Ep. 277: I Choose Peace

*Below is an edited transcription of the audio conversation.

New Speaker:

Welcome to the Indoubt Podcast, where we explore the challenging topics that young adults often face. Each week, we talk with guests who help answer questions of faith, life, and culture, connecting them to our daily experiences and God’s word. For more info on Indoubt visit indoubt.ca or indoubt.com.

Jake Lowell:

Hi, my name is Jake Lowell, and I’m back guest hosting for this episode of Indoubt. I’m really happy to be here. And I’m really excited for today, as I have the chance to talk with Chip Ingram about his new book, I Choose Peace: How to Quiet Your Heart in an Anxious World. Chip is the teaching pastor and CEO of Living on the Edge, an international teaching and discipleship ministry. He’s also been a pastor for over 35 years, and has written a whole host of books. All of which you should read. Chip, it’s a pleasure to have you here. How you doing?

Chip Ingram:

Jake, I’m doing great. Good to be with you.

Jake Lowell:

Wonderful. Glad to hear it. So as we get started, I’m sure some of our listeners would love to know a little bit more about you. So what makes Chip Ingram Chip Ingram?

Chip Ingram:

Well, the quick overview would be I didn’t grow up as a follower of Christ. Grew up in a very social sort of church that was very irrelevant. And so I was very disenchanted with Christianity in general, and came to the conclusion, I figured somebody made this, but what he was like, who knows? So my focus was really sports and school. And got a basketball scholarship, went and played ball in college. Then traveled around the world playing basketball. And on that journey along the way, Jesus interrupted my life through a group called the Fellowship of Christian Athletes. I thought I would be a major college basketball coach, but lo and behold, he had a little detour. And I never in my wildest dreams thought I would be in vocational ministry or a pastor.

Chip Ingram:

But a wonderful story about the woman that I met, and how God brought us together that I’ll skip. But together we have four grown children. I’ve got 12 grandkids. And I’ve pastored in the most rural part of Texas with guns in the back of pickups. And I’ve pastored at Santa Cruz, where if you’re not tatted up and pierced up and pretty new age, you just don’t fit in at all. And sort of everywhere in between. And I love what I get to do. And my dream is to help Christians live like Christians, because all the early Christians I met didn’t live like Christians so I thought it must not be true. So that’s what we do at Living on the Edge. And we create some books, small resources. And my heart bleeds for pastors. I think it’s the hardest job in the world. And I think they’re the key to shepherd all of us. So that’s a little bit of background.

Jake Lowell:

Awesome. Well, thanks so much. I know you referenced your book there, and we’re really excited today to talk about this book that you have coming out here. And I have to say what you’re talking about in this book that you have here is just so timely for the moment that we’re in. And what drew you to writing this book in this cultural moment?

Chip Ingram:

I would love to say I’m so futuristic and wise that I saw this coming and so I wrote it. But that would be a lie. I teach very expositionally. And I was doing a series a couple of years ago out of Philippians chapter four. And as I was writing it, I realized here’s a guy in prison writing to a group that he really loves, and he’s really tight with. And he said a lot of good things. And then wow, he starts with grace and peace. And there’s these people that have relational conflict. And then they’re overwhelmed with an anxiety. Then they’re uptight about the world’s falling apart around them, Roman oppression and government problems. And then what about the finances and pressures now that we follow Christ?

Chip Ingram:

And so I was teaching through the book, and then as it happens, you usually write it and turn it in about a year in advance. A lot of people don’t know that. So in the sovereignty and purpose of God, this book has come out exactly when he designed it to come out to help people at a time that I think we need it the most. And so, yeah, it is. This is the doing of the Lord. And I’m thrilled it can help people because anxiety and financial pressure and divisions in the government and relational conflict, it just seems like you’d think someone wrote it yesterday as it’s turned out.

