Ep. 282: The Relevance of Mary in the Christmas Story

Speaker 1:

Welcome to The indoubt Podcast, where we explore the challenging topics that young adults often face. Each week, we talk with guests who help answer questions of faith, life, and culture, connecting them to our daily experiences and God’s word. For more info on indoubt, visit in indoubt.ca or indoubt.com.

Daniel Markin:

Hey, welcome to indoubt, this is Daniel Markin. And on today’s show, we are welcoming back Marina Hofman, and she’s been on the program before, you might remember, we have spent a time talking about women in the Bible. And in today’s episode, we’re going to be doing that again, looking at Mary in particular because it is the Christmas season. So looking at the story of Mary and what we can learn from her in regards to following the Lord, and being willing to be used by God. It’s an intricate and important piece of the Christmas story, and so we hope you find this episode helpful.

Daniel Markin:

Hey, welcome to indoubt, my name’s Daniel Markin, and I’m happy to be back on the program with you today, with my friend Marina Hofman. Marina, it’s good to have you back on the program with us.

Dr. Marina Hofman:

Daniel, it’s so great to be with you. And we talked last in the summer/fall time. So how nice to talk with you at the best time of the year, it’s my favorite.

Daniel Markin:

It is the most wonderful time of the year and it is Christmas. And so we’re going to be spending some time, bouncing around the Christmas story, talking a little bit about Mary because I’m looking over your back shoulder, now our audience can’t see this, but you have a book which says Women in the Bible, and it’s a small group Bible study. And you wrote this, we talked a little bit about this last time you were on the program, but I do want to hone in and get some of your ideas about the Christmas story, in particular about Mary, because she’s a very significant woman in the Bible.

Dr. Marina Hofman:

She is, essential to our story of Christmas, and Daniel, we could really argue that without Mary, would we have the Christmas story as we know it? Legitimate question. Easy to say, “Oh, God would come to another woman,” but would everything unfold as it did if Mary hadn’t been such a willing instrument of God’s blessing on earth.

Daniel Markin:

Exactly. And with that too, I mean, you begin to see, as boring as the genealogies at the beginning of some of the gospels could be, you actually get to see and tease out how intricate God was in designing the genealogies, all to be born through Mary, so out of the line of David. It’s a really amazing, intricate story that God is weaving throughout history, and he’s even still weaving today. But as we think about today, let’s look back a little bit, but before we even get talking about Mary, before we even get talking about the Christmas story as we see it in the Bible, I want to ask you, what is your favorite Christmas album? You go first and then I’ll go second.

Dr. Marina Hofman:

Well, Daniel, I don’t really have a choice in my answer because my daughter makes me play Jingle Bells by Lauren Daigle, on the album Behold, almost every day of the year. So I feel compelled to, I must in her honor say my favorite Christmas album is Behold by Lauren Daigle.

Daniel Markin:

There you go. And you probably know all those songs off by heart. And now, the challenging piece now that you have to fight off is feeling like you get a break from Christmas, right?

Dr. Marina Hofman:

Yes, exactly. But you know what though? We have so many Christmas albums at our house that I just bring out several that I haven’t heard. I think if I played all of them once I would have more than I needed for the whole month of December.

Daniel Markin:

So that’s a good pick, Lauren Daigle. I’m going to hit you with an old one and a Canadian one, that a lot of people might not familiar with, but our generation might, at least if you’re my age, if you’re 27, maybe you’re early thirties, late twenties. There’s an album, a Christmas album by Bruce Cockburn, who is a Canadian folk singer. And you might know him from the guy who was singing on the TV show Franklin.

Dr. Marina Hofman:

Oh yes.

Daniel Markin:

Right, it’s about this turtle, “Hey, it’s Franklin.” Well, this guy, he does a full Christmas album and it’s amazing. And he’s a really good guitarist, and so it’s really quirky, really fun. The album doesn’t take itself too seriously, it kind of sounds like a group of people in a room singing. And that for me is a total hidden gem when it comes to Christmas.

Dr. Marina Hofman:

Another hidden gem since we’re talking about Canadians, I should throw out Steve Bell because he, from Winnipeg, is well known in Western Canada, and he has so many beautiful albums too.

Daniel Markin:

And Marina, you spent some time in Canada, correct?

Dr. Marina Hofman:

Yes, I was born and raised there. I only moved here six years ago.

Daniel Markin:

Okay. And when you say here, you’re now in the States?

