Ep. 33: Providence, Sovereignty and Man’s Free Will

Andrew Marcus:

Hey, this is Andrew Marcus from THE INDOUBT SHOW. Listen, we have a fantastic show today. One of my heroes, Dr. John Neufeld, from Back to the Bible Canada, is with us to talk about God’s providence, his sovereignty, how he is in all things. It’s going to be such an encouraging time with him, but I wanted to let you know about something first here at THE INDOUBT SHOW. I’m so excited to share with you an incredible opportunity. Recently, a passionate supporter, blessed INDOUBT, with a match pledge for $5,000, and it’s aimed at encouraging others to give and get involved and support the mission of INDOUBT.

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Well, today we have Dr. John Neufeld. Dr. John, thank you so much for being here. I’m so grateful for your time. I know that you have a new book coming out in the new year, and it’s on this topic of God’s providence. And it’s called In All Things. And so maybe before we even dive into some of the depth of all of this theology, because I know a lot of people talk about this and there’s a lot of people on both camps, what is the definition of providence?

Dr. John Neufeld:

I’m going to give you a roundabout one first, then maybe we’ll go for one-sentence thing.

Andrew Marcus:

Sure.

Dr. John Neufeld:

But let me say roundabout that Colossians 1, teaches us that Christ is before all things. And it says, “In Him, all things …” Now all things has to be understood in the broadest possible terms. “In Him, all things hold together.” That is there is not one thing that exists that not only did Christ not create, but that it continues to exist moment by moment because he wills that it should so. So in other words, the earth continues to spin around the sun because Christ, moment by moment wills that it should, so that if he were at any one point in time to simply nod his head, the earth would no longer exist. And so that’s what we’re actually saying. So when we say those things, we actually mean that everything that exists exists because of the permission and because of the will of Christ who formed it and directs its course.

I got a quote here, and it’s from Charles Spurgeon, one of the great English-speaking preachers. He was preaching then on Ezekiel chapter one, and here’s what he said. “I believe that every particle of dust that dances in the sunbeam does not move an atom, more or less than God wishes, that every particle of spray that dashes against the steamboat, his day has its orbit as well as the sun in the heavens, that the chaff from the hand of the winnower is steered as the stars in their courses. The creeping of an aphid over the rosebud is as much fixed as the march of a devastating pestilence. The fall of leaves from a poplar is fully ordained as the tumbling of an avalanche.”

So the idea that providence is that God controls all things and that he is meticulously sovereign, not just in the big grand things, but in the incidental little things, and that all things are governed by Him. And I’ll give you a number of reasons for that. But that’s essentially what we’re saying. Christ is the creator of all, that He sustains everything and that he directs the course of everything. That’s what we mean by providence. And then we have to add to that something for Christians, and that is this, the providence towards those who call a name of Christ is a kind providence. So Romans 8:28, “God causes all things to work together for good.” Now, all things is meant again in the broadest possible terms, right? All things according to his will. And so it is done according to his will and our long-term good as well.

Andrew Marcus:

So wow. Wow. That’s so good. And obviously, just life-changing if you understand this, what is the impact that happens in a life?

Dr. John Neufeld:

Well, Paul said to the Athenian philosophers. “In him, we live and we move and we have our being.” That is, I’ve never been outside of the direct will of God and Andrew, if I might, just the whole issue of miracles. See, there are some people, and in their theology, they say when a miracle happens, they use words like this, “God showed up.”

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah, I’ve heard that a lot.

Dr. John Neufeld:

Yeah, God showed up, right? So C.S. Lewis, in his book, Miracles a book I take umbrage with. I don’t agree. Lewis says that a miracle is very much like a pool table. So let’s say that it’s a slade bed table, it’s absolutely flat. The cushions are completely predictable. I mean, it’s as good a pool table as you can find. “You know that if you’re going to bank a ball off the side park, it’s going to go into the corner every single time If the angle is right,” says Lewis. And so he argues that’s just simply natural causation. But if somebody reaches in their hand and catches the pool ball and it doesn’t go in the table, well, a force from the outside has entered in and says, Lewis, that’s what a miracle is. You have the natural forces of nature. We simply say the rules of science or however, we want to say that. And they function according to predictable patterns. And a miracle is when God reaches in the supernatural, reaches into the nature, the natural-

Andrew Marcus:

And intervenes

Dr. John Neufeld:

And intervenes. So that’s what a miracle is. But that view of things assumes that nature functions on its own. It’s like that. It’s kind of like the old Deus that was a philosophy, and in their day, you would wind up a watch, so you had a spring in it. So they would argue that God wound up nature, he creates nature, creates the rules of nature, and now they’re just ticking down and he just watches and does nothing to it. But Lewis says yes, but when a miracle happens, he does intervene. People who hold a meticulous sovereignty, the providence of God in all things will say, no, no, no, there’s never one thing that happens in nature, even those predictable things that scientists discover, those things are held into place because God wills them to exist that way.

