Ep. 299: The Real Reason You’re Not Happy

Speaker 1:

Welcome to the indoubt podcast, where we explore the challenging topics that young adults often face. Each week, we talk with guests who help answer questions of faith, life and culture, connecting them to our daily experiences and God’s word. For more info on indoubt, visit indoubt.ca or indoubt.com.

Daniel Markin:

Hey, welcome to indoubt. This is Daniel Markin and on today’s episode, I’m joined by David Schumann. David is pastoring in downtown New York City, in Manhattan, and coming to us from his apartment in Manhattan. So, we’re going to be talking to him about happiness, which I find is really interesting. We’ve come through 2020, 2021, maybe some of the more unhappy years, years of unhappiness most recently in our lives, for various reasons and I think it’s important for us to talk about happiness. What does it mean to be truly happy? And what does that look like for us as Christians? I hope you find this episode helpful.

Hey, welcome to indoubt. This is Daniel Markin, and today I’m joined by David Schuman. David, how you doing today, my friend?

David Schuman:

I’m doing well. Thanks so much for having me Daniel.

Daniel Markin:

Dude, it’s good to have you on. We were just kind of going back and forth a little bit here, but you live in, what would it be, the most populated place in the world? Most densely populated or at least up there, but you live in Manhattan.

So, I guess I’ll let you introduce yourself, but I got to ask, what’s that like, living in Manhattan, man? Because I mean we all watch the movies. I’ve lived in downtown Vancouver, but Manhattan, I’ve been there twice. It’s a beast. What’s that like? And then tell us a little bit about who you are, where you came from and maybe some of your ministry.

David Schuman:

Sure. Yeah. Well, I love living in Manhattan. I love the density. That’s really my favorite part about it. I mean, I love that I can walk everywhere, that everything’s within a couple minute walk, or I love not owning a car. I don’t know, maybe I’m crazy for that, but I love being able to take the subway everywhere, a little bit less desirable in the warm summer heat, but it’s still, I think a great place to live. My favorite place in the country to live.

I haven’t visited Vancouver. I know that always makes top 10 best places in the world to live, so maybe if I visit there, I’ll change my mind. But so far, I love Manhattan and very happy to be living here.

Daniel Markin:

David, tell us a little bit about what are you doing in New York City? You’re working with a church, correct?

David Schuman:

Correct. Yeah. I’m a pastor at Exilic Church, which that’s a little bit of an unusual name. It comes from the word exile. It’s the adjectival form of exile. In 1 Peter, it says that we are exiles and we’re waiting our true home, so that’s where the name comes from.

I’ve been a pastor here for the past three years. I do a little bit of everything. I do preaching, leading worship, lots of counseling, and all those sorts of miscellaneous things, leading different ministries as well and I love it. It’s been a blast the past three years.

Daniel Markin:

That’s amazing. Did you grow up in New York City?

David Schuman:

I actually grew up in a suburb of Chicago.

Daniel Markin:

Oh, okay.

David Schuman:

Lived in a few different places. I haven’t quite made it to Vancouver, but I lived in Portland, Oregon for a few years and then I moved to Philadelphia from there, and that’s where I did my seminary training, and from seminary to New York City. I’ve known for a while that I wanted to end up in New York City, but just moved here finally a few years ago,

Daniel Markin:

Dude, so good. The reason we have you on the program today is you wrote an article for Gospel Coalition that actually we found really, really fascinating here at indoubt, which is on happiness. That’s something that we talk about as believers and it just has a culture in general about happiness and the desire to be happiness. I mean, we live in Canada, but you live in the country, the United States; life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. So, this is something that’s very much on the cusp of culture and of everyday life.

I wonder as we start, because that your article’s titled, The Secret to Happiness. You wrote this for the Gospel Coalition. But as we start, could we define some terms? And what I mean by that is, how would you define happiness, as compared to joy, perhaps? Because I think sometimes we can define happiness and joy is the same thing or we get them confused. And then from there, tell me how, as a Christian we define happiness, in comparison to how our world defines happiness. So, give us Christian joy, happiness, the distinction, and then compare-contrast happiness, happiness.

David Schuman:

Yeah, that’s a great question. Maybe one way I’ll answer the first part of that is, so the article’s called The Secret to Happiness. It comes from some observations in Psalm 1. In Psalm 1, obviously it’s a translation and most translations would actually translate, “Blessed is the man who…” That’s how the Psalm starts out.

