-to-toe scuba diving gear suit to a wedding, that would be immodest because you’d walk into the room and everyone would look to you. I think some of this is don’t leverage your appearance. Don’t leverage your body. Don’t leverage your attraction for the sake of getting attention. Why are you so hungry for attention? And maybe the scuba guy would be like, “I just feel comfortable in it.” It’s like, “Yeah, but you’ve still made a decision of what you’re wearing and you need to recognize your effect on everyone around you.”

I think that this verse and Timothy and then 1 Peter 3, it’s, “Come on, don’t just have people look at the outside of who you are.” And I think, “Come on, I want to be more than a pretty face,” and that’s what God is saying. Come on, be known for what type of stuff you can do, ladies.

Andrew Marcus:

And it should be, I guess, ladies and men, because dude going to the wedding in a scuba diving suit, great example of just we are all seeking attention with how we’re presenting ourselves, so it works for both people.

Bonnie Pue:

Absolutely.

Andrew Marcus:

It’s summertime right now. It’s very hot. We go to the beach. Now, it’s 40 degrees. When we try to think of it in today, that’s where it gets a little challenging because there’s modesty for men and women, so how do we apply? I think you quoted about going into the closet, in our prayer closet. Could you share that story, because I think if that’s our foundation, I think that’ll be very helpful, so share that story.

Michelle Marcus:

There was a woman who loved the Lord, and she took the Bible very literally. When the Bible said to go into your closet and shut the door and pray to God in secret, she would literally go into her closet, she’d make room on the floor every day, and she’d shut the door, and she’d pray inside her closet. She would ask God every morning. She said, “Of these clothes that I have here today, what would you have me put on that would bring you the most glory?”

I think that’s what my big takeaway is from studying modesty, is what can I put on that will bring you glory, God? The attention shouldn’t be on me. I don’t need to look flashy. I don’t need to look extravagant. I don’t need to look expensive. I need to look like I’m glorifying God.

Andrew Marcus:

I don’t know if we can talk about this, and maybe you guys can shed some light on it, but what about the history of men putting so much weight on women and what they’re wearing and how they’re causing men to stumble and all that stuff? That probably caused a lot of damage in women. How do we first explain maybe from your perspective, what that looks like and maybe how we can, for the men who are listening, be proactive in honoring?

Bonnie Pue:

Good question. I know for sure that I’ve heard a lot of stories of women who felt really shamed and just their body must be bad if it needs to be covered up or scared to, I don’t know, just afraid of a man’s sex drive, then, of like, “Oh my gosh. What? This must be crazy.” This goes into even relationships of … This is a quote. One of my friends, she was told, “Men are the gas, girls have to be the brick.” It’s the same mindset of just, it’s just the way it is, and so you’re just going to have to live in the man’s world and you’re going to be objectified. Men are visual. What are you going to do? It swung way too far and it forgot about the empowering presence of the Holy Spirit in a man’s life, where it’s like, “No, you can be free. You could start to think like Jesus and you could interact with prostitutes in a way that would draw them to the kingdom in the way that Jesus did with Mary Magdalene and others.”

I feel like I have a separate conversation with the guys and the girls. I’d say to the guys, “No, you can’t shift the blame because you do live in this world. You do live in this culture. If you just walk around angry, it’s not going to help you overcome.” Sometimes we can get mad at pornography and say, “Oh, it just objectifies women,” but then they’re the object to be consumed. Then sometimes in the church, women are objectified as the object to be avoided instead of seeing them as sisters. You start to see women as sisters or mothers or daughters, you go, “Oh, no, I’m not going to think about them like that, no matter what they’re wearing,” so there’s that piece.

As women, I think we have underestimated the power of the beauty of a human body, that actually God made it that way for it to be a great gift and so much fun within the marriage covenant. Adam and Eve naked, not ashamed, they’re stoked, and we forget that no matter how many times you might see body parts, there’s still power there. As women, don’t underestimate the power of your own ability to attract. Take that into consideration.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah, that’s a good word.

Michelle Marcus:

I would just add to that, the Bible’s very clear on lust and it says, “If you’re lustful, then gouge out your eyes,” so that’s a big responsibility on the part of men. If we’re victim blaming here and putting it all on the women, well, let’s just hold up there for a second.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah. Okay. So circling back to the pants, because I want to make sure that we’re very clear that someone who’s watching right now is wearing pants as they’re watching. We’re not telling you you’re a horrible Christian in the context of this situation. You’re laughing. Sorry. I’m like-

Bonnie Pue:

As opposed to not wearing pants. I’m glad they’re wearing pants.

Andrew Marcus:

Oh, okay.

Bonnie Pue:

That’s what I was-

Andrew Marcus:

Okay. Wear something, driving to work and … Anyways, obviously, there’s a lot of context in that moment. We’re not saying wearing pants in 2023 is wrong, but we did have a good conversation. We talked about 50 years ago, it was very clear when you go to a bathroom and you see the woman’s sign with the dress and then men with the pants, they’re very distinct. I’m just noticing as time goes on, 50 years later, it’s not so distinct anymore. I wonder what’s going to happen in 50 years or even in five years. You see all these award ceremonies of music awards or actor awards, and there’s men wearing full dresses and it’s trendy now for a man to wear a dress. It’s getting blurrier and blurrier, and so maybe that’s why some of these fundamental guys are like, “No, we don’t want it to be a slippery slope.” I understand their hearts, but I wonder. Today pants wouldn’t necessarily culturally be wrong.

Michelle Marcus:

Yeah. I get where they’re coming from, thinking about the argument you used. There is a distinction between a dress and pants in the context of men and women, especially if we’re looking historically. So those people, the women who only wear dresses, are they wrong? I don’t think so. I think that they’re doing their best to honor God. Well, I would hope that they’re doing their best to honor God and not putting on an outward appearance for the sake of appearing to be righteous. If that’s their biblical conviction before God, all the power to you. If you feel like God is calling you to embrace your femininity and wear a dress every day, God bless you in that pursuit. We’ll all have to stand before God one day and we’ll answer to Him for what He has called us to. If He’s called you to really go after that femininity and just be as feminine as you can dress, go for it.

In our culture today, it is very acceptable for women to wear pants. It’s normal. It is feminine, I would argue, in a lot of senses. I wouldn’t say it’s always masculine to wear pants. That’s just my interpretation of where I’m at right now. Ask me again in a year and I might change my mind on that. I think God’s working on my heart in that area, and I hope everybody would be asking God to work on their hearts as far as what we put on.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah. And we wanted to make sure that we’re very clear, that we’re not judgemental or we’re not saying, “Hey, if you wear this or wear that,” we’re not saying … You were mentioning we’re not the police, like we’re just policing everybody. You take it up to the Lord.

Bonnie Pue:

I don’t think we have the right and there’s not enough time in the day to be just going into social settings and criticizing and guessing people’s motivations. Each of us has to take ownership for it. This conversation is for an audience that, hopefully, is serious about following Jesus and they’re going, “How can I follow him best?” Ask for yourself and then make sure that you know how to look people in the eye regardless of what they dress like.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah, that’s good. Thank you so much for both of you being here. I really appreciate it, and it’s such a great conversation. I hope we got some tips, some tools, some resources that we could use, but also, I know there’s more questions, and so bring it to God, bring it to your pastors, and for men and women, let’s just be mindful of how we present ourselves everywhere we go. God bless you guys, and we’ll see you next week.

Hey, thanks so much for joining us today. For more great content, check out the INDOUBT show on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Music, or wherever you stream your podcast. We hope you enjoyed it today. Feel free to check out indoubt.ca. We have some great resources available to you. Have an awesome day.