Ep. 300: Purity Is Seeing More

Announcer:

Welcome to the indoubt Podcast, where we explore the challenging topics that young adults often face. Each week, we talk with guests who help answer questions of faith, life, and culture, connecting them to our daily experiences and God’s word. For more info on indoubt, visit indoubt.ca or indoubt.com.

Daniel Markin:

Hey, this is Daniel Markin with indoubt. On today’s episode, I have Brian Walker on the show with me today. Brian is a biblical counselor. He does Christian counseling with his organization, where they counsel people a lot of times online, but he also helps with other churches and helping them to counsel well. We’re actually talking about purity, talking about sexual purity, along with all the different aspects that come with that. It’s a big discussion around how do we live well in a world that’s so oversexualized, but yet how do we continue to pursue the Lord? Even we go into talking about shame and how do we live lives that are not filled with shame and begin to trust the Lord even with those things as well. Lots to unpack in this episode. I hope you enjoy. Hey, welcome to indoubt, my names is Daniel Markin. It’s Dan joined by Brian Walker. Brian, how are you doing today?

Brian Walker:

Doing great. Pleasure to be with you.

Daniel Markin:

Pleasure to be with you as well. For our listeners who might not know who you are, you are currently a writer for The Gospel Coalition, but you do a bunch of other things as well as your main ministry. You’ve written an article here that we want to discuss with you. We actually think this is going to be a great thing to dive into. Before we jump in, why don’t you tell us a little bit about who you are, where you came from, or sometimes as I say, what’s your deal? Yeah, go ahead.

Brian Walker:

Yeah. Married my wife, Kristen, 22 years. We have three children, two of whom are launching into adulthood. Our oldest two are 20 and 18, our youngest is 14. We are launching some and have one who’s got a couple years of high school left ahead of him. My full-time role is with Anchored Hope. I’m the Director of Counselor Development for Anchored Hope, which is an online counseling ministry. We serve the local church. We serve, really, any individuals needing help and hope rooted in the gospel. We have counselors scattered all over the country, one in Brazil. Currently, if my math is correct, I think we have 17 counselors at the moment and adding to that regularly.

Daniel Markin:

Wow! That sounds like a machine of a ministry right there. Was there someone maybe in your life who really impacted you, that you’re like, “Man, I want to be a counselor one day too.” Or was it when you just start working the church, you’re like, “Oh, I actually should just keep pursuing this”?

Brian Walker:

I think more than anything, when I was in seminary, a friend of mine handed me a book by Ed Welch called When People are Big and God is Small. The book really deals with fear of man issues and the way that impacts us and the way the scriptures address that. As I read that book, it was like I was seeing my own heart on display. There was a level of self-understanding that came from that that opened my eyes to the need in my own life for that, and then the desire to be able to preach and teach and come alongside others in a way that enables people to understand the dynamic operations of the heart. There’s, in a sense, a pattern to how sin manifests itself in our lives and sometimes we don’t slow down to examine that, we don’t slow down and know ourselves. We see the results of it and we say, “I need to stop doing that,” and then people get stuck because they realize, “I don’t understand all the why behind why I keep going back to this particular sin?”

One of the things I love is being able to slow down with people and help them understand the why. Why is it that sin is often so appealing? Why is it that our hearts gravitate toward things we know are destructive? Why is it we so often struggle to break addictive patterns in our lives. I love dwelling in that. When I do counseling, I describe it in three phases. There’s stop the bleeding. It’s a triage. Is there anything so destructive that we just need to focus on bringing some relief in that area? But where we spend most of our time is in the second phase, what I call heart surgery, which is what’s going on at the level of the heart? What are the controlling desires that are manifesting themselves in this person’s response to life? Then, flowing out of that is what I call rehab, which is what are the new godly rhythms and habits that should flow from that transformation that we’re trusting God to work by his spirit?

Daniel Markin:

As you’re working and talking with people by nature of working with all these different churches, you probably noticed some patterns. What are some of the whys that pop up the most?

Brian Walker:

Yeah. I think right now, the thing we see most is why do I feel anxious all the time? There are a few things that we saw steadily increase as the pandemic wore on. Not that these issues weren’t present before, but I think maybe they were more under the surface and there was something about both the isolation of the pandemic and the polarization that began to manifest in virtually every area of life, especially here in the US, that took the lid off for a lot of folks and made them feel like things that seemed stable, things that seemed I could rely on these aspects of life remaining the same. Suddenly, when that came unraveled, there was just a massive increase in anxiety. The number of people that at Anchored Hope that we saw coming to us to address both anxiety and depression-related issues and then sometimes out of that anxiety, leading into anger, anxiety leading into conflict. That seems to be the why that people right now really want to drill down into is, why can’t I get a handle on anxiety in my life?

