Ep. 264: Focusing on Jesus in a Distracted World

Speaker 1:

Welcome to the Indoubt Podcast, where we explore the challenging topics that young adults often face. Each week we talk with guests who help answer questions of faith, life, and culture, connecting them to our daily experiences and God’s word. For more info on Indoubt, visit indoubt.ca or indoubt.com.

Daniel Markin:

Hey, welcome to Indoubt, my name is Daniel Markin and today I have the amazing opportunity of sitting down and talking with Steve Brown, who works for Arrow Leadership. He’s been working with Arrow Leadership for over 17 years, I believe. And the conversation we have back and forth about what makes Jesus the most incredible leader that has ever existed is what we end up spending a lot of time talking about. So I hope you find this conversation helpful. Hey, welcome to Indoubt. My name is Daniel Markin and today I’m joined by Steve Brown. Steve, how are you?

Steve Brown:

Hey, I’m doing great and glad to be with you.

Daniel Markin:

Glad to be with you as well. Rather than me just reading out an introduction, why don’t you tell our audience who you are, what’s your deal, what are you working on these days, where’d you come from, and let us get to know you a little bit.

Steve Brown:

Great. Well, I’m in Abbotsford, British Columbia, but grew up in Ontario in a place called Muskoka, which is a beautiful place with lots of lakes. And just before I went to university, so that summer I was 18, I became a Christ follower, which was a big surprise to me. Didn’t see it coming, didn’t know what it would involve, but it’s had me on an adventure and a journey ever since. And fast forward, I’m serving at a Christian ministry called Arrow Leadership, and we develop Jesus-centered leaders in Canada, the United States and around the world. So we help leaders to be led more by Jesus, to lead more like Jesus, and to lead more to Jesus. I’m married to Lee and I’ve got three teenagers, so 19, 17 and 15. And so they keep me on my toes and I love to run, and that’s something that I do in my spare time.

Daniel Markin:

Now, did you always like to run or is this something that you’re like, “Ah, I got to find something to stay fit,” so you do it?

Steve Brown:

Yeah. Started in university. So I’ve been going at it for a while now. My knees are holding up and everything and I just clears my head.

Daniel Markin:

Cool.

Steve Brown:

And I know it’s like, not everyone’s favorite thought to run, but clears my head, it’s almost worshipful, except when I’m going uphills, it’s not so worshipful, but I really love it.

Daniel Markin:

That’s amazing. Steve, did you grow up in a Christian home or did you just come to faith… How did you come to faith?

Steve Brown:

A mix of things. My mom was really connected to the Catholic church and so I went to church every Sunday. I went to a Catholic school, so I heard God’s stories and really, that was part of my upbringing. I was an alter boy, if you know what that is, helping the priest with stuff. My parents split up when I was in grade six and I moved with my dad and church wasn’t part of that story. And so my mom planted some seeds early on. We had some friends in high school who belonged to a youth group and they would invite me and I went for the games and the girls, but they ended up talking about God sooner or later, and I’ve put up with that. I was the kid who was a skeptic and basically had questions, and arguments, and all sorts of stuff.

Steve Brown:

And on my 18th birthday, actually the night of my 18th birthday, so I’m like this milestone thing going on, but my step-mom woke me up in the middle of the night and said my dad was having trouble breathing and there’s an ambulance coming, and I needed to go to the driveway and wait for the ambulance, people to come. And it was like that’s a pretty freaky way to wake up on your 18th birthday. So my dad went to the hospital, we went and stuff went sideways. We could hear the next room where my dad was the defibrillators and all that stuff happening. And man, I felt completely alone and it’s like 2:30 in the morning on my 18th birthday and hearing that stuff go on it was just very surreal. What are you supposed to do?

Steve Brown:

So I was crying and asking God for help, because I didn’t really have much time for God, but I knew he might be able to help in a pinch or at least he’s used to people asking. So my dad came through and he’s still on the planet, but that was actually a really big thing for me because I was like, hey, I’m feeling like I’m a hypocrite here, because ignoring God one minute and then “God, can you help me the next?” And I know people do that, and God rolls with it, but I was like, “I want to see if what my Christian friends at youth group are talking about is actually for real.” So that’s what I did that summer before university. And I couldn’t get away from Jesus being real and what he did being true. And so it was either join it or not join it, but know that you’re living a lie now, Steve. So that was my journey.