But another good way to translate this in the way that a lot of scholars translate it here in Psalm 1, is with this word happy. So there’s already, I think a helpful context of what does this Psalm mean by happiness and then what do I, in this article, mean by happiness?

You could describe it also as blessedness or as maybe more so what you’re talking about with not just this temporal happiness, but something much deeper than that. So maybe more keen to what we would talk about as joy, like blessedness, true deep happiness.

You see that throughout the Psalm, too. I mean, you see at the very end of the Psalm, which I didn’t get to talk about too much in the article, but at the end of the Psalm, that’s a very black and white picture of two ultimate destinies between the happy man or the blessed man. Or we could even say the joyful man and the wicked on the other side. There’s this black and white contrast and it goes all the way to the point of eternal happiness or eternal wickedness and the suffering that comes from that.

I think that even clues into what does this Psalm mean by happiness? It has in picture something much longer lasting than just temporary, “I’m happy today because of my situation.” Even something longer lasting than, “Yeah, I have a pretty happy life.” It actually has aneven bigger picture than that. It’s talking about in the realm and in the kind of view of all of eternity, what is true happiness? It’s following the law of the Lord, as it goes on to say in Psalm 1. So, that’s how I would define what it’s talking about here is, as big pictures you can get, that kind of happiness, joy, that kind of depth right there. You have to remind me of the second part. I got sidetracked.

Daniel Markin:

Yeah, absolutely. So it was joy, happiness, but then how does our world define happiness? Because if to summarize, what I think is what you’re saying is, when you follow the law of the Lord, we tend to think, “Oh, the shackles of the law.” But the law of the Lord, I think is helpful in understanding that its design is for flourishing. It’s like, follow these laws and principles. You will flourish. If you love the Lord and follow, keep his commandments, it will lead to not only your flourishing, but everybody’s flourishing around you. There’s a spreading effect of that.

But then talk to me then, our world, because maybe a good language to use is that of wickedness. We have a wicked way of describing happiness. We have a way that’s wicked in the sense of it’s a fraud happiness and how does our world define that?

David Schuman:

Yeah. Yeah. That’s a good question. One of the things that I think is so different between how this Psalm describes the secret to happiness and how our world would describe it, pretty fundamental difference would be our culture talks more about finding happiness within yourself. It’s follow your heart. It’s you do you. Live your authentic life. Whatever. It’s all this hyper.

Daniel Markin:

It’s every Disney movie, by the way, is that.

David Schuman:

Exactly. It’s hyper-individualism through Disney and everything else and it goes back to philosophers a hundred years ago or so, especially beyond that as well. But yeah, it’s this inside of yourself, that’s where you find happiness.

This Psalm, pretty much just the exact opposite of that, because it says no happiness, the key to happiness isn’t found inside of you. It’s actually outside of you. It’s in the law of the Lord. “Happy is the man whose delight is in the law of Lord and meditates on it day and night.”

Like you mentioned, we oftentimes think, because we’re thinking about the key to happiness being inside of ourselves, we think about religion being anti-thetical to that. That’s that’s oppressive. That’s what has kept people unhappy for thousands of years. We need to break free of that. It’s stifling our happiness. Let’s break free. Express yourself. Follow your own heart. That’s the real secret to happiness.

But when we realize and come to see, no. You know what? God’s law really is the key to our flourishing. It really is a good law and as I meditate on his word, I understand that more and more and I see this is really the key, the secret to real happiness.

When we do that, it becomes such a tremendous gift to us that we’re not having to spend our lives trying to go from one career to the next, or one relationship to the next, or one adventure to the next, trying to find what is going to bring me this happiness, this following my heart piece. The key to happiness has graciously been given to us in God’s word and it’s freely accessible to us whenever we want it. We don’t have to go outside and seeking it, or inside trying to follow our own heart. The key to happiness has been given to us right here. It really is a tremendous gift.

And so I think one really significant difference between how our world would define happiness and how the Bible defines happiness is, where do you find that? It’s not within yourself. It’s actually in the word of God and looking there and meditating on that. Learning to appreciate and learning to obey his law. That’s what will bring us true lasting happiness.

Daniel Markin:

I completely agree with that, but here’s my question. Is there an element of looking within ourselves that’s valuable? Because I sense that there’s an element of authenticity that we really value. We value my generation and generation after, that authenticity, I think you have to look inward somewhat. How does that play into it? Is there a healthy level of looking inward? Maybe just for self-awareness to understand our own state. I mean, we do that to understand our simple state, but how does that play into the overall what you were just describing?