Dr. Marina Hofman:

Well, Daniel, if I tell you that I’m living in South Florida, your listeners will not be happy because I can imagine the weather today across Canada. When we get some winds from the north, which is very uncommon, maybe once a month, and we freeze, and it’s really only, let’s say 78 degrees out, no legitimate claim on being cold, right Daniel?

Daniel Markin:

Yeah, I remember actually, yeah, it’s now all sliding back into place. You’re in Florida, you’re going to walk out right now and enjoy the sunshine. But listen, we could talk about sunshine for a long time, but I want to talk about winter and Christmas. Although at the time, in Jesus’ day they were in Nazareth, they’re in the Middle East, so not a ton of maybe Christmas weather going on. But let’s spend some time talking about Mary, and the important role that she plays in the Bible, in the biblical story. Because as Christians, we understand that God has been weaving a story throughout all of history from Genesis to Revelation, it’s a story of God’s intricate story, moving all throughout these different people, men and women.

Daniel Markin:

And I think something close to your heart is, a lot of times, we tend to emphasize the stories of men, and oftentimes, minimize the stories of women. And that’s a great miscalculation. Well, it grieves me that we do that because we actually, if we look around at our population, there’s more women than men. And so we would actually be wise to also learn from the women, and their stories, and how that can actually influence not only women today, but also men and how they can think rightly about the story.

Dr. Marina Hofman:

That’s so true, Daniel. And that’s a great biblical perspective because when you look at the Old Testament and the New, you see all these women who would otherwise be obscure because they didn’t have authority, they didn’t have positions in society and politics. And yet, they had such incredible self-sacrificial, all-in examples of faithfulness to God, and to make it more powerful during a time where everyone else is in sin and immorality is flourishing. And so if Israel had only looked at the example of so many women, many of which are widows too, the bottom ring of society in terms of economic status. And yet, Israel so often ignored their examples and got into trouble with it. So I love what you’re saying, we also need to take a look at the women in the Bible and I think we can relate to them far more sometimes because they’re not the King of Israel or a great prophet, they’re just ordinary people that we can connect to and relate to. And we have shared experiences.

Daniel Markin:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). And I mean, deep down, we’re ordinary people too, there’s nothing magnificent about us. I think my wife Elise would say, “Yeah, you’re pretty ordinary,” and because she knows me better than anyone else, she’s no longer impressed by things. And I think it’s a good place to be, a humble place to be, to just recognize that we are ordinary. But yeah, we can look at some of these ordinary people who, in significant moments, do extraordinary things, and it questions us as to whether we would do the same.

Dr. Marina Hofman:

Yeah. And if we’re going to talk about ordinary, look at Mary. Who was she before the story that we know? She was just a young woman with dreams for the future, with plans for the future. There’s no possible way, Daniel, that she envisioned herself as the mother of God. That’s impossible. So what happened to all her dreams and visions for the future? In one moment, when angel comes to her and gives her a whole new calling and mission for her life, and how does this ordinary woman respond? Immediately accept this call. To me, it is such a powerful example because Daniel, God is calling us too. And I think Mary makes me ask, can I have the willingness to immediately obey and then to spend my whole life following God in the same way that Mary did?

Daniel Markin:

And not only obeying, but the living with the consequences of obeying. For her, it meant actually giving birth to the savior of the world and then having to watch him die. And it occurs to me that for many of us, there’s going to be things God calls us to that might just be a season of life, but there’s going to be different choices that we make that now influence the future of our lives. And actions have consequences, whether for good or for bad. And we will have to sacrifice many things when following the Lord.

Dr. Marina Hofman:

Yeah. And if we talk about Mary’s commitment, as you say, it’s all the way to the death of Christ, and then more so she is a witness to the resurrection of Christ, and then Christ ascends. And I’m sure, Daniel, you will say when Christ has left in human form earth, Mary’s task is finished, she’s been successful, she followed God to the end. Except that’s not the end of Mary’s story. There’s this beautiful reference to her we find in Acts. Here, Mary is finished her calling on God and yet, she is found in the upper room, waiting for the Holy Spirit, waiting to continue to bring God’s mission of life and salvation to the rest of the world. So how incredible, I think, Daniel, she follows God and fulfills God’s mission even above and beyond what the angel commanded. And again, as you say, the sacrifice and the lifelong commitment, if we’re going to walk in the calling of God in our life.

Daniel Markin:

Yeah, she exemplifies a life of humility, and she could have just turned around and said, “Nope, that was my son who just sent it to heaven, worship me now.” She doesn’t, basically, she realizes who is the Christ, and she wants to be there and follow him to the end. And that’s got to weird thing too, that yes, it’s her son, but also not her son. And we don’t have time to get into it, but how much does it look like her and maybe there’s some features that she sees? But also, he is the savior of the world, and to have to release that too would be so unique. I want to spend a little bit of time here. Let’s read through the passage, I’m looking at Luke 1:26. And I think it’d be helpful to, since it’s Christmas, let’s read through it, let’s talk through it.