Daniel Markin:

Wow. And now that journey has brought you to Arrow Leadership, and with Arrow, what does your day-to-day look like? And this idea of developing leaders, is that something that you’re constantly thinking about and excited about?

Steve Brown:

Yeah. I love what I get to do at Arrow. I’ve been here for 17 years and what we try and do is create safe places for leaders. And a lot of leaders don’t have safe places to ask questions, to share doubts, to share struggles. So we’d really try and create some safe space for them, bring mentors along, so they’re working one-on-one with mentors and have some really practical training and really help them grow in self-awareness. So get to know themselves more. So we do a bunch of assessments and stuff, and then also really walk with them over time.

Steve Brown:

So it’s not like a great weekend conference or something, this is like a 15-month journey where there’s still a pastor somewhere, they’re still working for World Vision, or the Salvation Army, or Youth for Christ, but they come together in this safe community and really seek to grow together. And so I just love doing it because you get to meet people doing amazing things from all over and help them to keep growing, and developing, and know that that has a ripple effect through what they do.

Daniel Markin:

Well, it does, and as you develop leaders, these leaders that you’re developing are developing other leaders. And so you may never actually know the trickle effect. Have you found any specific leaders in past history that you find particularly enticing that you’ve drawn from?

Steve Brown:

Yeah. I don’t know if this sounds like a copy Daniel, but my go-to is Jesus. Because I mean, there’s tons of people I’d love to grab lunch with and learn from them, but Jesus is pretty much it. I mean, he’s head and shoulders above anybody else. There’s this great quote by John Stott, who is this English pastor, and writer, and statesmen, and he said, “We talk about Alexander the Great, or Charles the Great, or Napoleon the Great, but not Jesus the Great. “Jesus isn’t the Great,” John Stott says, “He’s the only. He has no rival and no successor.” So I mean, I know that might sound basic, but the more I think, and engage Jesus, he lived radically different, and he led radically different, and he still speaks powerfully into our world today, and I think we need more leaders like him.

Daniel Markin:

And I agree. I think you see in Jesus the perfect mastery of leadership in a physical way, the way he would be with people and the words he said, and his ability to in the moment be really sharp with someone or actually comforting. There’s just so many different things we can learn from Christ in leadership that I think are so, so helpful. And even to the point, you had to be a good leader, you had to be likable to hang out with 12 guys, to have 12 guys follow you for every single day for three years. It takes a lot of leadership to do that, to keep them all engaged and keep them all following you. So I agree, there’s definitely so much we can learn from the person of Christ.

Steve Brown:

You think about it, Jesus never entered a room where he wasn’t the smartest, most powerful and holiest person in that room, and yet he served. He got down on his knees and washed his followers feet. And I don’t know if you’ve ever been around somebody who knows he’s the smartest person in the room and acts like it. It’s repelling, right? You don’t really want to be around somebody like that, but here’s Jesus who’s like, he’s sharper than anybody, he’s more powerful, he’s more holy, but he actually cares about you and he serves. And so it’s a pretty amazing mind-boggling example.

Daniel Markin:

I can just imagine all the times that you walk into a room and there’s the person who feels that it’s their job to educate everyone, and everything they say, they’re educating you, everything’s like, “You shut up and listen, because everything I say is gold, and if you don’t believe that, then you have to listen harder, because clearly you don’t understand that everything I’m saying is amazing.” But there’s a profound difference between that and then someone who has what they call in New Zealand, they call it mana, which is this idea that there’s certain people who walk in the room and there’s a certain presence, and I don’t want to say energy, but there’s a feeling that enters the room with them, that when you’re with them, it’s like [inaudible 00:11:00] almost the breadth of the room is taken away and everyone’s fixed on them.

