Ep. 27: NAVIGATING THE DEGREES OF PERSECUTION w/ Andy Steiger

Andrew Marcus:

This is Andrew Marcus from THE INDOUBT SHOW. Listen, we have a fantastic show for us today. We have Andy Steiger. He is the founder of Apologetics Canada. Now, we’ve had him on the show a few times. We love this guy, he’s local, and so he’s going to join us. And I wanted to just let you know that you’re going to also hear other voices.

We have Brendan with us, we have Chris, who’s our audio guy. And so, we’re actually in the room with Andy all together. And we’re just unpacking some things, and I think really important things. Today we’re talking about persecution, and what does that look like in Canada? Oftentimes, we hear persecution, we think of Third World countries, we think of martyrs, we think of all these different things. But is persecution happening within our own country?

And this is something we need to understand, because we need to be prepared for what’s coming. I really believe, in the next seasons ahead, we need to stand firm on our faith, and that’s going to cause some issues. And so, we’re going to talk about biblical response to persecution, how the church should respond, and how us as believers should respond. And so, it’s going to be a fantastic interview. I’m really looking forward to it. We hope it encourages you, it blesses you, and resources you with tools that you can use today. God bless.

We’ve got a good show for us today, a really good show for us today, actually.

Brendan de la Rambelje:

Really good.

Andrew Marcus:

We’re talking about some really, really great things, talking about persecution, what that looks like. But I want to introduce our guest, because I’m just really pumped about it. So I’m going to tell you a little bit about him first because I know he is not going to brag about himself, because he’s a humble guy. But we have Andy Steiger here.

He’s the founder and President of Apologetics Canada, an organization dedicated to helping churches and Christians across the country understanding and engaging with today’s culture. And man, we need it more than ever these days. And so, I’m so grateful for his work.

He has a book that he wrote called Reclaimed: How Jesus Restores Our Humanity in a Dehumanized World, a PhD from the University of Aberdeen in Scotland, I mean the list goes on and on. We have Andy Steiger in the house. Can we welcome Andy Steiger here? Come on, folks. The legend. Okay, everyone, wow, settle down.

Brendan de la Rambelje:

It’s okay. Relax.

Andrew Marcus:

We chose the arena one today. That’s a big deal, whoops. Andy, how are you, man?

Andy Steiger:

Well I’m better now-

Brendan de la Rambelje:

Yeah!

Andy Steiger:

… what an introduction.

Brendan de la Rambelje:

Yeah, so many fans.

Andrew Marcus:

Amazing.

Andy Steiger:

Yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

So many fans. No, honestly, it truly is a privilege. I know you’ve been a part of INDOUBT for quite a few episodes.

Andy Steiger:

I have.

Andrew Marcus:

We just love you a lot.

Andy Steiger:

Well, I love this ministry. It’s great to be here.

Andrew Marcus:

That’s awesome, man. So you do a lot of traveling, you do a lot of stuff in universities, conferences, churches, prisons. You do weddings every weekend. So if you’re looking to get married, andysteiger.org. No, I’m just kidding.

Brendan de la Rambelje:

The last time I saw him, we were at a wedding together.

Andrew Marcus:

Honestly-

Andy Steiger:

Yeah-

Andrew Marcus:

… yeah.

Andy Steiger:

… there’s a lot of truth to that.

Andrew Marcus:

There’s a lot of truth to that. So if you’re engaged, contact this guy. But you were literally just in Egypt, which is like my hometown.

Andy Steiger:

Yeah, what town-

Andrew Marcus:

The town.

Andy Steiger:

… in Egypt did you come from?

Andrew Marcus:

So I was-

Andy Steiger:

That’s a country and-

Andrew Marcus:

… I’m, but, no… My home country. My homeland. “My homeland,” is what I meant to say.

Brendan de la Rambelje:

Oh, that’s funny.

Andrew Marcus:

Sorry, I have jet lag. I just came back from Winkler. Yeah, I came back from Egypt yesterday, and he’s as sharp as a, yeah. Anyways, so my mom is from Alexandria, and my dad’s from Luxor.

Andy Steiger:

Wow.

Andrew Marcus:

And I’m from Surrey. So it’s not technically my homeland, but.

Andy Steiger:

Alexandria’s a beautiful place. And in fact, I was there as part of this trip.

Andrew Marcus:

Okay, yeah. Did you go to Luxor too?