Daniel Markin:

But then if anything jumps to your mind, I’d love for you to interject and just offer some commentary as we go. But I’m just looking here for everyone who is somewhat familiar with the story. Luke 1:26 says, “In the six month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David.”

Dr. Marina Hofman:

I feel like, Daniel, we can already jump in and say all kinds of things. I love your opening words.

Daniel Markin:

Yeah.

Dr. Marina Hofman:

What’s the first scene? Elizabeth’s pregnancy. What do we know about Elizabeth’s pregnancy? Miraculous and so much more. How amazing.

Daniel Markin:

And who is Elizabeth?

Dr. Marina Hofman:

Elizabeth is this woman, she is related to Mary, and she has an incredible story that reflect exactly what is about to happen to Mary. She too, is given a promise for a child to her husband, her husband doubts, and then he’s silence, but Elizabeth agrees. And would you believe, in her old age, she bears an incredible child of promise who will be John the Baptist, who will prepare the way for the coming of Jesus Christ, prepare the hearts to accept the message of Jesus, and to already begin the proclamation that salvation has come. So here, God has not left Mary to experience everything alone or to wonder if God is doing something that’s never been done before.\

Dr. Marina Hofman:

She can look to her own relative and realize God can do the miraculous. What a faith building? And Daniel, how incredible that this is the way God works? He doesn’t throw a suffering and trials at us, but he prepares the way before even a trial comes, before he even gives us a calling. And we can lean in and say, “God, what are you doing around me? How are you preparing my life? And who also can I support in?” Daniel, another huge theme, right in the middle of isolation and forces that would try to separate us, instead, having the mindset to be around those who God has done miraculous things and who is called, and who can be a source of spiritual encouragement to us.

Daniel Markin:

Yeah, absolutely. We see this angel shows up, Gabriel, to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, which was kind of a backwater town, right? We’re talking suburbs, sort of small town, to a virgin pledged be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David, and that David is King David. The virgin’s name was Mary, and the angel went to her and said, “Greetings you who are highly favored, the Lord is with you.”

Dr. Marina Hofman:

Yeah, as you say, it’s such a dichotomy, because we have Nazareth, the middle of nowhere, small town, no one expects someone great to emerge from it. And yet, we also see signs of greatness right here, the spectacular, a virgin, and we know the story. An angel coming to her, speaking to her these be words, the call out to king David. So again, a reminder how in our own lives we can be living the ordinary that we were talking about earlier, and yet all around us, God is doing the wonderful. And sometimes, maybe Daniel, we just have to open our eyes a little bit more, or even pray and say, “God, where are you at work all around me, encourage me today, and help me to see your hand working and help me then to have the courage to enter in and join what you’re doing.”

Daniel Markin:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). And it doesn’t matter where you’re from, could be big city, small town, the Lord will use you and be open to that. So this angel appears to Mary and Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid. Mary, you have found favor with God. You will conceive and give birth to a son. And you are to call him Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”

Daniel Markin:

And what I love with this too is every time you see angels appear in scripture, over and over, and over and over again, it’s always, “Don’t be afraid, don’t be afraid.” And it’s just the scene tickles me because you’re constantly… I mean, how would you react? You just see this miraculous person in front of you, and it’s like, “Don’t be afraid of my appearance right now, or that you’re seeing an angel.” It’s like, “Yes, you are.”

Dr. Marina Hofman:

Yeah, exactly.

Daniel Markin:

“And don’t be afraid because I’m about to say something that’s going to totally throw you for a loop.” It’d be a funny situation for everyone to be in.

Dr. Marina Hofman:

Yeah. And I love also, look at the next few words you read, “You have found favor with God.” At this point, as we just read, she’s a virgin. How incredible that Mary is favored and blessed by God and has a powerful calling on her life before even she’s experienced the miraculous. And again, I think the connection to us is so strong. And Daniel, I think so many people would say, “Oh no, I’m not favored, not blessed.” No, we are favored and blessed in Christ. And just like the promise to marry, God is with us. Again, beautiful themes of Christmas. We say Immanuel, God with us, and it’s in the highs and the lows, isn’t it? To know to have faith that God is working mightily, God is calling, God is blessing, even when we can’t see it. And it hasn’t happened yet. But to have the eyes of faith like Mary did.