Daniel Markin:

Right. It’s tough because there’s a lie that floats around in our Christian world where it’s like, “Hey, if you believe in Jesus, there is no anxiety.” Everything is melted away, you’re going to be completely free from these things, and pretty quickly, I think life comes at you pretty fast and you realize, “Oh, yes, I’m a new creation in Christ, but yet I am still in a broken world. I am still broken. Still struggle with sin.” Those things, obviously, all play into that and all factor into that.

Brian Walker:

Yeah. I think we often, we receive that command not to be anxious as if it is more of a command than an invitation. When we see the heart of Christ as he is telling us over and over again, “Do not worry. Be anxious for nothing,” we tend to receive that in a way that actually adds to our anxiety, because we hear it as a rebuke that’s almost as if he’s just disappointed and he is just saying, “Why can’t you get it together?” When actually, I think in context, those are really more invitations that say, “I’m here, I’m with you, I’m present in the midst of your suffering. I’m present in the midst of this crazy world that feels unpredictable. I’m in control. It’s not just a cold sovereignty. It’s a loving, I’m wielding my power lovingly on behalf of my children.”

Just that drawing near elements of all of those repeated words, do not be anxious. I liken it to, when I was a kid, I grew up in a Northwest Ohio where we had a lot of tornadoes. When those storms would roll through, my dad would lead the family down into the basement. We had a place under the stairs that we would go until they passed and he would often say to my brother and I, “Don’t be afraid.” It wasn’t a rebuke, it was actually a reassurance, a reminder, “I’m with you. We know what this is. We’re going to get through it.” How much more God who spoke the universe into existence, as he says that to us is doing so as a father, reassuring us of his presence and his love.

Daniel Markin:

Yeah. That’s even made even more beautiful and amazing because the father knows that we don’t have it all together. We try and hide it from him and we try and hide it from everyone else and we pretend we all have it together, and yet he knows that we don’t. For him to still say that, “Do not be anxious?” Like I know that you don’t have it together. That’s a really beautiful thing. Changing gears here a little bit. We have your article here from Gospel Coalition on Christian Living. We’re talking about purity and your article’s titled, “Purity Means Seeing More, Not Less”. We had just briefly chatted before the program, but as you talk about purity, we talk about sexual purity. With that though, I feel like there’s a few nuanced things we should dive into before we just jump into this.

One of them being that, and you brought this up and I completely agree with you, that so many times we talk about purity and some of your work and counseling and all that stuff, we tend to only think that matters in just sexual purity. Like that’s the only thing that matters and if I’m sexually pure, then everything else is taken care of before God. It’s not as simple as that. You can be in a really good season where you’re sexually pure and yet filled with anger. You could be lying, you could be doing all sorts of other sins that aren’t as blatant as sexual sin. Do you have anything else as you think about that that tends to play into that situation of. You mentioned it’s a very truncated thing. Why is it so truncated?

Brian Walker:

Yeah. I think there are some sins that we tend to form our identity around on more than others, and some of it is just what feels taboo in a culture or in the church. We live in a world where sexuality is the basis of one’s identity. There’s a Christian version of that, I think, where those who struggle in this area tend to collapse our identity down into how well this one area is going. In working with those who struggle with pornography addictions, my identity rests on how long I’ve gone without looking at pornography and where that truncates the view is in two ways. If things are going well, it can lead to a truncated pride like, “Well, that things are going great.” A lot of blind spots begin to form where we may not see other areas where the Lords at work, other areas where we need to put our hearts under the microscope, whether it’s pride or anger, or just selfishness manifesting in other areas of life.

The other side of that is there can be a despondency. When things are not going well, there can be just this utter collapse of identity that happens where a person says, “That’s just all I am. Like, here I go again. That’s who I am.” The shame sin cycle begins to just take a downward spiral. I think the Lord calls us to an identity that is larger than that, it’s more holistic, a view of purity that says purity is not just about the absence of something or the negation of something in my life. But it really is about reflecting the image of God. God’s called me to imitate him, to be like him, to reflect the likeness of Christ.