Andy Steiger:

Oh yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah, for sure.

Andy Steiger:

Yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

I just think I saw a little clip of you and there’s pyramids-

Andy Steiger:

Yep.

Andrew Marcus:

… around. So tell us what you were doing, and did you see any of my family members? Like, is there-

Andy Steiger:

No Marcus family, no.

Andrew Marcus:

No, Marcus? Come on.

Andy Steiger:

But I was there with a colleague, Wesley Huff.

Andrew Marcus:

Okay.

Andy Steiger:

And we were filming a new series that’s going to be launching called, “Can I Trust the Bible?” So it probably surprises people to go, “Well, why were you in Egypt?” But when we talk about the Bible, our oldest manuscripts come from Egypt-

Andrew Marcus:

Wow.

Andy Steiger:

… just that dry, hot climate preserves everything.

Andrew Marcus:

Even the people.

Andy Steiger:

Even the people.

Andrew Marcus:

It’s like, my family ages so dang well, it’s because they’re Egyptian, I’m sure. But it’s that thing where it’s like they always look like they’re in their forties and then they go to 70, then all of a sudden, boom, they look 700. It’s like, it’s one of those things where there’s no like a slow aging.

Andy Steiger:

Yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

But I’ll take it. If I can look young till I’m 80, that’s fantastic.

Brendan de la Rambelje:

Andrew’s going to look great when he’s 65, yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah, and then all of a sudden, terrible.

Brendan de la Rambelje:

But like old and wise.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah, old and wise. Yeah.

Andy Steiger:

Yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

Like Egyptians. Okay, so, and then you were also in Germany and Poland. When was that? Is that for a different?

Andy Steiger:

Yeah, so we wanted to get as much filming in as we could. So when we were flying back, we stopped in Germany, rented a car, drove out to Auschwitz, actually.

Andrew Marcus:

Wow.

Andy Steiger:

Yeah, and we were doing some filming at Auschwitz. And then we drove to Berlin and some more filming in Berlin. Yeah, and then back home.

Andrew Marcus:

So the Auschwitz camp in Poland?

Andy Steiger:

Yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Andy Steiger:

Yeah, so the biggest concentration extermination camp is Auschwitz. And actually a lot of people don’t realize this, but it’s made up of three different compounds, Auschwitz I, II, and III. So, Auschwitz-Birkenau is where we were doing most of our filming.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah.

Andy Steiger:

Yeah, it’s a very sobering place.

Andrew Marcus:

Man. Yeah.

Andy Steiger:

But important, there’s a monument there that says that this place is a reminder of what happened, but also to stop this from ever happening again. And so yeah, I think it’s important we talk about it.

Andrew Marcus:

Yep, yep. I’ve been there once. It was years and years ago, I was doing a music tour and we were in Poland and we got a tour. Did you take an actual tour with a tour guide?

Andy Steiger:

Yeah, we did.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah, because that was just, it was really hard. The spots, at least yeah, person would sleep, and then it’s a little cube, and they’d have to stand up and sleep for two weeks or something. And it’s like, the crazy things they did there.

Andy Steiger:

Yeah, with regards to that, a lot of people don’t realize a lot of torture took place here as well.

Andrew Marcus:

Yes. Yeah. Yes.

Andy Steiger:

And that was one of the ways they tortured people is they’d make them stand for days on end, yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah. Yeah. It was so crazy, man. I was so blown away by that. And it was just really hard to see. So-

Andy Steiger:

By the way, there’s some irony there going on, because right now in Berlin, they are hosting the Special Olympics. And those were part of the people that were being exterminated and part of the eugenics programs. And so what a shift, right? Of worldview that’s taken place now, those people are celebrated instead of murdered.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah. Yeah. Isn’t that crazy?

Andy Steiger:

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Marcus:

Wow.

Andy Steiger:

Worldview matters.

Andrew Marcus:

Worldview matters. Worldview matters hugely. There’s a lot of things that people just try to bury or say, “That’s not important,” or “We don’t need to think about it, let’s focus,” but it’s actually really important. So when do these series come out?

Andy Steiger:

Yeah, so we’ll be launching the “Can I trust the Bible?” as a part of a number of conferences that we have coming up in Saskatchewan, in Ontario, and British Columbia. And then they’ll come out online after they are shown as a part of the conference lineup that we’ve got coming up.