David Schuman:

Yeah, that’s a really good question. I’d have to think a little bit more about it, but some of my initial thoughts would be, I think there can be some value to that. There’s some truth and that’s what helps it stick so much in our culture, this authentic of life. Because there is some truth to that.

We should strive to live true to our intentions as best as we can. Nobody likes somebody that acts one way, but really has different intentions. That’s clearly wrong. So maybe one thing it does is it exposes, you kind of already mentioned this, but it exposes our need for God because even as we do look to God’s word and even as we do say, “Oh yeah, this is really the best way to live. I should try to live a chaste life. That I understand that’s really valuable and that really would bring me more happiness if I lived to chaste life.”

But then the conflict is, I struggle to do that authentically because there’s a part of me that doesn’t want to live a chaste life at all. And so it shows us our need for God to be changing our hearts because we can’t live according to his law without his intervention. There’s a part of us, a big part of us, that wants to take the advice of our culture and not follow God’s law and we need God’s spirit at work in us, to transform our hearts, so that we can live authentically in that way. So maybe that’s one initial thought that comes to mind.

Daniel Markin:

Absolutely. Now I noticed that you used the language of chaste and with that, we’re talking about sexuality. We’re talking about living a life of reserving sex for man and woman, in marriage. So you use that for a reason and I wonder is it because you mentioned that you do some counseling. You mentioned that you talk about people in your congregation. Where you live in such an over-sexualized world that values and would say happiness is found in sexual pleasure, most supremely. The top shelf experience that you can have in our world, in our culture, is having sex. That’s what we’re being told.

You and I are both married. It’s an amazing experience sharing that with our wives. But I would argue, and I would say that much of what our world is saying happiness is found and having as much sex as you can and even looking more inwardly and figuring out what sex you are or what gender you are. Is that something you’re running into a lot right now? I imagine that mean there’s so many layers to this.

It feels like right now there’s such a push with the back and forth. We get this in Canada and I see some of the news in the states with gender curriculum and all that stuff and that we’re talking about looking inward, looking inward. What are you? What gender are you? Even kids are being asked this. Most kids don’t even know what to order its Subway, let alone trying looking inward and figure who they are. Is there a correlation between a decline in happiness in our world, in our culture, and the increase of excessive sexuality, to use that maybe as a term. What do you think?

David Schuman:

Yeah, I think there is, so I won’t be speaking very scientifically necessarily.

Daniel Markin:

Totally. Speak as a pastor. As a pastor. You’re pastoring people.

David Schuman:

As a pastor, I think there definitely is. I mean, a number of connections come to mind. One would be, I think the furthest reaches of this whole philosophy of happiness inside, follow your heart, this kind of hyper-individualism, the furthest reaches of that is what we see with sexuality right now. It’s going so far, not just like, “Oh, I’m going to find do a career that I find fulfilling.” Oh no, that’s super basic compared to, “No. I’m even going to decide what gender I am because of what I feel inside of you.” That’s the farthest kind of extent that we’ve pushed this philosophy so far. There’s that piece.

I think there’s another really strong connection between this rise in sexuality and sexual expression and happiness. One piece that comes to mind is I think that when we reject the word of God, and when we reject the moral standards and what the Bible says is the way to true happiness, I think the strongest pleasure we’re left with oftentimes is sex. So I think it of makes sense. Like, yeah, sex is a very pleasurable thing and it’s meant to be a pleasurable thing. So, I think it makes sense that when we have rejected all else, that maybe is something that we go to, especially because it is like a height pleasure. So since we reject this, we go towards this.

I also think that there’s a connection between this heightened sexuality and decline in happiness because that’s what this Psalm would say. This Psalm says, “Hey, you know what the secret to happiness is? Delighting in the Lord. Meditating on his law. Not taking the council of the wicked,” it says in verse one.

So as we reject God’s word, as we don’t meditate on and delight in it, we’re going to decline in happiness. If the secret happiness is obeying God’s law and delighting in it, then when we don’t do that, our happiness declines. And so then that just heightens all the more our desire for sexuality as being this last resort of, “Well, at least I have this pleasure of sexuality,” and making that a very ultimate thing even to the core of our identity, making our sexual expression so core to that.

Daniel Markin:

But you hear the stories over and over and over again of how empty that ultimately leaves you. And even just the stories of people who are in hookup culture. For a time, they’re just hooking up, chasing that one night experience. Maybe it’s a few nights. It’s just that physical, very intense experience. But after time, it’s almost like if that were happiness, that happiness wears off and people desire joy.