Jake Lowell:

Yeah, absolutely. And my assumption was, man, Chip must’ve just written this real quick and really well, especially in the subtitle that you have there, talking about an anxious world. Has there been a moment in history that’s like, recent history I should say, that’s more anxious than right now around all of these things that are going on. And I really liked it. I know I’m always excited for a book when I’m already engaged in the intro of the book. I know this is going to be a good one.

Jake Lowell:

And there was a quote that I found myself so convicting about how a lot of Christians are surprised that they still face struggles after their accepting of Christ. I work with a lot of young adults too. Lead a community group, that sort of thing. It opens up those sort of instant questions of like, God, where are you in the midst of my struggles? Because I thought these were going to be gone. And then the presence of these sort of means you’re not present in my life. Can you speak to that a little bit?

Chip Ingram:

Sure. Well, I mean maybe what I have in common is I never opened a Bible until I was 18 years old. And I came to the faith as an absolute skeptic. And the first couple of years I was a Christian, I would say it was a Berenstains Bear moment. And in other words, if you saw my walk with God, this is how exactly not to do it. I was in Bible study on Thursday nights, and hitting every bar with the basketball team on Friday nights, feeling pretty guilty most of Friday and Saturday. Trying to get up to go to church, being encouraged by God again. Struggling, struggling. And then I would say there was a tremendous community where I came to Christ of other young people that modelled things and loved me, even in my struggle.

Chip Ingram:

And the other thing, there was this unbelievable passion for God’s word. And it was really hard for me to cultivate the habit to get into God’s word for myself. But as I did that, I didn’t make the connection. That is what the holy spirit uses. That’s the raw material to manifest the very presence of Jesus that lives in us. But yeah, I heard the gospel a few times, and it was at that camp through some professional athletes, and actually Tom Landry, old coach of the Cowboys for those that are way beyond Millennial. And so it was like the burden of the world came off me. I had this amazing joy. I had this hunger for the Bible. I was whistling. I mean, there was a couple of dramatic things. I mean, my mouth was really foul. And in two weeks it just, bam, I stopped cussing. And I thought, wow, this is so exciting.

Chip Ingram:

Well, lust didn’t go away, discouragement didn’t go away. And it was really challenging because it was dramatic and my desires changed, but I really didn’t understand that salvation is a dramatic event where your sins are forgiven, you’re taken literally out of the kingdom of darkness, placed in the kingdom of light, and God’s spirit actually takes up residence inside of you. And then there’s this journey where little by little by little by little, as you allow, you give him more control of areas so that your life and your words and your thoughts and the fruit of joy and life and peace are manifested in your life over time. But wow, there’s times where I just thought, God, where are you? I mean, I feel like I got transported to another planet, but there’s a lot of the same struggles in this planet and one that I came from.

Jake Lowell:

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that gets to your title of it as well, which I love, the idea of choosing piece. That it’s not just something that’s sort of passively just thrust upon us, or that we’re like just driving through and it’s peace everywhere. But that it’s something that we choose through our relationship with Christ as well.

Chip Ingram:

A thought that I would share, and I so wish I would have learned this earlier. And if people are listening, and you could write one thought from this whole thing it would be this, only God can change a life, but he never chooses to do it alone. Only God can change a life. Only he can make you more like Jesus, help you overcome struggles and addictions and anxiety and all the rest. But he never chooses to do it alone. There’s this big word sanctification, but there’s this process by which God does it. But he says to me and says to you, as you renew your mind, as you’re engaged in an authentic community, as you respond to the light, the promptings of what he wants you to do, it’s in that journey together that he changes us.

Chip Ingram:

And I didn’t really get that. Because early on when you’re a new Christian, I think there’s this overload of grace. Some dramatic things, even more dramatic. And then you kind of get on the journey where some of our responsibilities. So that was a big change. And then what I began to see was Jesus, the very last night, just think of our world right now. I mean, right now, okay. There’s governmental issues. There’s stress and anxiety. There’s uncertainty. There’s fear. There’s huge debt. There’s pandemic, there’s viruses. There’s people with differing opinions and all the rest. That’s right where the disciples were, all those issues.