And then the other videos with regards to dehumanization, that’s a part of some work that I did where I wrote an article that was published with the Supreme Court Law Review in Canada. And I wanted to visually explain the argument that I’m making with regards to MAID. And so that’s part of the filming that we did.

Yeah, so it’s going to be some great content, I’m looking forward to it coming out.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah. And MAID, I see people on my Facebook often now where it’s like they’re deciding to do this or their families or their parents, or.

Andy Steiger:

Oh, people are wrestling with it in all sorts of ways. I had a friend also reach out to me where his grandma is considering MAID and wants the family to participate in her death. And I mean, we’re talking about ethical questions that people have never had to deal with or even thought that they would ever have to deal with. And we need to help people think through this.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah. And so you have resources on this? Can we link people to specifically that? Because I feel like that topic is growing fast.

Andy Steiger:

We do have resources on it, and we also have different physicians that partner with us that are speaking out on it-

Andrew Marcus:

Oh, good.

Andy Steiger:

… that we are helping to get in front of as many churches as we can.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah, that’s amazing. Praise God. So we’ll make sure that we resource indoubt.ca. We’ll have all the links to Andy and all those specifics on MAID, because I think it’s very important that we’re actually talking about this. Again, it’s something that we could easily, I see people post and I’m like, “I don’t even know how to engage with them right now.” Because it’s just these are Christian people and they love the Lord, and they’re saying “Yes” and “Amen” to this.

And I just… gosh that’s…

Andy Steiger:

Yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah.

Andy Steiger:

And a lot of people don’t realize the complexity of it, though. You’re dealing not only with the patient, but you’re also dealing with the physician that’s participating with this and the family. So it’s a complex issue-

Andrew Marcus:

Oh gosh-

Andy Steiger:

… that we need to talk about.

Andrew Marcus:

… yeah. I didn’t even think about that, the physician involved.

Andy Steiger:

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Marcus:

Wow. We need to guard ourselves, protect ourselves, but also be aware of what’s happening in a healthy way so that we know how to pray. This last Sunday, we’re going through 2 Corinthians at my church, and we’re talking about how the battle we face is not really of this world. It’s a spiritual battle.

And so we need to, Ephesians 6, “Suit up, put the helmet of salvation, breastplate of righteousness, belt of truth,” all these different things. But then we have the sword of the Spirit, which is our offensive weapon, and we can use that to actually fight. And so when we see all these things that are happening, or all the agenda that’s happening to specifically against Christians, we need to be aware of it. We don’t need to be overwhelmed by it, because we know who won.

But we need to be aware so that we can actively fight through prayer and through just being in the Word. And so, I don’t know if it’s a good segue.

Andy Steiger:

Well, I think it is a good segue into what we want to talk about, because talking about persecution.

Andrew Marcus:

There’s persecution happening in Canada and in America.

Andy Steiger:

In our churches.

Andrew Marcus:

In our churches. So let’s walk through, okay, are we living in a time of persecution here? What does that even look like? What does this subtle persecution look like?

Andy Steiger:

Well, persecution comes in degrees. And so that’s why I was saying, “We’re not living in that heavy- handed kind of persecution that we read about where people are losing their lives,” but we’re actually living in the kind of persecution that was more familiar to the early church. This is the kind of persecution that Peter is writing to in 1 Peter, for example, where he’s encouraging the church in the midst of the persecution that they’re experiencing, which is more of that cultural disgust where we find ourselves in the cross-hairs of culture.

And what’s interesting, and I think it’s a good segue, Andrew, because when Peter’s writing to the church that’s in the midst of this, he’s basically explaining that, “What you see and what we see is either a fight or flight response.” It’s either, “Yeah, I want to attack the culture because I’m feeling attacked, or I want to escape from culture because of that attack.” Whereas he introduces us more to this idea of, “Okay, what does it look like to be a godly witness in the midst of persecution where we lovingly engage and hold to truth? What does that look like?”

Andrew Marcus:

Hm, that’s huge.

Brendan de la Rambelje:

I feel like Christians today have no concept of handling that. You know what I mean?

Andrew Marcus:

Hm.

Andy Steiger:

Mm-hmm.

Brendan de la Rambelje:

Especially my generation. It’s like, “What? I’m not liked for this anymore?” It’s like, “What?” And they have no idea, they don’t know how to respond. And so the fight or flight definitely kicks in.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah.

Brendan de la Rambelje:

I see it that way.