I think about Matthew 5:2 that says, Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God. Or Matthew 5:8 rather, Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God. Heart purity, which I think is talking about more than just our sexuality there is both opening our eyes to see more of who God is, but also as we see more of God, then that’s transforming us and feeding back into that purity that he calls us to.

Daniel Markin:

Yeah. I think with that too comes in honesty. To be pure in heart too is honest with God about what you’re struggling with. Whether it is just sexual sin or other types of sin, I think it’s inviting him into that, where now you’re walking with him, bringing him into those things and asking him to help you. I think that also plays into the idea of being pure in heart. Do you find in your counseling, does sexual sin affect people differently than other types of sins? Do you know what I mean by that?

As you tend to counsel people, because it’s a real prominent issue and we live in a society that is so oversexualized, it’s insane, and even you turn on your phone and you’re getting bombarded with images. This goes for men and women. You could go off of social media, watch a commercial, boom, you’re bombarded with images. You could not watch TV, you drive past the billboard, boom, you’re bombarded with oversexualized images. Is there something different about the way sexual sin affects people as opposed to anger or lying? In your experience, what are some of the things that you’re seeing?

Brian Walker:

Yeah. It does seem to strike more at the core of how they view themselves in general. This is not always the case, but I think some of it has to do with the way the church has handled these things. The article I reference both some of the positive and negative elements of purity culture, and I think one of the negative aspects of purity culture was it really had an avoidance emphasis. When you grow up in a culture and an environment that has an avoidance emphasis around issues of sexuality, then what happens is that it can elevate that sin in such a way that it begins to shape your sense of who you are and can, I think, open up a more powerful experience of shame. Shame is often experienced on the horizontal, so people feel their guilt vertically in the presence of God they know, “I’ve sinned against God. I know that this is wrong.” Yet shame has to do with how we view ourselves both vertically. Sometimes people struggle with the sense of God just cannot forgive me for this, but also horizontally. People see me in a certain way.

I talked to one counselor, you said it, it feels like there’s an expression in the book of Malachi that talks about having dung on your face and he said, “That’s what I feel like when I reflect on my sin. I feel like this is just what people see. This is who I am, and there’s no way to, as much as I try to scrub myself clean, there’s no way to remove it.” I think there are a lot of factors that play into that and again, God takes our sexuality very seriously and there’s a strong emphasis on pursuing sexual purity in the scriptures, and yet I think there’s also some unhealthy ways in which we’ve elevated that beyond other aspects of sin in our lives.

Daniel Markin:

Yeah. One of the ways that I’ve seen it with my ministry with young adults is you go your whole life being told sex is for marriage, sex is for marriage, sex is for marriage, which it is. But then you get married and I know people who really have a hard time with switching the other way being like, “Oh wait! No, this is actually a good thing and a desirable thing,” because their whole life has been told you have to avoid this thing and that all of a sudden flick a switch and say now you should go do this thing can be a really tricky thing for people.

Brian Walker:

Yeah. There’s a sense in which that the way we’ve talked about these things leads to the sense of, if I’m not one of those who waited until marriage, then somehow I’m marred in a way that’s irredeemable. Man, what a powerful thing that can be in a person’s life if there’s one area where they say the gospel reaches all these other areas, but in this area, maybe I know on one level I’m forgiven, but there can be this sense of I’m forever damaged goods, because I didn’t follow the call that true love waits. Man, I want people to know and hear the good news of the gospel that we have a savior who not only forgives, but he also restores. He makes whole people who have been broken and damaged by sin in every area and every realm of life and sexual sin is not excluded from that.

Daniel Markin:

Yeah. With that too is not just someone who’s just been watching pornography, it can be people who were sexually abused too, feeling it wasn’t of their choosing as a kid and they feel like they’re damaged goods and things. What a beautiful thing the gospel is and that we are restored, we are a new creation and there is a beautiful side of that with the Lord taking away the shame. I want to dive into that then, talking about shame. As you think about purity cultures, you think about biblical purity and counseling people, and then the topic of shame comes up. How are you able to … tell us the hope of the gospel as it pertains to shame that the Lord takes away our shame and what does that look like? What does that begin to feel like?

Brian Walker:

Yeah. I think asking what it looks like is the right question, because it’s one of those truths that people can know intellectually and not feel it personally. They know the cross deals with shame. They know that Jesus died to remove not only our guilt, but also our shame. But a passage that’s been very helpful for me and I’ve noticed that people seem to find help in this and because it visualizes it is Zechariah 3:1-5. You have Joshua, the high priest, who is representing the nation of Israel and the many sins of Israel. He’s covered in filthy garments and Satan, the accuser, is standing there and accusing Joshua. There’s this beautiful picture of the Lord intervening. The Lord’s saying, the Lord rebuking Satan for this accusation and then the angel of the Lord comes and removes the filthy garments that Joshua was wearing and he replaces them with clean garments and puts a clean turban on his head.