I think that joy is found in relationship, which again would lead to the flourishing of what God desires, for man and woman to be united for life, in marriage. There’s a joy that comes with that. With Elise and I, with my wife, we’re just hanging out in the living room together. The babies are asleep and we’re just talking or just not even saying anything. We’re just sitting next to each other. There’s other elements, I think that as you follow the law of the Lord, that begin to be brought to light, which I think is super powerful.

David Schuman:

Yeah, I agree. I think that’s where this passage talks about meditating on God’s word, because the more we do that, the more we realize, this really is such a good thing. I see now clear and clearer each day, how hookup culture, man, that leaves you empty in the end. It’s pleasurable for a time, but it leaves you empty. Yeah. No, I see how this is such a good thing to have a loving relationship with my wife and to have a family. Congrats to you on the twins and everything.

Daniel Markin:

Thank you.

David Schuman:

Our son, we just have one kid right now and he’s just 10 months old, so we have a new kid as well. Yeah, it’s such a beautiful thing and it’s such a longer lasting and deeper happiness. I think as we study God’s word, that just becomes clearer and clearer to us.

Daniel Markin:

Imagine here, you’re working downtown at your church and someone comes in for counseling and they come to you and they say, “Hey, David, I’ve been coming to church for a long time now. I’m hearing all the words you’re saying about going to the Lord and being here, being a part of the community, following the law of the Lord.” So let’s say they’re been doing it for six, seven months. Haven’t been here for a short time. It’s been a good amount of time. And they say to you, “I’m still not happy. I do not feel the type of happiness. I thought I would feel by following the Lord.”

How would you counsel that person? Because, just sorry to add on, I feel like that’s the experience. By the way, I’m showing my cards here. That’s a normal experience sometimes for Christians. But say someone’s a new believer, or someone listening to this program who has been trying their best to follow the law of the Lord, and yet they still feel like it hasn’t enhanced their life at all.

David Schuman:

Yeah. That’s a really good question. Like you said, I think that it can be a very common experience, especially if we’re thinking of a more dramatic conversion experience. Like, “Oh, I was…”

Daniel Markin:

Killing people. I was in a gang.

David Schuman:

“Killing people.” Yeah. Or even Paul, the Apostle Paul, I was killing, I was murdering Christians. God came to me and now I’m following him pretty dramatic. Those stories stick into our minds a bit more, understandably, but that’s not a normal conversion. Praise God, it happens sometimes and we can pray for that, but it doesn’t always happen. It’s often a much slower process.

I think it’s a very normal experience and it depends on the situation, but maybe in general, I would counsel somebody to a couple things. One, to keep trusting in God that he is going to be slowly growing you. It’s a slow process. I mean, this Psalm uses the metaphor of a tree. It uses it in maybe a slightly different way than I will just now, but a similar way.

If you think about going to Central Park in New York City. I live close to there, so I try to go for walks and runs there most days and there’s all these big, beautiful old trees. Been there for a hundred years. There’s also plenty of brand new trees that were planted this year, last year, something like that. Those aren’t the ones I notice because they haven’t had the time to grow into this mature tree with beautiful branches. A tree I can sit under, whatever. But it might be that young, new tree is getting everything it needs, it’s flourishing in the sense of it’s getting the light it needs. It’s getting the nutrients and the water it needs, but it still is going to take time to become this mature fruitful tree. One thing I would say is keep trusting in God. It does take faith to continue in your walk with Christ. Sometimes you don’t see the growth, but it’s coming, would be one thing I would say.

Another thing I would say is this is where it can be really valuable to have friends that know you well in your life. It’s oftentimes hard for ourselves to see our incremental growth. You never realize when you’re a kid that you’re growing, but you go see your grandparents and they’re like, “Oh my gosh, you’re so big.” And you’re like, “What do you mean? I’m just the same size I’ve always been.” But they can see how you’ve grown. I think good, godly friends in your life can say, “Oh, you know, I see how you’ve actually changed in this area. Maybe it’s hard for you to see because it’s been so incremental, but you have grown in this way.” So, that would be a second piece.

Then maybe a third piece would just be going back to that idea of broadening your perspective. Even if you had a horribly unhappy life, your whole life, that’s still small compared to the happiness that this Psalm has in view. It’s talking about all of eternity. And so even if you, and I don’t think this would happen, but even if you look back on your life, you’re a hundred years old, you say, “Man, I just had such an unhappy life, my entire life. I was a Christian for 80 years and I always was unhappy.” Even if that were the case, that’s nothing compared to all of eternity and the happiness that’s promised to those who follow God.