Andrew Marcus:

And there’s fight, flight, or freeze.

Brendan de la Rambelje:

Yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

Do people freeze as well? Like, “I just don’t even know what to do. I just don’t do nothing.”

Andy Steiger:

You know, I think you do-

Andrew Marcus:

Or is it more just fight or flight is the-

Andy Steiger:

No, I do think you see freeze, and I think we all feel this one. So for example, Andrew, when you’re out and about, and people ask you, “What do you do for work?” Right? Or-

Andrew Marcus:

Freeze.

Andy Steiger:

Right. And you might be like, “I have… “, you do have those freeze moments, right?

Andrew Marcus:

That’s interesting.

Andy Steiger:

Where you’re like, “I don’t know what’s going to happen in this moment when I tell them that I do the INDOUBT podcast” or whatever it is, or “I work at a church,” or especially for me, “I run an organization called ‘Apologetics Canada'” right?

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah.

Andy Steiger:

“That’s evangelistic.” How are they going to respond? I actually had this just the other day. When I was flying to Egypt, a girl that was sitting next to me was asking me why I was heading there. And it’s always those moments where you’re like, “Okay, brace for impact. What’s going to happen?”

Andrew Marcus:

Is the seatbelt sign still on? You’re stuck, girl.

Andy Steiger:

Right.

Andrew Marcus:

Let me tell you everything about Christ.

Andy Steiger:

Right.

Andrew Marcus:

You can’t even leave.”

Andy Steiger:

And so I think that’s that freeze moment.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah. Yeah.

Andy Steiger:

And then on a plane, you can’t escape, right?

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah, exactly.

Andy Steiger:

There’s no fleeing.

Andrew Marcus:

She’s like, “Crap, I shouldn’t have asked.” That’s so funny. So Brendan makes a good point though. A lot of young people are like, “We don’t even know how to process this or how to engage with, oh –

Brendan de la Rambelje:

Just because the change is happening so fast.

Andrew Marcus:

It’s happening so fast.

Brendan de la Rambelje:

Yeah.

Andy Steiger:

Yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah.

Andy Steiger:

And well, I think this is why it’s important that we talk about this, and when we think about, “Okay, what did Peter have to say? Specifically, what did he have to say to the church?” And one of the things that he talks about, and I’m interested to hear your guys’ thoughts on this, because as he gets into chapter one, chapter two, chapter three, and as you know particularly with me doing apologetics, it leads to this climax moment in 1 Peter 3:15, which is that apologetics verse, right? “To give an answer for the hope that you have,” which is that word “apologetics” or “apologia.”

Now, and then he says so to do so in gentleness and respect, right? “Give an answer for the hope that you have, and do it in gentleness and respect.” But as he’s leading up to that climax moment within this culture of persecution, he first says in chapter one, “Listen, don’t be afraid. Don’t fear culture.”

I think there’s a lot of people that are in that fear mentality. And Peter says, “Don’t fear culture, fear God. God’s the one that you should be fearing.” And then in chapter two, he begins to quote Isaiah, Isaiah chapter eight, and I’d encourage people to go and to read that because he’s quoting from a time that they were experiencing intense persecution as they have with regards to the Babylonian or the Assyrian Babylonian captivity, right?

This was an intense moment that Peter’s quoting from. But what he gets at, I think, is really important for us to think about. And as he’s quoting Isaiah, he’s quoting where God’s talking and saying, “Either I will be a sanctuary to you or I will be a stumbling block.” And I think that this is a key idea for the church to consider right now as Peter challenges us-

Andrew Marcus:

Oh man.

Andy Steiger:

… “Are our churches a sanctuary or a stumbling block? Are they a place that people can go for safety, or are they a place that is just leading to their destruction?”

Andrew Marcus:

Wow.

Andy Steiger:

Because here’s what I think we have to think about. What does a sanctuary church look like? In the midst of the persecution going on in Canada? What would you say are the markers of a sanctuary church?

Andrew Marcus:

That’s a good question. I mean, it’s obviously easy to see a stumbling block church.

Andy Steiger:

We’re good at that, aren’t we?

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah.

Brendan de la Rambelje:

Mm-hmm.

Andy Steiger:

Yeah.

Brendan de la Rambelje:

Yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

I’m like, “Aw crap. What is this?” It’s like all I see is stumbling block churches. So what would you guys think?