And the fact that they’re predictable, well, it speaks of the character of God, he’s faithful in all things. He doesn’t wake up in a bad mood and the sun doesn’t ride this morning, right? He’s always faithful. He always is predictable. His righteousness can be counted on. And that’s why nature behaves as it does, because of the consistency of God.

Andrew Marcus:

So the book Miracles that you’re talking about, and that theology would be more of the set it and forget it where God just kind of creates-

Dr. John Neufeld:

Yeah. I mean, I don’t think that’s what Lewis was after. Lewis had a different theology than that, but I think he makes a mistake here. So a miracle we might say is an unusual action of God, you see? And so sometimes God does not act in these predictable fashions that we can observe day in and day out. But the point I guess I’m trying to make is that there is never a moment in our lives, never a moment when we are not interacting with the hand of God.

Andrew Marcus:

So instead of saying, oh, wow, God showed up, we’re saying, no, no, God is here.

Dr. John Neufeld:

God has always showed up.

Andrew Marcus:

Always.

Dr. John Neufeld:

In him, we live and we move and have or be. I mean, there is never a moment. You’ve not been in the direct presence of God where God has not been acting on your life.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah. That’s huge. That’s huge. And I wonder when you think of tragedy, when you think of hardship, when you think of all the fires that have happened or climate change, global warming, all these different things that are happening, how do we reconcile that? Or what’s some wisdom you can give us to kind of help those who are really struggling with health or situations like tragedy?

Dr. John Neufeld:

That’s a huge question.

Andrew Marcus:

That’s huge.

Dr. John Neufeld:

Maybe however, the way in which we approach the question is helpful. So many of us think that, listen, God owes me good in this life. I’m not getting the good that I’m owed, and therefore … I mean, how can we possibly explain that God is not serving up the good that I should be getting? I mean, God, how do you justify yourself as basically sometimes behind some of our questions? But when you start to read the book of Romans, which is really Christianity 101, so the whole thing starts by the wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all mankind who deny the truth of God, and God is provoked because of our denial of Him. And in reality, we can begin by saying that some of the horrible things that we encounter in this world is there is in this world, I would say foretaste, little bits of heaven and hell that we are already beginning to experience. Now, the devastating things remind us that our hope is not in this world.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah. That’s good.

Dr. John Neufeld:

And the wonderful things remind us that if there’s any good, it comes directly from the hand of God. So I mean, I think we can look at some of that. I’m not going to answer all the details about why there’s been a season of fires, but that doesn’t yet answer the story about disease that people face. I mean, the reality is that this world reminds us that it’s temporary, and God has deliberately designed it that way so that we would not feel comfortable here, but designed it in a way that we would seek God, seek his mercy and want to be reconciled to him. I mean, that’s very much a part of the gospel.

Andrew Marcus:

Wow, huge. That’s a good way. So switching our perspective and our approach to the question.

Dr. John Neufeld:

Yes, I think so.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah. So why don’t we talk about some opposing views of this theology of meticulously sovereign? Unpack them and then just reiterate where you stand and maybe give us some of the biblical references to help us understand that.

Dr. John Neufeld:

Yeah, sure. I mean, one of the reasons why people have difficulty with what I’ve just said, and I haven’t yet shown you scripture passage after scripture passage that actually says that.

Andrew Marcus:

Yes, this will be very helpful for us.

Dr. John Neufeld:

Well, maybe we should start there.

Andrew Marcus:

Let’s do it.

Dr. John Neufeld:

Let’s do that. I mean, I just listed a bunch of them here that just talk about that. Here’s Psalm 22:28, “Kingship belongs to the Lord and he rules over all the nations.” He’s the king, rules over everything. In terms of world leaders, Romans 13, “There is no authority except from God.” That is every single person who rules a nation was given permission and its direction came from God. So we have all of that. How about this one from Psalm 1:39, David says, “Your eyes saw my unformed substance.” He’s talking about when he’s being formed knit together in his mother’s womb. And he says, “At the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.” That is, God formed those days when there was not yet one. Jeremiah says the same thing. I mean, “Before I came into being, you already knew me and that he knew all his days and all of that.”

