Ep.39: World Religions Unraveled: Catholicism

Andrew Marcus:

Hey, this is Andrew. Welcome to THE INDOUBT SHOW. We have a terrific show for you today. We have Greg Allison all the way in Louisville, Kentucky joining us talking about Catholicism. Now, before we dive in, I want to remind you we have our Match Campaign. A generous supporter of the ministry is pledging up to $5,000 in a match. And so what you give today is doubled because of this generous supporter. And so we encourage you double your impact today, go to indoubt.ca for more information, but enjoy today’s program as we unpack Catholicism.

All right, well we have Gregg Allison with us all the way in Louisville, Kentucky. You were wearing your white shirt, you just came back from the Derby.

Gregg Allison:

That’s the first weekend in May. It’s not quite that time. Nope.

Andrew Marcus:

And not the attire, I’m assuming.

Gregg Allison:

Oh, no, we get super dressed up for the Derby.

Andrew Marcus:

Do you actually?

Gregg Allison:

I would have a tie, sport coat, hat, the whole works.

Andrew Marcus:

Oh really?

Gregg Allison:

Oh, it’s an event. Unprecedented.

Andrew Marcus:

Okay, if I ever come out there, I’m going to make sure to come out in May.

Gregg Allison:

Fantastic. Come out for Thurby, which is the Thursday before the Derby and we’ll spend a lot less money.

Andrew Marcus:

Okay. Thurby. That’s amazing. We’re learning stuff all the time. Okay. This is awesome.

Gregg Allison:

All the time.

Andrew Marcus:

Hey, I’m so grateful for your time. Thank you for making time for us today as we continue this series of World Religions Unraveled. We’re talking today about Catholicism, and you’ve written a lot about this and have spoken a lot about this with TGC in different places at conferences. We wanted to walk through, and I know you mentioned before that Protestants and Catholics use the same terms, but very different dictionaries. I thought that was an interesting thought and I wanted to just walk through some of the things with you and kind of just compare and contrast and see the similarities and the differences. But first, before we dive in, what are some of the fundamental theological differences that you would say between Catholicism and Protestantism?

Gregg Allison:

One crucial area of course is how are we rightly related to God or how are we rescued from sin and saved through Jesus Christ? That’s a major point of difference. We Protestants believe that God declares us not guilty, but righteous instead, not on the basis of our righteousness, but the righteousness of Jesus that’s credited to our account. That’s called justification. The Roman Catholic view of salvation or justification is it’s not just the forgiveness of sins, but it’s being born again. It’s progressing in maturity and sanctification in Jesus. It’s a lifelong process, and at the end of one’s life, you can’t really be sure if you’re genuinely saved or not. That’s a fundamental difference is the whole idea of how do we become rightly related to God.

Andrew Marcus:

Wow. Would you say that was a fundamental difference? Obviously we’re right before Halloween, which is Reformation and it’s not just about trick or treats, but there’s something different that happened throughout history. But would you say that was the main fundamental theologically difference that led to the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century?

Gregg Allison:

It absolutely is. In fact, Protestants call that point of difference the material principle of Protestantism. That is, if you had to boil down all the differences between Roman Catholics and Protestants, it would boil down to this idea of what is justification? How are we rightly related to God? There would be a second major principle also that was at the heart of the Reformation. That’s called the formal principle of Protestantism. That is what’s our ultimate authority in terms of understanding who God is and his ways in this world. Protestants championed Soula Scriptura, its scripture, which is our highest, our ultimate authority, whereas the Roman Catholic Church holds to scripture, its own tradition, and then the magisterium or the teaching office of the church through the Pope. That would be the second major difference, justification and scriptural authority.

Andrew Marcus:

And can you walk through maybe some of the tradition or the other aspects that are in that category?

Gregg Allison:

Scripture for Roman Catholics is very similar to the Protestant Bible. Roman Catholics have seven different or additional books in their Old Testament. A number of those books really emphasize merit theology, how our good works done in love can merit God’s grace and ultimately eternal life. There’s some difference in terms of what scripture is for the different groups. Secondly, tradition, according to the Roman Catholic Church is the oral teaching that Jesus communicated not by writing but orally to the apostles who never wrote that material down, but also communicated those truths from Jesus orally to their successors, the bishops in the Catholic Church.

For 2000 years, that oral teaching has been shared, has been communicated from Jesus to the apostles, to the bishops today so that Pope Francis, the bishop of Rome today is the one who cherishes and nurtures and would define Roman Catholic tradition. So these would be teachings that are not in the Protestant Bible but are orally transmitted through the church. For an example would be the immaculate conception of Mary and the bodily assumption of Mary. We’ll get into those details later.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah.

Gregg Allison:

You’ve got scripture, you’ve got tradition, and you’ve got the magisterium. Who has the authority and the duty to both define what scripture is and what tradition is and to interpret both the Bible and tradition? The answer to that question is the teaching office of the church. That would be the pope and the bishops in the Catholic Church.

Andrew Marcus:

Fascinating. How many bishops are there? We know there’s obviously one Pope.

Gregg Allison:

Right now there’s close to 200 cardinals. There are bishops who, because of their elevated status and responsibilities are called cardinals. Let’s just focus on them. These are the 200 or so bishops who will ultimately elect the next Pope when Pope Francis dies.

