Ep. 304: Spreading the Gospel as Exiles

Announcer:

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Daniel Markin:

Hey, welcome to indoubt. This is Daniel Markin, and today I’m joined by Elliot Clark. Elliot’s an author, and he is talking to us today about evangelism as exiles. And so he has a book on that and we’re going to be discussing a little bit of those ideas. But in Canada today, we are exiles, right? Christianity is not necessarily looked highly upon. It’s maybe scary to evangelize. We feel like people are just going to antagonize us and that we’re just going to be a bother to people. And so we look into evangelism and how do we do this in a world where we are exiles?

 Hey, welcome to indoubt. This is Daniel Markin, and today I’m joined by Elliot Clark, who is the author of a book that I want to talk about with him called Evangelism as Exiles, talking about this idea. And so maybe before we dive into that, Elliot, good to have you here. Thank you for joining us. Welcome to the program.

Elliot Clark:

Yeah, it’s great to be here. Thanks for having me.

Daniel Markin:

Yeah, man. Hey, tell us a little bit about who you are and maybe some of the reasons that led you to write this book in the first place, because I think it’s a really interesting title. And I mean, the title grips me, the topic grips me and I think is more relevant than ever.

Elliot Clark:

Yeah. So just a little bit about myself. I serve with a ministry called Training Leaders International. We provide theological training and resources to indigenous pastors around the world, as well as international pastors in North America. I’m currently based in the US, but previously lived in Central Asia for a number of years. And the book, and many of the stories in the book are based on those experiences. But a little bit of a background for the book was really two things. One, just my personal study of the book of 1 Peter. The book is based really on the letter of 1 Peter and how that letter in the New Testament is unique for having really a lot of touch points with the topic of evangelism.

People might notice reading the New Testament, there isn’t a whole lot of instruction on evangelism in the Epistles, but 1 Peter has a good number of, I think, application points related to evangelism. So that caught my attention, but also Peter writes to his audience and addresses them as exiles, not literal physical exiles, people who are displaced from their homeland, but he’s writing to people who are really social outcasts in their communities. They’re mocked and ridiculed for their faith, they’re laughed at for their morals, and he’s calling them to … how to live out their faith, but also reach out to others when they live in that kind of environment of marginalization and exile.

So as someone who formerly lived in a Muslim majority nation, came back to live in the US and I just saw Christians really struggling, especially in a post-Christian culture now, thinking about how in the world are we supposed to do evangelism if we don’t have maybe some of the power and influence culturally that we used to have. So I just see the letter of 1 Peter really speaking into that context. It can help us where we are. I think it helps me when I’m in a Muslim majority nation.

Daniel Markin:

Absolutely. Well, and you would definitely feel like an exile there. And then maybe in some ways coming back to North America, that might have been a little bit of a culture shock, because depending how long you were gone, culture changes really fast. And I feel like in the last three years, culture has changed very quickly, even around Christianity. And we’re based in Canada and so from what I can tell, it’s almost even more hostile, more post-Christian than the United States because you still have many pockets. I mean, there’s many pockets in Canada, more conservative religious pockets. There’s more of them in the United States, but I tend to see it more of a … there’s still a religious or Christian fabric that’s more pulled on or grasped onto by many Americans as opposed to Canada, where Canada is unique because we’re basing … we take a lot of cues from the United States, but also from England.

And so I think culturally and Christian-wise, we’re closer to more of that of England where it’s very post Christian and more proud of our secularism. And so in many ways, many of our listeners, we actually are exiles. And I’ve always thought of Peter when he is writing that too. We’re exiles of our future home. So every single one of us too, we’re looking to Heaven. And maybe that’s incorrect understanding of exile in that way, but I’ve always thought of that touch point was it doesn’t matter where you are. You could live in a really, really Christian pocket and still we’re exiles of our future home and of Heaven with the Lord.

Elliot Clark:

Yeah, I totally agree.