Daniel Markin:

Absolutely. And I love this piece here too, that, “He will reign over Jacob’s as descend forever; his kingdom will never end.” And I get this feeling that Mary’s probably able to connect this, to what she learned as a little girl, I’ve heard the stories. And what it sounds like you’re saying is that this is going to be the Messiah. But it is funny because her response right away is, “Oh, well, how will this be,” and she says, Mary asks the angel, “since I am a virgin?”

Dr. Marina Hofman:

Yes. So many people condemn Mary and say, “Oh, the first thing she does is doubt. She doesn’t have faith.” I do not see that at all. I see this statement as incredible faith. She believes it can happen. What’s her only doubt, Daniel? Does she doubt God? Does she doubt the angel? No, her only doubt is herself. My body, I physically am a virgin, so how can you do it with the limitation of my humanity? But that’s it, apart from her own self-doubt, she does not express any doubt in the mighty ability of God to do this. And again, if we picture the time where people have been longing for God to work, and it seems God is not at work because the Romans are in charge, and there’s a type of enslavement that they are in, talk about government control, right? This is the time right here. So calling out, waiting for God to act, and Mary has no doubt that God can and will act.

Daniel Markin:

Well, it’s interesting that you bring that up because I mean, the people, Mary’s people, would’ve all been praying to God for relief from the government, from relief really from Roman oppression. That’s probably one of the things they would’ve been praying for, “God, would you topple the Roman oppression so that we could now be living as free people?” And this also, in contrast, is what a lot of people were expecting the Messiah to do, was to be the one who would ultimately destroy the Roman government, lead an uprising. And as we know, looking hindsight is 2020, we know that Christ came not to defeat the enemy of Rome, but to defeat the true enemy who was Satan, to defeat sin and death. And so it’s interesting, but this moment of Mary now putting all this together, I liked that piece there about her human limitation because I think each one of us feel doubts when God calls us into something and we want to be used by him.

Daniel Markin:

We doubt ourselves, but it’s just again and again, and again, to encourage everyone, you just see God using total disasters and wrecks of people all throughout scripture to accomplish his purposes. If he can do it for them, he can do it with you as well.

Dr. Marina Hofman:

That’s so true, Daniel. And if we’re going to talk about being strong, then what does the New Testament say? We are strongest when we are actually weak because it is in our human weakness that God’s power is made grand, and God is glorified. And the power that raised Christ from the dead is on full display when we ourselves are near dead. So how amazing that we can trust in the Lord, read the promises, be encouraged and feel strong, some days. And on those days that we are not feeling so strong and maybe we’re forgetting to walk in the promises of God, it might be that we’re even stronger because then we go in God’s strength.

Daniel Markin:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Well, and there’s something amazing about being able to go to the Lord and just leave everything at his feet. One of the things that we can do is when we are feeling weak, we just go to him and, and leave everything down at the foot of the cross and say, “Lord, you take it.” And that’s the place ultimately he wants us to be is, he might bring things upon us that are difficult in order that he might then cause us to have to cling to him in a tighter, closer way, to prepare us for what’s going to happen. So I’ll continue here. The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you, so the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. Even Elizabeth, your relative, is going to have a child in her old age. And she who was said to be unable to conceive in her six month, for no word from God will ever fail.”

Dr. Marina Hofman:

So much there, Daniel, isn’t there. Isn’t it incredible that this miracle happens because of the Holy Spirit, and as we all know, all of our listeners today, it is the same Holy Spirit that is at work within us today. So what a fact to hold onto. If we want to expand our world and start praying with increasing faith, I think this is a verse right here. The words of the angel to us as well, “The Holy Spirit is upon you and the power of the Most High will overshadow you.” Imagine our lives, Daniel, if we could live every day in that reality, remembering that the Holy Spirit is upon us, is with us, it is making everything possible. And God’s call in our life and God’s mission for our life will be accomplished by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Dr. Marina Hofman:

What God did for Mary is the same power that is at work in what God wants to do in our own lives. And even if we doubt it, Daniel, look at Verse 37, that was beautiful, “For no word from God will ever fail again.” Again, another promise of God to hold onto, to live every day by.

Daniel Markin:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). And then I love this line here, in Verse 38, and this is where we’ll kind of close off the story here. Mary says, “‘I’m the Lord’s servant,’ Mary answered, ‘may your word to me be fulfilled.’ Then the angel left her.” And I love that. She basically says, “Lord, I’m your servant, I’m yours, do what you need to do,” and then the angel leaves. And it’s this amazing moment where she accepts it in that moment and is like, “You know what? I’ve said I’m going to be your servant, this is not my time to be your servant.