Chip Ingram:

And so the very last night, what’s he say? My peace I give to you. Not as the world gives, but my peace. Not the kind of peace that’s just the removal of conflict. But he would have used the word, my shalom, the power of God, the purpose of God, the filling of God, the emotional, spiritual, physical wholeness of God. That I give to you. Every follower of Jesus that has trusted Christ personally has the peace of Christ of the holy spirit living in them. The big issue is how do you appropriate that? It’s one thing to have a gift, but how do you unwrap it day by day so you actually experience it? And this book is how do you do that in all the kinds of things that rob our piece?

Jake Lowell:

Absolutely. And you talked about that word shalom, which I really appreciated when I was reading as well, this Hebrew word of shalom when you’re talking about peace. And for our listeners who don’t speak Hebrew or read it, could you speak a little bit more into why you chose that word to describe what you were trying to translate as peace in this book?

Chip Ingram:

Well, sometimes we forget that Jesus was very Jewish. And he would have both learned and taught in Hebrew, but then spoke and preached probably mostly in Aramaic. And I’m sure he spoke Greek like everyone else because it was the language of the culture. But when he was teaching heart language, and he is the fulfillment, and so when he says shalom, those disciples all schooled in the synagogue wold know complete soundness or wholeness of health. It’s holistic. It’s not just an emotional peace. It’s a spiritual peace. It’s actually a physical, a wholeness of your body. It would mean shalom would be harmony in relationships. You’re in line with God and in line with others. It would be even understanding your design and actually successful in fulfilling the unique purposes God has. The peace, it’s interesting. Go back and read all those epistles. The apostle Paul introduces almost each one, may the grace and peace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with you. That’s more than I hope you feel good.

Chip Ingram:

And then finally, when you are in shalom, you have victory over the enemy. And of course, Jesus gave this to them, and then he dies. And what we know is he, through the cross, gets victory over Satan and demonic powers, and says, “Now that I’m in you, you have that same victory.” So it’s a very powerful and broad word that’s very rich that we experience. And it’s awesome, but you need to understand it and to apply it.

Jake Lowell:

Yeah, absolutely. I love that idea of holistic peace. I think we get this idea for a lot in our culture, and again with the young adults that I speak to, that this idea of their faith or their life with Christ is very compartmentalized into one small area of their life. That’s sort of like ethereal faith just floating around. And they don’t really relate it to… Because the idea, and everybody knows that struggled with severe anxiety or depression, or whatever it may be, it’s more than just in your head. It’s affecting your body, it’s affecting how you feel, it’s affecting your relationships, how you relate to other people. So that idea that this peace that we find through Christ is going to affect those areas as well. It’s going to affect how we feel in our body and all those sort of things is a beautiful idea for sure.

Chip Ingram:

I think we live in a day too where the language of therapeutic language and psychological language has replaced spiritual language in much Christian’s thinking. And I don’t mean that negatively. I minored in psychology undergrad, and then again in grad school. So I have an appreciation for understanding how we’re wired and all the rest. But we tend to look at family of origin as maybe the only issues, or these are stressors that cause anxiety.

Chip Ingram:

When what God would say is there’s validity to those things. But most of us in the West, and when I say West, I mean sort of our roots of thinking, peace is a when then fulfillment. When I graduate from college, when I go to grad school, when I find that right girl or that right guy, then I’ll have peace. When I get over the virus, when I get a good job, when I finally get that car. And we had this when then. It’s really peace is something out there and external than if I work really hard and things go my way. And then every circumstantial problem is like a barrier. Where in the Eastern religion, it’s looking within and being one with the universe, and Buddhism and karma and all the things.

Chip Ingram:

And God says no. Here’s peace, look up. Peace is found not by analyzing your navel to death and wondering somehow, some way is there something in me to find it? And it’s not out there somewhere. It’s look up. I have it. It’s a gift. And then what happens is I deposit this peace in you. And then I give you the grace externally to be at peace whether things are good or things are bad. And I think it’s one of the most powerful testimonies.