Daniel Markin:

And I just imagine, that’s what it was like when Jesus would enter a room. Especially, could you imagine, on a smaller extent, if the queen of England walked into the room, everyone would be just quiet, the air is taken out of the room. You’re waiting to hear what she has to say. And how much more so with God himself walking into the room, especially after maybe you’ve seen some of the miracles he’s just done, you’ve just seen him speak for how many hours, Sermon on the Mount, and then now he’s beside you, just as, Jesus has that mana, which is really, really cool.

Steve Brown:

And at the same time, taking it even a step further, is that he would ask people questions. So one of the amazing things Jesus would ask people questions, not to make small talk because he wants to engage people. And when he was in crowds, and there were lots of crowds around him all the time for good reason, because he was healing, and teaching, and people are amazed at him, he would get lost in the sea of faces. He would actually see individuals. And if you remember those stories, but there’s this guy up in a tree who’s an outcast in society and he’s trying to get a beat on Jesus. We know there’s too many people around for him to get close and Jesus sees him, and doesn’t just see him, but wants to spend time with him. And that example, again, just blows my mind because Jesus sees you and he sees me and he actually wants to spend time with us, even though he’s way bigger than the queen, and that’s just amazing.

Daniel Markin:

Well, there’s an intimacy and a desire for relationship that he wants to have. Apart from any other religion where God is to be feared, and acknowledged, and seen as high above, that’s the amazing thing about Christianity, is actually God having a humility to want to know us and interact with us. You just released a book, didn’t you? Similar to this idea of cultivating an awe of Jesus, and you contrast that to the world that we live in, where we get easily distracted or drawn away from Christ. And I mean, with that in mind, first, tell us, I guess, a brief synopsis of the book, but then what are some of the main distractions that we’re seeing right now?

Steve Brown:

The book’s called Jesus Centered, and the idea behind it is there are so many things that distract us. Somebody told me the other day that we have like 50 to 60,000 thoughts a day. So there’s a lot pinging around in our minds, right? And then I read somewhere else that we see between five and 10,000 advertisements a day. I don’t know how many times I lift up my phone and take a peak at it in a day. I’m scared to know, I think there’s an app for that, but I mean, there’s non-stop barrage of cool things, crazy things, distraction things, cat videos, whatever, and there’s lots of distractions.

Steve Brown:

The Bible talks about keeping your eyes focused on Jesus. And for some of us, maybe if you’ve had a long journey with faith in Jesus, you can get familiar with them and almost dismiss him or discount him. I know about that, but we’re called to fix our eyes on Jesus. And I was just reading through Paul’s letters in the New Testament, and one of my favorites is Philippians. And Paul gets where we’re at, even today in the midst of COVID, because he’s socially distanced when he’s writing this letter, he’s in jail. And so he doesn’t have his people around him, he can’t go where he wants to go. His world has been disrupted because he’s a church planter, a traveling speaker, and he’s not doing that, it’s been disrupted because he’s in jail, and he gets us.

Steve Brown:

And the crazy thing about Philippians is, I think, it’s like 16 times or something, it says the word joy or rejoice in it. So Paul’s in jail, social distanced off his calling and passion and everything, but he’s filled with joy, and you go, “What’s going on here? How does this work? What’s different about this guy?” And really, when you read Philippians, he’s jazzed about Jesus, he’s all the way through. It doesn’t matter what’s going on around him because he, it says, wants to know Christ. And that’s the difference maker in his life. And that’s really the heart of the book, is that Jesus can be the difference maker in your life if you’re led more by him, because all of us are followers first. And how do I nurture a relationship with him? If you lead more like him or you live more like him and then leading more to him, that we’re part of God’s mission in the world and we’re pointing people to Jesus. So that’s really the heart of the book.

Daniel Markin:

Even with the idea of Lent and Easter in the Christian tradition, you give up something, and every time you reach for that something you’re reminded, like you say, “Oh, I’m abstaining from that, saying no to that, so I can say yes to Christ.” It’s a reminder that in the same way he denied himself, that I will deny myself. So for me, in the past I did chocolate. Every time I want to eat some chocolate, see chocolate, again, I’m reminded of Christ. And so there’s, I guess, unique ways that we can recenter ourselves on Christ. And I don’t know, do you have any practices that you found useful over the years?