I think that would be maybe a third piece. Challenge them to broaden their perspective and that’s admittedly that’s hard because we live… If we’re 30…

Daniel Markin:

In the now.

David Schuman:

Yeah. To think about what does that even mean, eternity? But I think that’s an exercise that comes from meditating and on God’s word is, it broadens our perspective to think, “Okay, I can endure this unhappiness now because I know that I’m going to have eternal happiness.” Easier said than done, but that’s maybe a third piece, I would say.

Daniel Markin:

Yeah. Easier said than done, especially I mean, people who maybe have chronic pain their whole life, things like that. They just long for that eternity where there’s no pain. But think about that. The fact that they have that hope that they can long for in eternity, because of on the cross, the unhappiness Jesus went through in that, because he went through that, we can actually have happiness in our struggles, knowing what awaits us.

We talk about hope and that’s an amazing side of this because I think a lie that we believe is that, as soon as you become a Christian, life’s just better or it’s easier. If you’ve been walking with the Lord for any amount of time, you know that it actually you can get harder that and you know something, right?

My mentor used to always say, he’s like, “You know you’re doing something right for the kingdom because the enemy starts attacking.” So, the deeper you go in your faith, the more you begin to serve and dig into the law of the Lord, to following his law word and his design for creation, the more pain, frustration, attack you might experience. And so it’s a whole buckle up if you’re going to be a believer and yet, do what awaits? Right. Eternity with him.

David Schuman:

Yeah. This Psalm even speaks to some of those things, as well, about suffering in this life. Not to mention that, I mean, so this is Psalm 1, that this is coming from. “Happy is the man who delights in the law of the Lord.” But you read through the rest of the book of Psalms and it becomes pretty clear, pretty fast, that doesn’t mean you’re not going to suffer. There’s plenty of unjust suffering in this world. It comes not only from our own sin. We bring suffering upon ourselves. That’s true. But also from other people’s sin and just the brokenness of the world. Somebody with chronic pain, that’s probably nobody’s fault. It’s just the broken state of the world that we live in that brings this. And that’s painfully obvious throughout the book of Psalms.

So, that’s an important context as we read this first Psalm. But even within this first Psalm too, we see that this happiness doesn’t mean you’re not going to suffer in this life. I didn’t really talk about this in the article, I don’t think. But in verse three of the Psalm, it says that, this blessed man, happy man who delights in the Lord says that, “He’s like a tree planted by streams of water that yields its fruit in its seasons and in its leaf does not weather.”

It’s a metaphor picturing a tree in a desert. So for example, a couple summers ago, my wife and I went to the Grand Canyon. It was pretty incredible. I mean, huge obviously, as you can imagine. I remember, as I was thinking about the Psalm, I was reminded how we went in the month of August, so it was pretty sparse vegetation. Not very many trees. Not really, even very many shrubs or anything. But then when you look down into the bottom of this incredibly deep canyon, there’s the Colorado River running through. And alongside the river, there’s this stark contrast from everything else.

So everywhere you look, it’s basically barren land, but then you look down here and alongside this river, there’s this path of green following along the banks of the river. And that’s what this Psalm is picturing. It says that, “The happy one, the one who trusts in the Lord, delights in the law of the Lord, is like a tree planted by that river.”

So in contrast to a tree, even just 50 feet away, this tree has this steady, reliable source of life. So that even when a drought comes, it’s going to have this sustaining power within it because its roots reach down to this deeper water. So that doesn’t mean that there’s not still going to be a drought and the metaphor to that would be, it doesn’t mean we’re not going to suffer. We are going to still suffer.

And like you said, it might even be worse in some ways when we become a Christian, because we might have some level of persecution or the devil might be extra on us, trying to tempt us or harm us. So we’re still going to suffer. We might have chronic pain. We will certainly suffer some kind of physical pain in our lives and emotional pain. Those things still happen. But what the Psalm promises is that even when you experience those hardships, your experience is going to be profoundly different from those who don’t trust in the Lord because if you’re 50 feet from the water, when a drought comes, that’s probably the end. You might not survive. That tree might just die, wither away.

But if you’re by that water, when a drought comes, you’re still experience that, but you have the source of life and it’s the same for us. We have this deeper source of life, so that even when we undergo suffering, we’re not doing it alone. We can cry out to God and he hears us and he sustains us, just like water sustains a tree by a river, even in a drought.