Dr. Marina Hofman:

Yeah, that’s beautiful. And what are the implications of this servant heart of Mary, and her humility, and her obedience? Really it’s extended to all of humanity. And I love the reminder that we so often have when we look at the women in the Bible, is that their legacy and what they accomplished in almost every case goes generations beyond what they saw themselves. And I think that’s an encouragement, again, that need to live in day by day, whether we have kids or one day in the future have kids, whether it’s care for our parents, whether it’s care and love for our friends, our spouse. Whoever the people are that are in our inner circle in life, if we can be humble and obedient, and follow God’s call, what kind of legacy are we leaving for them and the generations to come? And again, we’ll never know, we have to walk by faith and trust that if we are obedient, we can have such an effect that will go vastly beyond our own life. And again, how is it possible? Power of the Holy Spirit at work within us.

Daniel Markin:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Amen, amen. And so Marina, as we’re kind of thinking here just for some application, what kind of words could you give us to encourage young adults right now, especially as we think about Christmas? Because at Christmas time we have themes of hope, we have themes of joy, it’s really exciting, but as we continue going forward, as Christians, what kind of hope do you have for us as young adults? Because it’s been a tough year. What do you think?

Dr. Marina Hofman:

Why don’t we pull the last words of encouragement from Mary herself? If we fast forward a bit in the Gospel of Luke, we see Mary saying, “The Mighty One has done great things for me. His mercy extends to those who fear Him.” And I think that up for me is a reminder, no matter where we’re at and what we’ve been through, and what our future holds, God is weaving through us a mighty story, and we have a testimony. And just like Mary, can we stand up and say, “The Mighty One has done great things for me”? The Mighty One can do great things in your life because God is the same yesterday, today and forever, and the Holy Spirit at work within Mary and so many other people throughout scripture, all the stories we know, that’s the same Holy Spirit that has guided me and helped me, sometimes rescued me, strengthened me, set my feet upon a rock. And to be able to share our testimony with others is a powerful encouragement.

Dr. Marina Hofman:

And I think, Daniel, right now, this is what the world really needs, the reminder that God is present, that God is able, able to do great things, and his mercy does extend to us. Whether we feel it or not, his mercy is with us every day.

Daniel Markin:

Amen, amen. Wow. Well, look, we’re running out of time here, but it just, we can keep going and keep going, but we’re going to thank you for being on the program and just again, spending some time with us. If we’re struggling this Christmas season, I think it’s important for us to remember these words, and to just remember that we are the Lord’s servant, and that he’s with us in all of these times.

Dr. Marina Hofman:

Yeah, and Daniel, not only to take away the one-liners and we’ve had so many of them, so many promises of God, but to also go deep into scripture. Look how much you and I just chatting with God’s word, look how much encouragement we’ve been able to pull out. And I trust that these words of truth will impact our audience today, but also I would encourage them to dive deep yourself. Pick up a Bible study, go deep into God’s word, let it transform you, encourage you, and define your daily living.

Daniel Markin:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Amen. Thanks again, Marina. It’s been a pleasure having you join us on the program.

Dr. Marina Hofman:

Thanks Daniel, God bless.

Daniel Markin:

Well, thanks again Marina for being on the program, really impactful, really important, especially as we’re thinking about Christmas right now and we’re in the Christmas season. I always think it’s important for us to slow down and like we did, look at a story and talk through the implications of it. And so if you found this episode helpful and you actually want to get Marina’s book, you can find that at womeninthebible.info. If you go to the website, womeninthebible.info, you’ll be able to find her book and then figure out the best way that that book can get sent to you. But highly recommend it, especially it’s a really helpful book for Bible studies because it has the passage that you’ll be looking at, but also has some notes and commentary that Marina has that can help with discussion. So hope you take advantage of that and find that book. With that, thank you for listening to indoubt, and we look forward to seeing you next time.

Speaker 1:

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Daniel Markin:

indoubt is a ministry that wants to engage people with the truth that comes from the Bible. indoubt provides audio programs, articles, and blogs, all with the intention of building conversation with young people around timely matters of life, faith and culture. To check out all the resources of indoubt, visit indoubt.ca in Canada or indoubt.com in the US. If you’re listening and you share a heart for the mission of indoubt and want to engage with the new generation, with the truth of the Bible, could you pray for us? And if you’re able to do so, we ask that you send a financial gift to help support this ministry. You can find out more information about indoubt and how to support us on our website indoubt.ca in Canada, and indoubt.com in the US. Thanks.