I think that that visual is what the gospel writers are picking up on as they speak of the righteousness of Christ as a robe of righteousness or Paul in Galatians 3 where he says, As many of you as we’re baptized into Christ have been clothed with Christ, you’ve put on Christ. Just that visual of he becomes the covering who reshapes our identity, his righteousness, his purity becomes not just a status that’s abstracted from who we are, but it actually becomes who we are. He, in Colossians 3, he says, Your life is hidden with God in Christ and Christ is your life. Just that idea that he begins to cover the things that we are so tempted to look at and say, “That’s what tells me who I am,” and he gives us that robe of righteousness and removes our filthy garments. Just a beautiful picture and I think there’s something about the visual of that that maybe hits a little deeper than just saying, “You’re forgiven and you don’t need to feel ashamed anymore.”

Daniel Markin:

Yeah. As you counsel people through this and counsel them through shame and talk about purity, what breaks your heart the most as you talk with people and maybe you see patterns? What is one of the most painful things for you as you counsel people?

Brian Walker:

Well, it’s painful to see marriages that are deeply affected by repeated sexual sin. It’s painful to see how that affects both the one who’s been affected by it, the victim, in a sense, and the one who continues to pursue it, because it so often creates a dynamic between them that is so difficult to find compassion when you’ve been hurt by your spouse’s sexual sin. It’s very difficult to now view that spouse with eyes of compassion that say, “I long for healing and wholeness in his or her life, not just because of what this is, because of how that will make my life easier and how that will remove a burden from me, but because I sincerely want my spouse to reflect the image of Christ as sexual sin wears down a marriage so often that compassion is lost in the midst of it.”

Then it just becomes a real embittered struggle for, often, the person who has committed the sin is struggling to prove himself or prove herself through progress and loses sight of the gospel, that idea of Christ is my righteousness, he’s my sanctification, he’s my redemption. On the other side, the person who’s been hurt by that sin loses sight of that as well, because there’s a sense of this pain runs so deep that I’m just not sure I can ever trust again. The challenge is helping that person take that first step out. Clearly, there needs to be an established track record of trustworthiness for the hurt spouse to begin to trust again. But as that’s established, then there’s the scary moment of, “I’m seeing trustworthiness, I’m seeing what really looks like a sustained record of repentance,” and so how do I take that first step and say, “I’m going to trust even before I feel completely ready,” because that’s the only way trust actually grows. Otherwise, it wouldn’t be trust.

Daniel Markin:

Right. It’s a step of faith, but what? Are you going to get ripped, let down again? That’s the great fear, right?

Brian Walker:

Yeah. Ultimately, what both the sexual sinner and the person who’s been affected by that sin needs to see is the faithfulness we need to rely on is the faithfulness of Christ. That’s where that step of trust has to start out and really not just start out, beginning, middle and end, that trust is completely rooted in the faithfulness of Christ, and so it’s saying, “I see a growing trustworthiness in my spouse, and I know that it’s not perfect, but I know that God who is faithful is at work here, and so on that basis, I’m going to take that first step and begin to trust again.”

Daniel Markin:

Definitely. In your article here, you have three main points. You say one, we need to see more of ourselves, two, we need to see more of others, and three, we need to see more of God. Our listeners can go back and read the article for more nuance. These three points that you have, what’s the common theme in all of them? Need to see more of ourselves, see more of others and see more of God, could you just give us a brief like, what is each one of those in two sentences? But then, what’s the theme that ties all three of those together?

Brian Walker:

Yeah. Seeing more of ourselves is that holistic view that God’s larger agenda in my life is to reflect Christ’s likeness. Seeing more of others is recognizing that God has called us to relate to one another and members of the opposite sex as image bearers. Paul instructs Timothy to teach people in the church in Ephesus to relate to, for young men to relate to younger women as sisters in all purity, which means that there’s a relationship there of respect and friendship, and we see it in the life of Christ. Christ pays attention to the women who are often objectified and marginalized in the first century. But he does so in a perfectly safe and non-sexual way, in a way that dignifies them. Then, seeing more of God is just that recognition that purity comes as the Lord opens our eyes to his beauty, his glory.