Brendan de la Rambelje:

Well, in the words of John Neufeld-

Andrew Marcus:

Well, you may have heard of him.

Brendan de la Rambelje:

… “A solid, Bible-believing, Bible-preaching church.” I think, I mean, as long as you do, how do I word this? For me, it was like a sanctuary church for me would’ve been like, they prioritize community and where everyone is actually treated with love. But it’s not a mutual exclusive with truth, if that makes sense.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah.

Brendan de la Rambelje:

So, but community was huge for me.

Andrew Marcus:

Community.

Andy Steiger:

Well, I think you’ve hit two really important ones. A place that’s Bible-believing, Bible-teaching, right? That is faithful to the Word.

Andrew Marcus:

Mm-hmm.

Andy Steiger:

Right? Because right now, progressive Christianity is a huge issue. We’ve got a lot of cultures, as you were already talking about there, Andrew, cultures that are, or churches that are capitulating to culture.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah.

Andy Steiger:

Right? And so we’re saying, “Okay, well, a sanctuary church is one that’s not taking its orders, they’re not in fear of culture, they’re in fear of God.” So if you’re in fear of God, then you’re going to be faithful to his word. And I think that’s an important hallmark of a sanctuary church. But now that second one is so important, community, I agree with you.

My time pastoring, I pastored for 20 years, and I would argue that community is essential. But I had a young adult that was over at my house the other day having dinner with my family and I. And it was interesting talking with her because one of her critiques of the church, if we’re going to talk about stumbling block, and I think this is one we have to give thought to, is she said one of her challenges with her church is that it feels like a Hallmark movie where everybody is all smiles and it’s like they’re all singing the Lego theme song, “Everything’s awesome.”

And she’s like, “Listen, everything isn’t awesome. My job is a dumpster fire right now.” And she’s like, I’m going through all sorts of persecution and challenges. I’m on mental health leave at the moment. Real community is authentic. It’s where you can be real and talk about what’s actually going on and not put on this Hallmark facade. How does that hit you guys?

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah, I think that’s huge. I feel like I noticed that in church ministry, it’s just easy to put on the smiles. I remember I led worship at a huge church in California. It was like 8 or 9,000 people. It was massive. And after the first service, they took me to, we all went to the back room. And it was like five minutes after the first service. And there was a huge whiteboard, and there was all the things that were listed that were right, and all the things that were listed that were wrong. And my name made the wrong list.

And I was a guest. And we’re in the room of like 30 people, camera guys, tech guys, worship team, pastors, and we’re all discussing, “Okay, what went wrong?” And I’m like, “Oh my gosh, my name’s on the wrong list. What the heck are they going to say?” And I shared a story of a song that we did. We did a song called “You Are With Me.” And the story is not a happy-go-lucky story. My wife and I were battling a lot of sickness and different things, and that song was birthed as a prayer out of a season of hardship.

And so I share that story, and then we do the song. And so they complained that my energy level was low and I wasn’t smiling enough. And it-

Brendan de la Rambelje:

Oh, wow.

Andrew Marcus:

… has to be like, “Happy, happy, happy, happy, happy, everything’s perfect.” And I’m like-

Brendan de la Rambelje:

That’s crazy.

Andrew Marcus:

… “I can’t share that story happily.” I mean, in hindsight now, yeah, I’m grateful for God walking us through it. But in the moment, it was hard. But it just had to be smiles happy. But that’s obviously not working because we’re all just lying on the platform. We are actually lying to the people because none of us have a perfect life.

Andy Steiger:

Well, especially in a time of persecution, to imagine that we’re all going to come to church in a time of persecution and sing “Everything is awesome”?

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah.

Andy Steiger:

What a joke.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah. So I feel like that’s a huge stumbling block that we think we’re doing a good service. We think we’re creating this space that’s safe and comfortable for people, but people are leaving because they’re just like, “I can’t be here because I don’t fit in. My life’s a mess.”

Brendan de la Rambelje:

Even the term “sanctuary church” is kind of a little, just very slightly off-putting to me, because I’m like, “Oh, although I view my church as my home,” the next thing I was going to say was “discipleship.” And discipleship is hard, and it doesn’t feel like sanctuary. Do you know what I mean?

Andrew Marcus:

And I was even going to say with a sanctuary, because you mentioned “a safe place.”

Brendan de la Rambelje:

Yeah.

Andy Steiger:

That’s what we mean by it. Safe place.