Chip Ingram:

Like I said in the early part of the book, I didn’t even know it’d transform me. When I got back from college after one year, I’d just been a Christian for a year, my dad, who was an alcoholic, a good guy, but alcoholic, World War II, 50 caliber machine gunner, Marine, pretty rough, I walked in the door. And in two days he said, “What do you have?” I said, “What do you mean?” He goes, “You’re really different.” I could have told you… “What do you mean?” And he goes, “There’s a piece about your life that I’ve never seen, and whatever that is,” I mean, he was searching, “I want it.”

Chip Ingram:

And I wish I would’ve been more articulate. But I remember staying, “Well Dad, we went to church, and I didn’t really get into it and didn’t make much sense. And it was tons of hypocrisy. But I’m not sure how to explain a personal relationship with Jesus. And I’ve been reading the New Testament and God’s changing me. I’m actually relating to him.” And so my dad being the Marine, he got up at 5:00 AM, and read the Bible for an hour every morning for about three months, New Testament. He said, “If it’s there, I’m going to find it.”

Chip Ingram:

And after three months, he comes back to me. He goes, “Well, I don’t know how to get it yet, but I can tell you one thing, it has something to do with faith. So what is it?” I said, “Well, I couldn’t explain it.” He goes, “Okay, keep reading.” And he did. And he soon learned that our peace was purchased for us by the prince of peace. That he died in our place, rose from the dead, and in the empty hands of faith, we could turn from our sin and receive it. And he did in his mid 50s. And wow, what a journey.

Jake Lowell:

Yeah. And that’s so powerful. And I think, again, what this book really speaks to in this idea is radical in one way. It’s so counter-cultural as well in terms of that. But I think that’s a beautiful tool in that sense too. Because when we look at people, not everybody is pursuing Christ purposefully, but we know that everybody’s probably struggling with the same things. It’s just, how do they treat those struggles? And our culture comes to us in, like you said, this if then sort of approach. But it’s very circumstantial. It’s that once I get this. Or how do you unwind from a stressful day is we go home and we shop, or we watch Netflix, or we do these things. So we have these distractions, but those aren’t really providing us with peace. They’re just distracting us.

Chip Ingram:

Well said.

Jake Lowell:

And like you said, you talk about Paul in your book as well, and his idea of where he’s at and the things that he’s going through, and a peace that goes beyond circumstance. Which is so important, and I think such a valuable message amidst where we’re at right now in the midst of war, pandemics, financial crisis, personally, like relational breakdowns, and the likelihood is those things aren’t going to stop. They’re going to continue.

Chip Ingram:

It looks the way, doesn’t it?

Jake Lowell:

Yeah. So they’ll continue on going. In some sense, how do we go about discovering what Paul’s doing there? how does he have this ability to find contentment regardless of his circumstance?

Chip Ingram:

Well it’s interesting. He says, “I have learned the secret.” So it’s learned. It doesn’t get dropped on you. He says, “I’ve learned the secret of being content or being at peace in every circumstance, whether I have much or whether I have little.” And I remember going through that, and then that passage that is often seen on t-shirts, usually taken out of context, is “I can do all things through Christ who gives me strength.” Which is absolutely true. But sometimes it’s like, I can do my agenda, my world, and I’m just going to ask God’s help so I can fulfill what I want to do with my life.

Chip Ingram:

What I did I took that as there was four principles and four practices for people who want to have peace in any circumstance. And I’ll just tease out a couple, and then maybe we could talk about anxiety as well. Because I go to church where the average age is about 28 years old. And they’re from everywhere around the world in the Silicon Valley. And I will tell you, anxiety is like crazy. But in terms of contentment or peace, our contentment isn’t dependent on our circumstances.