Daniel Markin:

Yeah, so tell me this. Living in, you said in Asia, right? And then it sounds like you were … so in Asia it was a predominantly Muslim, and then North America. What were some of the contrasts or maybe the differences that you noticed firstly there culturally and as far as people are receptive to the gospel? But then how is sharing the gospel there differently? And even this phrase of sharing the gospel, what does that even mean? Is that a term we should be using or should we just be saying evangelism? I’d love to hear your thoughts on that.

Elliot Clark:

Sure. Well, you have multiple questions there, so-

Daniel Markin:

Yeah, I do. Yeah.

Elliot Clark:

 Remind me if I miss one.

Daniel Markin:

Sure.

Elliot Clark:

 Yeah. I think there one of the main differences I would say is their people don’t assume that they have cultural power and influence. They’ve never really had it, at least not in the last 1800 years in that part of the world, Christians, that is. And so they just assume that they are exiles and they experience persecution. Again, where we were living, it wasn’t political, physical persecution very much. It was more on the social and familial level. And so-

Daniel Markin:

Shame stuff, like being shamed and-

Elliot Clark:

 Absolutely.

Daniel Markin:

 And what does that look like in that context?

Elliot Clark:

Yeah.

Daniel Markin:

What would that type of shame look like?

Elliot Clark:

Yeah, shame and exclusion I would say go hand in hand. And that usually looks like being kicked out of a family, have the potential of being mocked and ridiculed in the classroom. If you’re going to acknowledge Christianity in your workplace, you might lose your job or you might not have opportunities for getting a raise or a promotion. And so people are very hesitant. And when you’re born in that country, you are identified immediately as a Muslim. It just goes on your state issued identification card. And so to get to a point where you acknowledge openly, I am a Christian, it affects everything because that identification card goes with you wherever you go, when you go to the hospital, when you go off to your mandatory military service or anything. If you’re publicly acknowledging Christ and calling yourself a Christian, it’s just going to play out in every spear of life.

And so evangelism is not one that’s approached from a position of power and influence. It’s one where you’re in weakness and I think that actually gives you a certain leverage that’s positive. And so you mentioned earlier the difference between the UK and the US and Canada maybe in the middle. I think my book’s actually had a little more traction in some cases with a UK audience because they read it and they say, Oh, yeah, that’s where we are. And that some of the audience in the United States or readers might say, Well, we’re not there yet, or that’s not really happening. But the book came out in 2019. I think they might have a different opinion even just in the last few years to see how that’s happening.

So yeah, the way I open the book is just to talk about how we typically view evangelism is something that we would invite someone to the church, we would hold an event, we would do some kind of outreach where we draw people in. But the problem is you don’t necessarily have that opportunity in a situation or cultural location where you don’t have cultural … and that you don’t have that credibility. And so how can you do evangelism when people look down on you automatically or their suspect of the church or they hate the Bible or whatever for its misogyny or bigotry or whatever? So as that becomes more of a reality in the US, I think we’re going to have to change our approach. And it’s going to look more, I think, the way Christians throughout history and throughout the world do evangelism today. You asked about sharing the gospel, I take issue with that a little bit, and there’s a story in the book about how my eyes opened.

Daniel Markin:

That phrase, the sharing the gospel, that phrase, Yeah.

Elliot Clark:

Yeah. Yeah, that phrase, sharing the gospel, it’s become just the default way we talk about evangelism, at least in the United States. I can’t speak for Canada specifically, but I’m just a little concerned that if we only talk about sharing the gospel, sharing is something we do when someone wants what we have. So what do you do when the person next to you or your close friend or your family member, whoever isn’t interested in Christianity? Do you just then back out of the conversation? Because there’s nothing really to share if they don’t want it.

But when you look at the New Testament, it’s clear that just even the Greek words for evangelism and the verb form of evangelism implies preaching and heralding the gospel, it’s making good news known. And you do that whether people want to hear it or not. So I simply want to push a little gently, I think, against our notion of only sharing the gospel because I think it translates into a very passive approach that if God gives me opportunities, i.e, if people want what I have to say, then I’ll do evangelism.