Steve Brown:

Yeah. I love that idea of abiding, and it’s not like God says to us, “Here’s Jesus,” and he’s perfect, and holy and he’s so far ahead of you and then there’s you, and there’s this gigantic gap. So it’s not like God says, “There’s a gigantic gap, now do your best to try and close the gap,” which obviously the gap is too big for us to close on our own, and we don’t have enough perseverance or determination to close that gap. So that’s where this idea of abiding comes, because it’s God’s power in us and with us to transform us from the inside out. And that’s one of the freeing things, I think, about the Christian faith, because it’s not just me bearing down with all my perseverance and determination, it’s God working from the inside out.

Steve Brown:

So for me, some of that abiding, some of that just nurturing relationship has been just trying to enjoy Jesus. And that can happen through some basic practices. When I run, for instance, I’m enjoying Jesus while I do that. I listen to some podcasts or some apps. One of them I like right now is Lectio 365, and it’s this daily 10 minute deal, and there’s some prayer, there’s some of God’s word, some reflection and it’s 10 minutes. You can listen to it, you can just read it.

Steve Brown:

So it doesn’t have to be hours and hours of stuff, but I think about in John’s gospel chapter one, there’s these two guys who catch sight of Jesus and they get all excited because this is Jesus. And Jesus looks at them and says, “What do you want?” And this is like winning the lottery potentially for these guys. Jesus, who’s the way, the truth, and the life, who’s God and flesh is asking them, “What do you guys want?” And I think initially they bungle it up, they blow it, they say, “Where do you live?” Which is like, I don’t know if they’re just tongue tied or what. And then Jesus says, “Come and see.”

Steve Brown:

And it says that they spent the day with Jesus. And when I read that, I was like, “Maybe these two guys aren’t stupid, because they got to spend a day with Jesus.” And what would that have been like? What would you talk about if you had a day with Jesus, and what would he want to say to you? I processed a little bit on my own and just what that would be like, imagining, I guess, what that would be like. And one of the things I sense Jesus saying to me was, “Stephen join me.” And all going through my head was like, “We should be doing stuff, getting more stuff done. Jesus, there’s a world that’s broken and all that, we need to get at it.”

Steve Brown:

But Jesus in my reflection was like, “Stephen, join me and enjoy. You can actually spend your day with me today, and tomorrow, and the next day. Don’t get so distracted by all this other stuff that I end up on the sidelines.” And it’s crazy because Jesus says, “If you lose your life for me, you will actually gain it.” And it doesn’t make sense, but it’s basically that surrendering, and then that allows you to receive. And for many years, I think I tried to impress God and other people and serve hard, work hard.

Steve Brown:

Even the great commandment, love the Lord your God is like a do it command. You can’t exhaust yourself if there’s no living water, no refill happening, which is not abiding. And I discovered, man, I was, “How could you impress God?” For starters, that was like, I want to do great things for God. And then it was like, I think that’s theological problem with it, because doing something for God, the creator, the king of the universe, the sustainer of life and all that, seriously, you’re going to try and impress him and do stuff that he can’t do. That’s exhausting even thinking about trying to pull that off, but that was my life.

Steve Brown:

And then I recognized that the great commandment, love the Lord, your God wholeheartedly, with all your heart, soul, mind, strength, it’s predicated, it’s rooted and first accepting that you’re loved by God. And that was mind blowing for me, because I like doing stuff, making stuff happen, try and be successful and stuff. But this was like Jesus heard the words from the father at his baptism, “This is my son whom love. With him I am well pleased.” He heard that before he’d done really any ministry stuff. And I think that was pretty intentional that it came in that order like, “Period, I love you. You’re valuable to me, you’re significant to me,” before Jesus did anything. And I think we need to hear that ourselves too and to abide so that that keeps coming into us so that we can pour out into other people and other things.