Chip Ingram:

And here’s my first practice is be thankful. No matter what’s going on in your life, if you can just choose… I mean, there’s days where I feel overwhelmed and stressed out. And literally, I do a journal of sorts. And when I’m really struggling, okay, God, I don’t even feel like praying. I don’t want to read the Bible. And I’ve been a Christian for a long time. Okay. Thank you so much for Theresa. Thank you so much for… And I just start writing down if I have to fill a page of thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. It will change your perspective. A mind focused on what we don’t have takes us to a bad place. A mind focused on what we do have restores perspective.

Chip Ingram:

The second one is contentment is an attitude that we learn, not a thing that we achieve. And so just it’s a different question. Instead of, hey God, why is this happening to me? What’s the deal? This isn’t fair. Look at the world. Watch the news. Overwhelmed. As opposed to be teachable. What do you want me to learn? I mean, this is my grandma got the pandemic. I’ve done a year of school in front of a computer instead of with my friends. I know I’ve whined a lot about it. You understand that. What do you want to teach me through this? That changes, one, is your perspective. Now your attitude gets shifted.

Chip Ingram:

The third one is prosperity doesn’t have the power to give us contentment, and poverty doesn’t have the power to take it away. And this is where be flexible. Declare war that my life’s not going to be great if I could just have X dollars that will allow me to do this, this, this. Now little extra money never hurt any of us. And being able to pay the bills is wonderful.

Chip Ingram:

And then the final one I thought was really good. Only Christ has the power to give us contentment that transcends all the variables. And really, you outline so many of them so well. And I think this is where we say, without knowing, because we walk by faith and not by sight, be confident. Be confident. I don’t have to know. It is a mystery. How’s it going to work out? Being a lot older than all the people that we’re talking to, as in probably by about three and a half decades, some of the most tragic, difficult, disappointing relational, circumstantial, even health issues. I’ve had a lot of broken bones, surgeries.

Chip Ingram:

And when I look back, it was a pivot, or a turn in the road that landed me in a place that I would have never been. I couldn’t see it. Was I angry? Yes. Did I ask why? Yes. Was I bummed out? Yes. Did I whine? Yes. But at some point you have to say, is God in control or not? And is God good or not? So for me, I always go back to the Joseph journey. And when you study the life of Joseph, you come out to a lot of people can mean it for evil, but God’s underlying purpose is woven in. He’s got a great plan if you don’t give up and don’t give in. And so you can be confident. And it’s a by faith confidence because the visibility of things, it doesn’t look really good right now if circumstances are going to give you happiness.

Jake Lowell:

And that’s so good. And what I appreciate so much as well is that the practical nature of your writing too. There’s things that we can do, that we can practically do to pursue this piece. That it’s not just we’re doomed to, again, be controlled by our circumstances. There’s peace amidst the circumstance. It’s not peace because of the circumstances. I think, as we wrap up here, and as I think all good Christian writing is, that there’s a power here for being an evangelical tool in the sense of, we know that there’s people out there that don’t know Christ at all that are really, really struggling with the same things. And is there something that you could give those listeners who are going, hey, I think this could speak really well to my friend who doesn’t know Jesus, and maybe that could start a conversation with them. What advice would you give them?

Chip Ingram:

What I would say is everyone is anxious. And as a believer, I want to be empathetic. And as a believer in chapter four, verse six and seven, there is a very specific way to pray that when anxiety knocks on the door of your life, you can let, I call it, biblical prayer answer it, and then run into your father’s arms. I think our dealing with anxiety in a way that God shows us where it doesn’t mean we are in denial. We don’t play games. But it’s like there’s a supernatural, he says a peace beyond understanding. The un-human comprehension is available. And Jake, I think that may be the greatest testimony.

Chip Ingram:

And even teaching. I’ve taught other people how to pray, even they say, “I’m not even sure I believe in a God.” I said, “Well, there’s four words.” What I hear people say often, Jake, is this, “Well, I pray about it, but I’m still anxious.” And what I would say is you’re praying in a way where often all you’re doing is talking to God in the same way that you talk to your friend. Why is this happening? I’m really bummed out. Will you really help me? It’s kind of vague. And maybe, if we have time, can I go over those four words for prayer that I think will help believers really address anxiety? Do you have enough time for that?