Daniel Markin:

Yeah, that’s something like … as you’re describing that, I’m thinking through all the ways that in churches I’ve been through, ministries I’ve been a part of, a lot of times those evangelism things, it’s like, Hey, come to this barbecue. You get something. You’re being almost rewarded for going. Hey, come to this event. There’s going to be candy. Do you know what I mean? Or prizes and we tend to … it’s an interesting dilemma because sometimes you can bring people to … if you win people to your church with the really good coffee, but your church has no substance to it, well, you’ve just won them to a cool coffee club. Right? And so there’s a phrase, what you win them with is what you win them to.

 And so in many cases, not always, right, but if you’re just drawing people with a fun barbecue and not bringing the gospel to bear in their lives, then what do you really invite … it’s just a glorified barbecue. And so I actually really appreciate what you’re saying because it is interesting. Christians, we always actually work from a place of weakness, and it’s almost like God prefers that. You look through the Old Testament and the new, he just constantly chooses people who are disasters and people who are weak to display his strength. And so maybe I’d love to hear your thoughts on this. Are you surprised that we’re heading in many places in the world, more of an exiled place? Or does that seem like actually that’s the way God would almost prefer it?

Elliot Clark:

Well, I do think that’s, I would say the norm throughout history and throughout much of the world. In some ways it seems like the West and certainly in the United States has been a blip on the radar over the last couple hundred years, just in the environment that is so nurturing and friendly to the gospel. Now, that doesn’t mean that people haven’t suffered for their faith. I think in many ways we’ve … and this is to me, the power of 1 Peter in some ways, is we read the New Testament and read about suffering and we think, Oh, people being beheaded, people drug before lions, but 1 Peter’s not written at that time. It’s written to people who are just made fun of for what they believe and people who are ostracized because they don’t want to take part in drunken orgies, 1 Peter 4.

Well, I mean you can see them, that Christians have been suffering in this country in a similar way in the West for a long time, at least that was my middle school experience, high school experience, college experience. So I think part of what we need to do is just broaden our understanding of suffering and exile. It’s not nearly as severe as we make it out to be sometimes. But then, yes, I just think that as you said, the Lord delights to use weak vessels and the message of the cross is powerful when it’s carried by a suffering servant, so I’m not surprised.

I don’t want to be someone who hates history and hates that we’ve had this wonderful period of, in many ways, flourishing in the West for Christian values. And Lord willing, I’d love to see that again as far as I don’t celebrate the changes that are happening in society. That’s not the case that are bringing about calling good evil, and evil good. I don’t delight in that, but I just think that the light shines the brightest in those times. And it’s easy for us, I think when we have the power and influence to become addicted to it and to think that becomes the means God will use to advance his cause.

 One example of this, I think, in the US is, and maybe you might laugh at this as a Canadian, but Americans just love to see celebrity Christians on the football field or who knows what succeed and then do some act that shows they’re a Christian. And that’s our great hope of evangelism for us, is God using a celebrity. And I think of course he can, but my understanding of the way God typically works is not to use those people, but to use the weak and the lowly and the poor and the broken.

Daniel Markin:

So tell me this, walk me through a little bit of how you structure your book, because you mentioned, you started a little bit about exile. I’m sure there’s like some stories in there. Talk us through what we can expect, some of the things we might pick up in your book.

Elliot Clark:

Sure. So it’s a thematic book in that I try to trace basically six themes in the letter of 1 Peter. The introduction makes the case that when we begin our path in exile, we’re really just joining Christ. He was the one who was the first chosen exile. And I make that case not because I’m trying to be creative, but because I think that’s what Peter does in his letter by connecting the experience of believers in the first century with the experience of Christ as himself, a chosen stone rejected by men. They too are elect exiles.