So there are other passages in scripture too that talk simply about when the mountain goats give birth, God causes them to give birth. So we say, well, it’s just a scientific-

Andrew Marcus:

Even going through Job. When you go through Job and you hear his response, it’s like, wow, every single detail-

Dr. John Neufeld:

Especially the idea of all of nature following God’s design. And so if that’s true, then we already know from let’s say, how about human beings? Romans chapter 11, where God says to Pharaoh that I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you, that when I devastated you in front of a whole watching world, people would know there’s no power but God’s. But I raised you up for this. I prepared you for this role of destruction. There are many passages that speak about meticulous sovereignty, the overwhelming nature of them. Does disaster come to the city? Unless the Lord has caused it.

I mean, all these are passages of scripture that overwhelmingly state time and again, and that’s what I’ve basically done in my book. A large part of the book is just simply quoting scripture that people don’t seem to pay attention to and recognize how God is involved in everything.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah. It’s so easy to read some of these passages and you just kind of read quickly in your devotions, and you don’t actually stop to say, whoa, what did I just read? Yeah,

Dr. John Neufeld:

Yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

The weight of some of these passages.

Dr. John Neufeld:

Well, 1 Samuel 2:25, let me try this, “But they would not listen.” That is Eli’s sons. They were rebellious. “They would not listen to the voice of their father for it was the will of the Lord to put them to death.” I mean, how many times did we pay attention to that kind of stuff? I mean, when Moses in Exodus 3 is standing in front of the burning bush, and God says, I’m sending you to Egypt, and Moses says, I’m really a bad speaker. I mean, you’ve got the wrong guy, God, because I stumble in everything else and I don’t make good speeches, and then nobody listens to me. And so God says, “Who makes man’s mouth? Who makes him speaking or who makes him dumb? Who makes his eyes seeing or blind? Is it not I the Lord?”

So, God takes credit for that. I mean, we spend so much time in theology trying to make excuses for God and excuses for the God who doesn’t make excuses for himself. Now, I haven’t yet given you all the reasons. I mean, how do we still hold to a loving God when we have passages? But let’s not avoid these passages because they are overwhelmingly abundant in the scripture. There’s not just one found here and one found there. There are hundreds of them.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah, sprinkled throughout, beginning and the end. Yeah. You can’t avoid it. If you read your Bible, it’s very hard to avoid this truth. Okay, so there are opposing views. There are people who think they read that and they don’t agree.

Dr. John Neufeld:

Well, often they don’t agree because they think it makes God into an ogre and into a worker of evil. I mean, God has lightened him. There’s no darkness at all. I mean, God does not sin. Does this not make God the author of sin they say? And we cannot hold to a view of God in which he does evil, which is true, we cannot. I mean, I think that’s the major objection against this. So it’s much more a philosophical objection that finds it difficult to do that. And then the other, I think, objection is free will. And you said, where’s the level of our free will? And so the free will objection is often there and says, well, if this view is true, does it not make our free will look like an illusion? And that’s the question that, and it has to be answered.

Andrew Marcus:

That’s a huge question.

Dr. John Neufeld:

Should we go there?

Andrew Marcus:

I think we need to go there.

Dr. John Neufeld:

I think the first question that we need to ask when we ask the question of free will is what exactly do we mean when we say free will?

Andrew Marcus:

Okay, that’s a good question there.

Dr. John Neufeld:

Because we all think we know, and yet we’re making some assumptions that I’m going to think we have to really unpack for a moment. So let me give you the most basic definition of free will, and that is free will is the ability to do whatever you want.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah, makes sense.

Dr. John Neufeld:

You say, well, what other definition could there be? Well, there are people that argue, and that is more on the Armenian side. They will argue that free will is also the ability to do what you don’t want. Now, you stop for a moment and you say, wait a minute, what are we talking about? Well, hang with me. So people like me say, oh, no, no, no. You cannot do what you don’t want. You can only do what you do want. So let’s say you hate a given action and you love its opposite. The question is, could you do that which you hated? And some people say, well, yes, I could have. And of course, there’s no way of testing that. But I’m going to say that the biblical argument goes like this, that we act out of the abundance of our heart. So before salvation, we act in unrighteous ways.