Daniel Markin:

Absolutely. And as we pour out and we feel empty, again, abiding to be filled back up. And there’s a deep humility, I think, with that. Because again, the upside down, the way to get further is actually to get low. And that’s the bizarre thing about Christianity, is so many times it’s just backwards. Our listeners can’t see it, but there’s a sign behind you that says, confident. To be more confident, actually the secret is not to just work yourself to becoming more confident, it’s actually to humble yourself, acknowledge that your identity is now in Christ. And that actually breeds true confidence. Everything it’s so backwards, but to win you have to say, “I can’t win on my own.” It’s the most humbling thing. And you see that in Jesus’ ministry, you see that in all things. And I’m just sure that in all the work you’re doing with Arrow Leadership, it’s humility, it’s, again, returning back to Christ, which is what makes him one of the best leaders. The best leaders are also humble.

Steve Brown:

It’s crazy. If you and I were tagged with putting on the debut of the next Marvel movie, I mean, it would not be so cool, we’d be fine and strobe lights, we’d be going to Hollywood, we’d be red carpets, limousines, important people. This is a Marvel movie after all, right?

Daniel Markin:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Steve Brown:

[crosstalk 00:24:15] it up. And the God of the universe sends his son to earth, comes in the flesh to earth and there are no strobe lights. There is a pretty humble scene happening here, which is just crazy. He comes in flesh baby sized in the care of not the best kind of pedigree people in the world, but some teenagers who belong to an oppressed people in the middle of nowheresville and Jesus’ entourage is not the most powerful people in the planet, these are not the privileged and powerful people, they’re shepherds and everyday people, and often marginalized people. His ride is in a limousine, but it’s like a donkey or his feet. He doesn’t have a palace, he doesn’t even have a home. And I mean, just the humility just racks up when you think of Jesus. And it’s a great example for us because humility is also pretty winsome and does draw people to you. And a lot of people have been drawn to Jesus through his humility.

Daniel Markin:

Definitely. Well, Steve, we could keep going on, and on, and on about this. Unfortunately, we are coming to the end here of our time. Anything else that you’d just want to quickly, briefly share with our audience about leadership, about humility, anything that just… You have the last word.

Steve Brown:

Okay. Well, I would just encourage you, whether you’ve grown up in Sunday school, there’s been a felt board, and you’ve heard all the Jesus stories or whether this is something you’re trying to figure out, I would just encourage you to really reflect and learn about Jesus. And that might mean unlearning some things maybe that are distortions or things that maybe you need to let go of. Fix your eyes on Jesus, and if you need hope today, if you need help today, there’s no better person to go to than Jesus. Because I know life is challenging all the time, particularly in these crazy days, but Jesus says, “I’ll be with you to the very end of the age.”

Daniel Markin:

Amazing. Well, Steve, thank you for being here. Thanks for being on the program, and we look forward to be able to speak with you again.

Steve Brown:

Awesome. Thanks so much for having me.

Daniel Markin:

Thanks again, Steve, for your time and for sitting down and chatting with us. If you want more information on some of the work Steve does with Arrow Leadership, you can find all of at arrowleadership.org, so .org and as well, his book will be available on that website as well as Amazon. So if you want to pick that up and learn from him through his insights, we want to encourage you to do that as well. Make sure to join us next week for another episode of Indoubt.

Speaker 1:

Thanks so much for listening. If you want to hear more, subscribe on iTunes, or Spotify, or visit us online at indoubt.ca or indoubt.com. We’re also on social media, so make sure to follow us on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter.

Isaac:

Hey, this is Isaac, one of the hosts of Indoubt, a ministry of Good News Global Media. Is it possible that being a Christian young person could be any more complicated than it is today? How do we make right choices and decisions when so many opinions around seem contrary to what it means to live for Christ? At Indoubt, we hope to help make sense, biblical sense of those difficult choices, decisions and the complexity of faith, life and culture in 2021. So join us every week for another challenging conversation in our response as God’s people. For everything Indoubt, visit indoubt.com. And if you’d like to help us continue to offer this program, you can make a gift of any amount at indoubt.com or by calling 1-844-663-2424.