And interestingly, Peter puts himself in that category. When you get to the end of 1 Peter, he’s writing from Rome and he says, the chosen ones from Babylon greets you. So you can tell even then in Rome, Peter views himself as an elect exile, the church there. And so I see this as just a fundamental way of understanding ourselves as Christians, that we might be shamed by the world, but there’s incredible glory by being associated with the risen Christ. So that’s where the first chapter begins, the hope of glory.

And then I trace other themes, the theme of holiness, the theme of showing respect for all proclamation to declaring his praises and then living or fighting fear with fears, another chapter where it’s just interesting to me. It caught my attention as I was studying 1 Peter, that if you were writing to people who were suffering, probably the last thing you would ever think to do is to encourage them with fear, and yet that’s what Peter does. He’ll bring in the topic of fear often, but it’s this fear of the Lord and not of your opponents that really enables you to speak the gospel.

Daniel Markin:

So what is the fear of the Lord, and how is that different from fear of opponents?

Elliot Clark:

Yeah.

Daniel Markin:

 Because one is a good thing, fear of the Lord, we understand it’s a good thing. One, we understand as a bad thing, fear of opponents. So how are those two different?

Elliot Clark:

Well, I would say that for one, they’re different in the sense that one is appropriate and one is not. So the object of the fear determines its appropriateness. There is no place for fear, right? Jesus will say, Don’t fear the one who can destroy body, only fear the one who can destroy your body’s soul in hell. And you can see this is connected to evangelism as well. And Paul’s thought, 2 Corinthians 5, “Knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade others.” Because we know we’re all going to stand before God’s judgment, so we want to persuade others. We want to practice evangelism and call people to repentance because we have a genuine fear of one day, we know all of us will stand before the Lord and his judgment seat.

That fear, of course, I think many people will rightly acknowledge. We don’t want a debilitating fear. We don’t want an awe that leads to inaction. This is meant to be an inspiring fear. I don’t think it’s just respect. I think it really is fear. But it’s helpful to see that in scripture, when someone fears someone, what do they do? They try to please that person. If you have the fear of man, if that’s a problem that you’re struggling with, where you’re always concerned about other people, it doesn’t look like fear, as in I’m afraid everyone’s going to attack me. It manifests itself in, you’re always trying to please others. You’re always trying to do things that make them like you. Well, I think that shows them what an appropriate fear of the Lord is.

An appropriate fear of the Lord is desiring to please him and to delight our heavenly Father, and so that’s how I would describe the fear of the Lord. It is a fearful reverence and fear of judgment. It’s also just a desire to delight and please, so I think that that inspires us to evangelism. And we know the desire to please people is probably one of the main factors. At least I would argue it’s one of the main reasons why people don’t do evangelism more often is they want to please people. We might call that fear. Many people would say fear is the number one reason why we don’t evangelize more often. But I think if we just even drill down a little deeper, it’s shame and embarrassment and it’s a desire to please people.

Daniel Markin:

How have you in your life worked through some of that fear? Because I feel that fear. It’s Just uncomfortable sharing the gospel with people or evangelizing, that instant rejection. You just don’t want to be that guy. How have you in your life worked through that? I’d love to learn how you do that.

Elliot Clark:

Yeah. I think what you describe is exactly … I love how you put it. I don’t want to be that guy. I think that’s very common that many people have that sense. I would say there are a few things that I’ve tried to work through. I’m certainly haven’t arrived, but I try to preach to myself. One is that reality of final judgment is praying, Lord, I want to be moved by the reality of eternity and of facing you one day. I think it’s also just want to be moved by love. So we ultimately do what we do because of our loves and what we have greatest affection for. And so asking the Lord to give us a love for our neighbors, for others rather than a love for our own comfort or our own reputation. So to me, I think a lot of it begins with prayer and acknowledgement that I struggle and I need your help, Lord.

The other thing I would say is just the experience. If you take that first step and you have that first conversation, I rarely have ever heard anybody say, Oh, that went horribly as far as … It’s typically people will say, That wasn’t as bad as I expected. And yeah, we tell ourselves so many things about how it’s going to go wrongly, how people are going to react negatively. I think we psych ourselves out when in reality that rarely happens. Now it can happen, absolutely, but just going to the point of actually talking with someone about the gospel and having a positive experience can really help you grow in that ability.