In fact, one of the reasons why the world is not more sinful than it actually is because there is something called common grace. And common grace means that God holds at bay our greatest impulses, our sinful impulses and stops us from doing things. In other words, the question for me has never been, why is the world as evil as it is? My question is often, why is it not more evil? Because we only do that which our hearts dictate. And when we are in sin, when we are the children of Adam who have fallen from grace, when our hearts have rebelled against God, we do those things that are hateful to God by nature. That’s what scripture teaches. But do we do them freely because our hearts dictate that? Now, here’s the question, Andrew, could you kill somebody?

Andrew Marcus:

I mean, technically, yes.

Dr. John Neufeld:

But could you bring yourself to the point where you’d actually be so furiously angry that you delight in doing it? And I’m going to answer it for you? And the answer is yes, you could. Now, as it stands today, probably not. But God could change all the circumstances on the outside of your life. And so excite emotions that you didn’t realize existed inside you, and those emotions, if they were not bridled by God, would bubble up and lead to the vilest form of sin that you could possibly imagine. That’s there for all of us.

Now, if that happened, if God changed the external situation for us, would we then still be acting freely? And the answer is yes, we would. You see? I mean, you and I live in this world where there’s abundance. There’s food on the shelf. We have so many things that other generations did not have. I love to tell this story that years ago when I was in Burnaby, we had a boil water advisory because a bunch of silt had flown into the big reservoir, and then because the water came out cloudy, and so you had to boil your water and put it through a coffee filter, and then it was perfectly fine to drink, but it took some process. So at Costco, there was a run-on bottled water, and everyone was buying it like crazy. They were buying it by the cart, and they were cleaning out Costco of water. And the last little bit left for fist fights on the floor at Costco, there was blood on the floor and it was all over an inconvenience.

I’m telling you, Andrew, what’s in the human heart. What’s possible for all of us when we are inconvenienced or more so when we’re suffering, all of that leads us to make choices freely. And those choices are made because those are the things that our hearts delight in. That’s what free will is. We do what our hearts delight in. God can change the external situation so that the worst of impulses are kept from us. So we are still acting freely in all cases. In the case of Pharaoh, he was a guy that from young on, had won every single foot race he had ever run. We know this from history. Wins all the horse races. He was nothing but a winner, and he was good-looking, and all the girls loved this guy. He never knew second best in his life until he met Moses. This guy who was from the slave God and telling him what to do and calling plagues on Egypt. And his heart becomes hard. And the Bible says two things.

It says he hardened his heart, but it also says God hardened his heart. God changed the external situation, and Pharaoh chose freely to rebel against the true and living God. So I’m going to say meticulous sovereignty and providence over all things and human free will, those things coexist together. We are fully free, and God is fully providential in all things, but in the end of the day, God’s providence always wins. But salvation is a great case in point. I mean, the reality is God so arranged it that I should hear the gospel, the Holy Spirit. So came to my heart … Now, by the way, that’s the only time I’m going to say when we are saved, that’s the only time God overrules our free will.

Andrew Marcus:

Yes, that happens.

Dr. John Neufeld:

My free will says, I want to hate God to my dying day. I want to rebel against everything that belongs to God. I want to shake my fist against heaven and say, not your will, but mine be done. That’s what I wanted all throughout my life.

Andrew Marcus:

So the one moment where-

Dr. John Neufeld:

And then God said, through the Holy Spirit, I’m canceling that commitment.

Andrew Marcus:

Wow.

Dr. John Neufeld:

And I’m putting a new heart in you. He gives me the new birth. And in consequent, I now desire the things of Jesus, and I have a new heart. So I’m still doing now after my conversion, what I truly love. And now what I truly love is I love to give glory to Christ.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah. So it’s the one moment in our lives where-

Dr. John Neufeld:

Absolutely.

Andrew Marcus:

He says, Nope, I’m intervening.

Dr. John Neufeld:

Yep.

Andrew Marcus:

Yep. So beautiful.

Dr. John Neufeld:

I mean, that’s why salvation is all of God, right?

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah. Yeah. Nothing to do with us.

Dr. John Neufeld:

Yeah. I mean, all I can is spend all of eternity thanking God for his grace.

Andrew Marcus:

Zero.

Dr. John Neufeld:

I mean, had it not been grace, oh my goodness …

Andrew Marcus:

Oh, man. So are there specific kind of titles for the different camps?