Andrew Marcus:

But then I also thought, “Okay, if we’re doing Bible teaching, verse-by-verse teaching, I mean, it’s going to make a lot of people feel unsafe because you’re speaking so against what everyone’s trying to say ‘Yes’ and ‘Amen’ to.”

Brendan de la Rambelje:

Yeah.

Andy Steiger:

Right, that’s interesting because it definitely could feel off-putting to you-

Brendan de la Rambelje:

Yeah.

Andy Steiger:

… because this is a challenging message, especially within the culture that could challenge you. Yeah-

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah.

Andy Steiger:

… I definitely could see that. But that’s an interesting part though, of what’s happening is saying, “Okay, is this church actually leading you to Christ or leading you away from Christ?” And this is an important concept that we have to give thought to. Because one of the challenges that I see when we think about a sanctuary church versus a stumbling block church, is a stumbling block church is the one that tells you everything that you want to hear, though.

Andrew Marcus:

That tickles-

Andy Steiger:

Right?

Andrew Marcus:

… your ears.

Andy Steiger:

Yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah.

Andy Steiger:

Right. And here’s another one that I think that we’ve got to be aware of is, that kind of goes along with it. And that’s the celebrity culture mentality-

Andrew Marcus:

Oh man.

Andy Steiger:

… that has been so ingrained in these last couple decades where I think we need to really rethink what a sanctuary church looks like in asking that deeper question, “Is this church leading me to a person, a pastor, or to Jesus?”

Andrew Marcus:

Mm, yeah. Yeah, all the preachers and sneakers and stuff, and all these celebrity pastors. It’s like, “Yeah, my shoes are like $25,000.” I’m like, “That’s terrible.”

Andy Steiger:

Well, because I meet people, right, that leave the faith, stumble, right?

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah.

Andy Steiger:

They stumble. Why do they stumble? Well, because whatever pastor that they really looked up to that was their celebrity or their author or their singer, right, that was their sanctuary, if you will, they fall, they commit adultery or leave the faith for whatever reason, they’re not faithful. And now they’re questioning their faith.

And it’s like, “Well, what was your faith actually in,” right? “If it’s those people that are causing you to stumble, clearly the sanctuary wasn’t Jesus.”

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah.

Andy Steiger:

And so I think those are deeper questions that we’ve got to ask, especially in a time of persecution.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah, that’s huge. We need to point people to Christ. And I think going back to sanctuary, so we’re talking about discipleship. You mentioned discipleship, you mentioned community, Bible-based. I feel like when we do those things, it’s a safe place. It’s also a scary place for some. I think some people might think the Bible teaching is a stumbling block and they will leave because of it.

What do we do in that situation? I mean, obviously we’re not going to stop preaching the truth, we just stand out. And that is probably a form of persecution where-

Andy Steiger:

But this is an important one that Peter gets at. And I have just seen being more and more relevant in our culture in that with regards to the persecution that’s happening, as it amps up, I’m just finding people getting more and more angry. I don’t know if you guys are noticing the same thing, but the rhetoric just keeps ratcheting up.

And Peter keeps talking about loving people throughout 1 Peter, and about engaging with people in truth, but doing so with gentleness and respect. And so at Apologetics Canada, when our tagline is “To love God and to love people,” and we take that directly from Jesus’s teaching where he’s quoting from the Shema or Deuteronomy chapter 6,” right? “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself.”

And so this is the question that I think we have to keep putting back in front of us, is in a culture of persecution. “Okay, am I afraid? Am I running from culture, from people? Or am I engaging? But am I doing so in fear, which is leading to anger? Or am I doing so in reverence to God that, in whom loves people and is teaching me to love people? And so I’m engaging in a way-

Brendan de la Rambelje:

Yeah.

Andy Steiger:

… that’s respectful.” That is tough.

Andrew Marcus:

Okay, so according to the Bible, what is necessary for the church to be a sanctuary in times of persecution and not a stumbling block for people?

Andy Steiger:

Yeah, I think one of the things that we need to do is be more honest as we’re talking through this and as we are acknowledging that we live in a time of persecution. I think one of the things that we need to do, and I love that Peter’s quoting from Isaiah, think about this. He’s quoting from Isaiah, acknowledging, “Listen, the church, people have been going through persecution throughout all of history. There’s nothing new about this time.”