So yeah, it doesn’t mean we don’t suffer, but it means that even in the midst of our suffering, we can have some kind of deeper, sustaining power and deeper happiness, even in the midst of that.

Daniel Markin:

Amen. Dave, we’re coming into the program, we need to come in for a landing here. I wonder if we can just get some practical stuff for ways that we can begin to cultivate happiness, individually and even in community. Now, really practical. And here’s too, you can’t say by reading your Bible individually and you can’t say by going to church. But what are some other ways maybe individually, or corporately, that we could actually begin to cultivate happiness?

David Schuman:

Yeah, that’s good. Also really good…

Daniel Markin:

Both of those are number one and number two.

David Schuman:

Yeah. Number one and two. So, what’s beyond that. Yeah. No, that’s a really good question because I think verse two of the Psalm even sets us up for that because I’ve alluded to it many times, but it says, “On his law, he meditates day and night.” What does that mean? Because it can’t mean that we literally do nothing else but read God’s word all day. So, what does it mean beyond that? So yes, that’s important. What does it mean beyond that? I think that’s an important question that even the Psalm leads us to.

I think what it has in mind is really reflecting on God’s word throughout the day. So, when it says law there it’s the Hebrew word Torah it means more so, instruction. It’s broader than just say, reading the 10 commandments day and night, right? It’s the instruction of the Lord. I think we could say it’s all of God’s word, which is his instruction to us. I think this is one way we can cultivate happiness.

For example, this morning I was working from the top floor of my building, working on a sermon and when I first went up there, the sky was just absolutely stunning. It had rained this morning and there was this beautiful line of clouds overlooking downtown Manhattan, because I’m on the Upper West Side, so I was looking south and I had this beautiful view of all these clouds to the left and then this blue sky, vivid blue sky, on the right. It was just, I don’t know if you can capture it from my description, but it was…

Daniel Markin:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David Schuman:

I loved it and I think one way that we cultivate happiness is, pausing in that moment and just thanking God and praising him for this. That is I think, a way that we meditate on his law as it says, because it’s reminding ourselves, say in the book of James, that, “Every good thing is from God.” And so when I reflect on that word, maybe I’m not sitting there reading the book of James, but I’m looking at this beautiful sky and I’m reminded by something that I read in the God’s word. “Oh, every good gift is from God.” Wow. Praise God for this beautiful sky that I’m enjoying right now. I think that would be a one way that we can cultivate happiness, individually.

Then good question you asked too, about how can we do this communally? Let me think. Maybe one really important way is just encouraging each other with God’s word. So, maybe somebody is going through chronic pain and maybe I can encourage that person by even just checking in on them because I know I should care for people. Then if I am the person who has that chronic pain, I’m receiving this care and I’m like, “Yeah, it is really good to belong to a community of people who care for me, like Christ cares for me.” And when somebody checks in on me and says, “Hey, how are you doing today? I was thinking of your praying for you.” That can communicate that care to me. I think that also really is an application to meditating on God’s word, day and night, because we see, oh, this is something that’s good to do and it really does bring about happiness in all of our relationships and bring about much flourishing. So, that would be one thing that comes to mind. It’s a good question.

Daniel Markin:

Yeah. Hey, thank you for that. Thank you for all this spending time with us and David talking through this with us. And man, I just wish you and pray that your ministry in Manhattan will just continue to flourish and so just going to be thinking about you and your ministry, your church, and praying for you guys. But thanks again for being on the program and spending time with us.

David Schuman:

Yeah. Thank you so much. It’s great to be here. Thanks for your prayers and for having me on the program. Appreciate it.

Speaker 1:

Thanks so much for listening. If you want to hear more, subscribe on iTunes or Spotify, or visit us online at indoubt.ca or indoubt.com. We’re also on social media, so make sure to follow us on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter.

speaker 3:

Indoubt is a ministry that exists to engage young people with biblical truth and provide answers for many of today’s questions of life, faith and culture. Through audio programs, articles and blogs, indoubt reaches out to encourage, strengthen and disciple young adults.

To check out all the resources of indoubt, visit indoubt.ca in Canada, or indoubt.com in the US. Or if you’re in a position, or share a passion for the ministry of young people, you can support the ongoing mission of engaging a new generation with the truth of the Bible.

First, you can pray for this ministry. And second, and if you are able, please consider a financial gift by visiting indoubt.ca in Canada, or indoubt.com in the US. Your gift of any amount is such a blessing and an answer to prayer. Thanks.