Dr. John Neufeld:

Well, I mean, I don’t know how many different camps there are. I mean, basically, there is a viewpoint that here in this realm, this category, this is what God controls, and here’s this other realm out there that God doesn’t control in which stuff just happens. And so we can say, why did this bad thing happen? Whatever that bad thing is. And sometimes that bad thing is intensely sorrowful, and we simply say, well, God had nothing to do with that. But listen, if there is a realm out there that God has nothing to do with, that thought is frightening. That means that I can’t take hope in the promises of God because I could be outside of those promises.

Andrew Marcus:

Wow. Yep.

Dr. John Neufeld:

And I don’t know what’s going to happen to me out there, and bad things could happen. I still remember a conversation I had with a woman some time ago, and she had Huntington’s chorea, and it’s simply incurable, and it eventually means that it’s a neurological disease. They’re all bad. And in the end, you simply … it leads to a miserable death. And she was on the pathway. She said, “I want to know if this is of God.” I mean, she’s staring across the table at me, and I thought, how do I answer this right now? And she said, “I don’t want you to dilly-dally about tell me if God …” I said, listen, “God is in this too.” And she said, “I’m so thankful because if this wasn’t of God, I don’t know how I could live with this.”

Andrew Marcus:

Wow. What about the story of Job? So we see evil. We see God in control, though even allowing the devil to intervene. Walk us through that case study.

Dr. John Neufeld:

Yes, it’s an interesting story because Job is righteous. He’s presented that way, not sinless, but that he acts. He’s a born again man. He acts in accordance with the principles of God. He wakes up in the morning, he commits his kids to the Lord. I mean, all these kinds of things. He lives in such a way. I mean, he even says later, “I’ve never even looked at a woman lustfully with my eyes.” I mean, he controls himself and wants to live according to the precepts of God.

Andrew Marcus:

So you’re making a distinction though, between he was righteous, not sinless.

Dr. John Neufeld:

No, he’s got sins. He’s got sins.

Andrew Marcus:

So he’s okay. A righteous man.

Dr. John Neufeld:

He’s a righteous man.

Andrew Marcus:

Not a sinless man.

Dr. John Neufeld:

Correct. Yeah. We play that for a while. But that’s

Andrew Marcus:

A good one. Yeah. It’s a good thing to be aware of.

Dr. John Neufeld:

Of. I mean, David talks that way in many of the Psalms. I’ve kept my hands clean. You say, well, David-

Andrew Marcus:

Did you, though?

Dr. John Neufeld:

Yeah. Right. But on the other hand, he was confessing his sins, a lot of things. We are supposed to understand that when the suffering happened in Job’s life, it was not as a result of punishment for some bad thing that he was doing. And in fact, we find out that Satan has been noticing him. I mean, he’s one of the greatest men in the world at the time. And he’s looked at this righteous man who lives righteously and influences others and says, look at his charmed life. And so in the end, we find out that Satan ends up being the unwilling servant of God. So all of his thrashing against God. So he’s going to curse Job, and he does. And Job loses his health and he loses His family and his friends now are accusations and individuals no longer look at him with respect. He says that. People would rise in his presence. Now, I didn’t even give him the time of day. I mean, he looks awful. His health is just …

Every bit of status he’s had has been stripped away. And to the point where even though Job doesn’t curse God, he does curse the day of his birth. And he does begin to say things that sound very much close to the line. Going to the very end, I mean, God finally intervenes and says, Job, you seem to know all things. Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell me if you understand. Are you the one that causes the mountain goats to give birth? And do you do all those things? I mean, this wisdom that you think you have, perhaps you need to get humble and confess that my wisdom is complete. And maybe I’m not telling you all the reasons for your suffering now, and maybe it’s none of your business now, but to simply content yourself with that the altogether wise and loving God is caring for you. And I think that’s the message of Job. It doesn’t give us the answer to Job’s suffering, it simply invites us to consider the wisdom of God over ours.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah. Huge.

Dr. John Neufeld:

Yeah, it’s huge.

Andrew Marcus:

Well, this has been really helpful for me. You’re reminding my soul today that every single detail of my life is orchestrated and in God’s care and in his hands. So good. Dr. John, thank you so much for your time. Thank you for being here with us today to talk about this very important topic.

Dr. John Neufeld:

Andrew, it’s been a delight. Thank you for having me. God bless.

Andrew Marcus:

Hey, thanks so much for joining us today. For more great content, check out the Indoubt Show on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Music, or wherever you stream your podcast. We hope you enjoyed it today. Feel free to check out indoubt.ca. We have some great resources available to you. Have an awesome day.