Daniel Markin:

Yeah. To some extent, the more you work that muscle, the easier it gets. What role does the Holy Spirit have in evangelism, and how have you experienced that maybe as you’ve been evangelizing with someone?

Elliot Clark:

Sure. Well, I think the role of the Holy Spirit first is convicting me. I mean, I want the Holy Spirit to convict that person. But just in what we’re talking about, I mean recently, I was … Honestly, this sounds probably embarrassing, but I had just done a conference on evangelism. I got on a plane. I just wanted to put my headphones on and check out. I mean, I really was tired. And I looked down and the guy next to me has his phone. He’s reading the news and he is reading in Hebrew. And so I just started asking him questions about what he was reading. Found out he was practicing Orthodox Jew, although he didn’t look like one, didn’t have any of the signs I would maybe expect. But yeah, I just had a wonderful conversation about trying to persuade him that Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah from the Old Testament.

But yeah, I think the Holy Spirit there in that moment was mostly convicting me and early moments where I just wanted to … I mean, I wrestled to be honest for a little bit, and I did what I just told you. I prayed, Lord, helped me. But then the Holy Spirit, obviously we believe not only convicts of sin, but also draws people to Christ. He points to Christ and ultimately regenerates and people believe. So the Holy Spirit is crucial and so that’s why prayer is so important. I’ve just seen so many instances. I’ll say this, we tend to not only predetermine how we think the conversation’s going to go, we predetermine who we think’s going to believe or respond positively at least. And I’ve just seen enough, had enough experiences where the Holy Spirit surprises us with not the person I’m talking to, not the person I’m expecting. The least and the last person I would ever imagine is the one who comes to faith. And so, I mean, that’s just another encouragement, honestly. Don’t listen to yourself. Don’t listen to what you imagine God can do, because so often he saves. And this gets back to a little bit of what we’re saying earlier, but God chooses the weak and the foolish things of this world to confound the wise.

Daniel Markin:

Yeah. So we’re coming to the end of our time here, but I want to close with that thought. Tell us young adults listening in Canada in exile, give us a pep talk. Can we do this? Can we be successful in evangelism?

Elliot Clark:

Yeah, I think so. First of all, because Christians are doing it all over the world, and they’ve been doing it for all of history, and they haven’t needed a particular platform to make it happen. They’ve done it by going about doing good works, being seen by others, living honorable lives, showing kindness and respect to all people. And in the process of that, giving a reason for the hope that they have in them. When people make fun of them, they don’t respond back with jokes or they don’t put memes on social media. They don’t troll people. They show respect to everybody. They treat every relationship and interchange as a possibility for the gospel. And so they are just constantly looking to be good, to do good, and to speak the good news. So yeah, I would just encourage them. I believe now is not the time for us to fight for our rights. I think now is the time for us to live on mission in the place where God has us. And he will, I believe, use this experience of social and even cultural dislocation to actually further the Gospel’s advance so we can take hope in him in this time.

Daniel Markin:

Amen. Well, Elliot, thank you for your time. Thank you for joining us. It’s been a pleasure getting to know you.

Elliot Clark:

Yeah, thank you very much.

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Daniel Markin:

In Doubt is a ministry that exists to engage young people with biblical truth and provide answers for many of today’s questions of life, faith, and culture. Through audio programs, articles, and blogs, In Doubt reaches out to encourage, strengthen, and disciple young adults. To check out all the resources of In Doubt, visit in doubt.ca in Canada or indoubt.com in the US. Or if you’re in a position or share a passion for the ministry of young people, you can support the ongoing mission of engaging a new generation with the truth of the Bible. First, you can pray for this ministry. And second, and if you are able, please consider a financial gift by visiting indoubt.ca in Canada or indoubt.com in the US. Your gift of any amount is such a blessing and an answer to prayer. Thanks.