It’s not the denial of beauty, it’s actually having our eyes open to the greater glory and beauty of God. I think about 2nd Corinthians, 3:18, We all with unveiled face beholding the glory of the Lord are being transformed from one degree of glory into the next. The thing that ties all those together is that in each case, whether ourselves or others or God, is that the pursuit of purity is about opening our eyes. It’s about seeing more. It’s not ultimately about diverting our eyes, although that’s certainly part of it and there are boundaries that are necessary and I’ve referenced those in the article. Ultimately, purity comes as our eyes are opened wider and we begin to see more as Jesus sees.

Daniel Markin:

So good, Brian, we should come in for a landing here for our time together, but I just want to ask you this for listeners. This goes for men and women and I think just for everybody, because everyone’s going to be in a different season of fighting sexual sin. You might be in a really good season, things are going really well, might be a really difficult season. I just think it’s unavoidable in our culture that you’re going to experience this. I don’t think you can run from it. I think we need to know how to fight it. Well, if that makes sense and how to continue to live faithfully. For those who are really struggling with it, what would you recommend or would be some of the first steps to begin to live a life of purity?

Brian Walker:

Yeah. The first thing I would encourage them to do is to begin to talk about it. Find a trusted friend, someone who you know who loves you, who loves the Lord, who’s willing to speak the truth into your life, but to do so in a way that really is rooted in love and not just condemnation. It feels counterintuitive, but the first step really is knowing and understanding the gospel that because the gospel is true, there is freedom to openly talk about all the areas in which we are broken, in which sin is still present in our lives, because we know now we can do that without that shaking us to our core in terms of our identity that is secure who we are in Christ is secure. Preaching the gospel to yourself is actually the beginning point of being able to have the open confession.

I have a pastor friend who would say, because the gospel is true, whenever I feel the accusation of others or of my own heart, I can always say, “Actually, it’s far worse than that and praise God that God’s grace is even greater.” Being honest, stepping out into the light and trusting that Jesus moves toward you in that moment, he moves toward you in the midst of your sin and brokenness and not away from you, is the first step. Then finding loving accountability, going back to the triage model in terms of stop the bleeding. There are some practical things that need to happen. What are the environmental things that are often leading me into sin? Whether that’s phone and some measures that need to be taken in terms of accountability with media, but then, the heart surgery component is really where the heavy lifting happens.

A lot of times, it’s about understanding the on-ramps. When I meet with men and women who struggle in this area, they often say the visuals are not the thing that lead me to this. It’s often the despondency of feeling overwhelmed or stressed or just needing a sense of reward. Understanding what are the underlying on-ramps of the heart that leads you into sexual sin is vitally important and trusting that Christ will not only reveal those things, but begin to redirect the affections of your heart as you run to him. Then, from that again, the rehab, what are the godly rhythms and habits?

There’s a brain element to this, where the neuro pathways of the brain are trained by the things we go to over and over again, and so in addressing an addictive issue, it’s really important to understand that new rhythms, new habits are part of reshaping those pathways, giving us places that are healthy and right and good and true, where we now begin to naturally go when we feel stressed and overwhelmed. Being able to address it in all three of those areas, I think, is really important. But if you’re right in the throes of it, stop the bleeding and then begin to ask some of those serious, serious heart questions.

Daniel Markin:

Brian, thank you for all of this, man. Thank you for your time and just walking us through this issue, and I was just really blessed by this, so I appreciate it and hopefully, we can have you back in program again.

Brian Walker:

Yeah. Thank you. Great to be with you.

Announcer:

Thanks so much for listening. If you want to hear more, subscribe on iTunes or Spotify or visit us online at indoubt.ca or indoubt.com. We’re also on social media, so make sure to follow us on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter.

Daniel Markin:

indoubt is a ministry that exists to engage young people with biblical truth and provide answers for many of today’s questions of life, faith, and culture. Through audio programs, articles, and blogs, indoubt reaches out to encourage, strengthen and disciple young adults. To check out all the resources of indoubt, visit indoubt.ca in Canada or indoubt.com in the US. Or if you’re in a position or share a passion for the ministry of young people, you can support the ongoing mission of engaging a new generation with the truth of the Bible. First, you can pray for this ministry and second, and if you are able, please consider a financial gift by visiting indoubt.ca in Canada or indoubt.com in the US. Your gift of any amount is such a blessing and an answer to prayer. Thanks.