If you think persecution’s new, get back into your Bible, man. Persecution’s not new, this has been going on. And I think that we need to be real about that. And also to appreciate, as Peter is, it’s been worse.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah.

Andy Steiger:

It’s been way worse.

Andrew Marcus:

Mm-hmm.

Andy Steiger:

Yeah, and we can learn from those that have gone before us with regards to persecution and how to love our enemies. Because okay, when I was in Berlin, I went to a museum, I don’t know if you know this. There’s a museum in Berlin called “the Pergamon Museum,” and they have the gate of Ishtar, which they have the walls and the gate from Babylon-

Andrew Marcus:

Wow.

Andy Steiger:

… that has King Nebuchadnezzar’s name on it, declaration.

Andrew Marcus:

Wow.

Andy Steiger:

And so I’m there, I’m standing there looking at this thing, and I’m thinking about Daniel. Talk about a guy who went through-

Andrew Marcus:

Wow.

Andy Steiger:

… persecution.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah, yeah.

Andy Steiger:

Right? And I’m thinking, “Man, there’s a lot I could learn from Daniel in what he went through.” So I think one of the things that the church needs to appreciate is we can get, because what I’m trying to get at, I hope I’m being clear here, but what I’m trying to get to is we can fall into, there’s another thing. Besides fight, flight, and freezing, complaining is-

Andrew Marcus:

Hm.

Andy Steiger:

… I think is one of the issues that we probably are falling into more than anything right now.

Andrew Marcus:

All right, this is so much good content. We hope you’re being blessed. I’m being so blessed by this and I’m being convicted by this as well, because there’s just so many things in my life that I know I need to cling to Christ to and let go of my default way of living. But what are some of the key concerns that we should be aware of for our Canadian audience? Most of our people are in Canada, in regards to all that we’re talking about?

Andy Steiger:

Yeah, I firmly believe that Canadians need to be engaged with what’s going on in their culture. And a lot of Canadians are not engaged. They’re not aware of what’s going on. And I take that personally myself, I mean, that’s why I have written some of the articles that I’ve written, and that’s why I’ve done some of the speaking engagements that I’ve done. And in fact, I mean, I’ve spoken at the World Congress of Philosophy of Law twice now.

Why am I doing that? Because I think that we have a responsibility to be engaged in what’s going on. It’s easy to point your finger in the past and go, “Why didn’t they say anything?” Well, we’ve got to ask that question right now.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah.

Andy Steiger:

Why am I not saying anything? Am I standing up for truth? So listen, I mean, that’s a balance. Because I’m not saying that we all need to become these political activists sort of idea, but we do need to be engaged with what’s going on in Canada, especially if we’re going to love our brothers and sisters in Christ.

So I mean, for example, we need to be aware of what’s going on with MAID because these are unique circumstances that are going on with MAID, Medical Assistance in Dying or euthanasia. So for example, we’ve got brothers and sisters in Christ that are in the medical field, they’re nurses and physicians of various stripes, and these medical professionals are struggling.

And that’s what I mean about being a sanctuary church. A sanctuary church needs to be a place that we understand what’s going on in the culture and that we’re not just leaving people out high and dry to try to fend for themselves ethically and try to navigate all of this by themselves. But coming alongside people, and I think of four main professions right now, that the church really needs to love and understand what’s going on. Medical professionals, legal professionals, education professionals, and business professionals-

Andrew Marcus:

Wow.

Andy Steiger:

… are struggling.

Andrew Marcus:

Wow, that’s a good word. Man, so many good things. We hope this has been helpful, has been insightful for you. It’s been a blessing to you. I feel like I’ve just been so blessed. Thank you so much for your time, bro.

Andy Steiger:

It’s always good to be with you.

Andrew Marcus:

We know we’ve had you on the show a lot, and we’re going to have you a lot more, because this is fantastic. I’d love to even have you come and maybe discuss MAID more, and kind of your journey with it and how you’ve been standing up for truth and we’re just going to unpack that. I think that’d be really helpful. So I will have you back, but thank you for your time.

Andy Steiger:

Yeah, thank you guys.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah.

Andy Steiger:

So good to be with you.

Andrew Marcus:

Hey, thanks so much for joining us today. For more great content, check out THE INDOUBT SHOW on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Music, or wherever you stream your podcast. We hope you enjoyed it today. Feel free to check out indoubt.ca, we have some great resources available to you. Have an awesome day.

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