Jake Lowell:

Yeah, absolutely. Yes.

Chip Ingram:

He says literally, in the Greek text, “It’s nothing to be anxious about.” And by the way, that’s a command. Most other commands, where you say, if I disobeyed that command, we would call it something like more than a big mistake. Oh, it’s falling short. It’s sin. See, I think we’ve come to where we talk about anxiety like it’s okay. I’m commanded not to be anxious because it’s an affront to the peace that lives within me and the God who’s in control. So negative command, don’t be anxious about everything, positive command, but in everything. In pandemics, in disappointment, in struggle, in broken up relationships, in your dreams crashing to a halt. Then he uses four different words in the New Testament, by prayer, by petition, with thanksgiving, let your request be made known unto God. And there’s the promise. The peace of God that transcends or surpasses all human understanding, listen to this, will guard. And the word is acting as a century, like in front of Buckingham Palace. Acts as a century, will guard your heart and your mind in Christ Jesus.

Chip Ingram:

The four words quickly as we go, and I let people know that I have this teaching for some that think I can’t afford a book or anything like that. If they go to the App Store and just type in my name, Chip Ingram, all the last probably six or seven months of series are there, absolutely free. They could listen to this as well.

Chip Ingram:

But here’s the four words. The first word is a general word for prayer. And it’s get your focus up, and begin to adore God for who he is. God, you are holy. You’re compassionate. You are gracious. You are in control. You’ve been faithful. And I mean to begin to express, don’t just jump in and talk to God, begin to pause and think about. You are unapproachable light. You spoke in this little Milky Way with 200 billion stars popped into existence. And outside of that, there’s over 200 billion galaxies. That’s who I’m talking to. So that’s with all prayer.

Chip Ingram:

And then the next word is by petition. And this word has the idea you’re going to bring something to him, but it’s focused on your need. God, I can’t do this. God, I’m struggling. God I’m really hurting. The Lord is near to the brokenhearted. He saves those who are crushed in spirit. The righteous cry and the Lord delivers them out of all their trouble. This is coming to God after he’s a big, awesome God. It’s, oh God, I’m bringing you these struggles. I can’t do it. I need you. It’s a level of dependency and humility. And then sprinkled in, and he says with thanksgiving. And even as you’re doing that and what you can’t do, you begin to thank God for what you do have, and how he’s delivered and what he’s done in the past, and the people that care about you and the promises he’s made.

Chip Ingram:

And then the last word is where we tend to jump to. It says let your request be made known to God, and that’s literally bring your grocery list. God make things better. God work things out with this. But this is where you say, no. Lord, I need enough money for next semester, and I need it by the first of next month. Lord, I’m lonely, and I need a friend. I’m asking you to move someone when I go to such and such to take initiative. And then sit quietly. And he might say, I will do that. What I want you to do is you call so-and-so, who’s even more lonely than you. But it’s praying very specifically.

Chip Ingram:

What I do is, I don’t have it, it’s in my bag. But when I get to this part of my prayer and journals, I put a little box, just a tiny little box, and then I put a dash. And then I take the things that I’m struggling with the most and I turn them into a prayer request that’s specific. And then I put the next box. God, please show me what I’m supposed to teach? When I meet with Jake, I need to know exactly what to say on this podcast with these amazing young people. Then the next box is Lord, I’ve got a big decision to make. And I have these little boxes. And then I give them to God, and they’re out of my head and I’ve written them out. And it’s casting all your care upon him. That process is way different than whining in the presence of God. Oh God, it’s really… I mean, he understands. He’s patient. But he tells us how to pray, and there’s a promise with that.

Chip Ingram:

And when I get really struggling, which I do, we all do, we all will, I flip back a few pages or a lot of pages, and I have these little boxes and check marks with tiny little filling in of this is what God did. And now and then instead of a check mark, I have a line through it that says, God didn’t answer this the way I wanted. Don’t know what’s going to happen. Okay. I’m not God. I don’t know what’s best for me. But I will tell you, I have mostly check marks. And the ones that I had a line through three or four ago, I now have these journals for like 35 years, I can go back and think, wow. I asked him to work it out with that girl. I’m sure glad he didn’t, or I wouldn’t have the one I have. You know what I mean?

Chip Ingram:

Or I begged him. There was this window of time. I remember this one church was asking me about stuff, and I so wanted to go there. I wanted to go there. And he closed the door. And so I ended up instead at Santa Cruz Bible Church. And it was like a hand in glove. And it was super non-religious. It was super new age-y. People in satanic cults, people who didn’t know anything about Jesus. And it was where I thrived and it exploded, and thousands of people showed up. I would fall off the stage and we would all just laugh and get back up. I mean, there was no pretense.

Chip Ingram:

People would walk in, come up afterwards and go, “Oh man, I opened the Yellow Pages.” I said, “How’d you get here?” “It said something about a Christian. I saw this address. And I almost lost it last night.” I said, “What do you mean?” “You know. Almost lost it.” I’d say, “What do you mean?” “You know. Overdose” “Did you take sleeping pills?” And he’d look at you like, “Dude. Man, I’m a heroin addict.” And I’m from the Midwest, like what do we do with these people? I mean, celebrate. I mean, it just exploded.

Chip Ingram:

And I just saw God work. Because hey, you know what? A man and a woman with alcoholic parents with great dysfunction and big marriage problems that were a blended family, that were pretty messed up, that God was healing, was exactly the kind of people that others could relate to. And we felt loved and accepted because it was fellow messed up people. And so my point is some of the things that feel like I didn’t get into that school, I got news for you. If you think that’s the best school, if you keep trusting and walk in God, he’s got a school that you’ll look back 10 years, and say, thank you, Lord. I would have never seen it.

Chip Ingram:

Anyway, that that kind of prayer, I think will be the greatest and most powerful testimony because I think that when fellow, all Christians, but as I relate to where I go to church, and I mean, we were just two weeks ago, we said hi to people behind us. It was the first time. A gal had just graduated from Cornell. It was Sunday. She’s going to start at Apple on Monday. Didn’t know a soul. And another gal with an Indian background, a high-tech work, she was like 25, and just casually said, “Hey, you guys doing anything after the service? My wife and I would like to take you out to lunch.”

Chip Ingram:

We sat around the table, and I just asked, “Tell us your story.” So amazing the connection. And it was face to face. And and we sat outside because of the pandemic and all that. And I just so relish the opportunity I’m seeing in this next generation. Instead of being discouraged, I’m encouraged. I think the challenges are paramount, but every great movement of God that I can track doesn’t usually start, maybe apart from Moses, who’s 80, but I mean, the Wesleys were late teens, the disciples were late teens, probably early 20s at best. There’s something about this window in your life that you can dream a dream and not be cynical, and believe that what the promises in scripture are really true, and you can step out. The Jesus movement of the 60s was exactly the same thing. And I love what you guys are doing, Jake. I love who you’re getting to reach. And anything we can do to help them and you, we’d be honored.

Jake Lowell:

Oh, we appreciate it so much. And it’s such an encouraging message to champion is through this book. And when it sounds like, as we go, is that one of those biggest testimonies that we have is those people seeing our lives and the peace that we have amidst these circumstances. So them seeing that. And I hope this book is something that encourages people to choose that peace, live that out, and then speak the truths of Christ to people through their lives and through their peace. Chip, thank you so much. We really appreciate you coming here. We’d love to chat again, hope we do in the future. But thank you so much.

Chip Ingram:

It’s my joy. And they can obviously get it at Amazon or any place they buy books, or at livingontheedge.org if they want to get it through the ministry. And Jake, it was fun to be with you and you do a great job.

Jake Lowell:

Oh, thank you so much.

New Speaker:

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