Andrew Marcus:

Oh wow. There’s obviously some pretty major differences. You said there’s seven additional books in the Old Testament that are written. Is there any additional books in the New Testament or just those seven in the Old Testament that were

Gregg Allison:

Just the seven in the Old Testament? So that’s the only difference. The Catholic New Testament and the Protestant New Testament exactly the same. Then most of the Old Testament is the same, but the Catholics have additional books like Tobith and Judith and First and Second Maccabees, and they also have a few extra chapters in their version of Esther and a few extra chapters in their version of Daniel. The only differences are in the Old Testament.

Andrew Marcus:

Okay, interesting. That’s so fascinating. Is there contrasting views of salvation? I know there’s obviously works and other things connected with Roman Catholics, but Protestants are just saved by grace. Are there more differences with salvation or is that kind of the main thing?

Gregg Allison:

I think a key difference is we Protestants believe that God saves us by his grace, which is proclaimed through the gospel message through scripture. Roman Catholics believe that grace is actually infused into them as they participate in the Roman Catholic sacraments like baptism and the Eucharist and penance. The sacraments of the Catholic Church are at the very core of how Roman Catholics can be saved. You can’t have the grace of God apart from baptism, the Eucharist, penance, and the other sacraments. We Protestants, while we should not minimize our sacraments or ordinances, baptism of the Lord’s Supper, we don’t believe they function in the same way that Catholics believe their sacraments function.

Andrew Marcus:

Fascinating. They would believe that if someone is a Roman Catholic but they haven’t been baptized-

Gregg Allison:

Can’t be saved.

Andrew Marcus:

Really?

Gregg Allison:

Yep. Baptism is the first sacrament. When a quantity of water is poured over the head of, let’s say a 30-day-old baby girl, because that water has been consecrated in the Catholic Church and then baptism is performed in the name of the triune God, that water is able to transmit the grace of God to that little 30-day-old baby girl. Her original sin is removed, she’s no longer guilty before God, is no longer corrupt in her nature. Indeed through baptism, she has been born again or regenerated. Now she is a Christian who belongs to Christ and his church. That’s where it all begins. According to the Roman Catholic Church, you can not be saved if you’ve not been baptized. That’s where salvation begins.

Andrew Marcus:

Wow. Okay. Salvation does not begin by professing Jesus is Lord.

Gregg Allison:

Nope.

Andrew Marcus:

Of course not.

Gregg Allison:

Of course a 30-day-old can’t do that. The church would profess faith, would grant faith to that 30-day-old baby girl, but she could not have her own personal profession of faith. In the case of adults, even there, they need to understand the gospel, they need to profess faith, but it’s not actually their faith on their own. It’s faith that is given to them by the Catholic Church, but that faith is not sufficient. They also must be baptized in order to be saved.

Andrew Marcus:

Okay, so baptism is like the first of utmost importance when it comes to the sacraments. Now are you just saved after baptism or do you keep your salvation with the Eucharist or other sacraments? Where do the other sacraments play a role?

Gregg Allison:

The expectation then is after you’ve been baptized and you’ve been incorporated into Christ in this church, there’s the sacrament of confirmation so that you’re taught to be a disciple of Jesus. You begin to understand what it means to follow Jesus and what the crucial beliefs are of the Christian faith. So you go through confirmation and that sacrament is accompanied by anointing with oil on one’s forehead. That oil is a symbol of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. That 30-day-old baby girl, say around 8, 9, 10 years old is confirmed. She has now granted the fullness, the power of the Holy Spirit. Now she’s fully incorporated into the church of Jesus Christ. Around or about that same time, she will go through the sacrament of the Eucharist, which we can talk more about. But that continues the infusion of grace. Then when she falls away, commits sin, there’s also the sacrament of penance. It’s a constant reference to the sacraments of the Catholic Church through which God’s grace is poured into the Catholic faith.

Andrew Marcus:

Interesting. With Protestants, you’re saved by grace. You’re welcomed into the family, you’re filled with the spirit. And then with Catholicism, it’s kind of like a journey. So 30 days old, okay, now you’re saved. And then by the time you’re 8 or 9 or 10, now you’re confirmed. Then it’s a lifelong journey in the sacraments help you keep that salvation.

Gregg Allison:

It’s exactly right. We Protestants would say, we hear the gospel, we repent of our sins, we believe we receive God’s grace, we’re saved. For the Catholic Church, it’s the entire life process. It’s a process. At the end of that process, you’re not sure if you will be surely saved or not. We Protestants hold too, I think, I hope, the assurance of salvation that when we become a Christian, God will hold us in Christ all the way to the end so we can have joyfully that assurance of salvation. That’s not true in the Catholic system.

Andrew Marcus:

Wow. I always get overwhelmed with that because even with Mormonism, it’s similar where you just don’t know at the end you do all the good works, you do all the things you can and you just hope for the best. I just feel like that would be so overwhelmingly stressful to just not know.

Gregg Allison:

And so this is one of the reasons that Martin Luther, who’s Reformation inauguration we celebrate at the end of October, why he was so disturbed. He was a very devout, devoted, faithful Catholic monk, but he was disturbed in his conscience. He wasn’t sure if he had done sufficient good works if he had confessed his sin sufficiently. He was plagued by this overwhelming sense of guilt and this unanswerable question, how can I know if I’m saved? This is why he discovers the gospel of Jesus Christ and then starts the Protestant movement.

Andrew Marcus:

Amazing. When you think about the baptism and all these different things, it seems like there’s a little bit of a confusion where it’s like there’s a journey of salvation, whereas for us, we would say maybe there’s a journey of sanctification, we’re saved, but now we become more and more like Christ’s character. Whereas with Roman Catholics it’s like, no, no, you have to actually go through a process of salvation rather than sanctification. Would that be kind of a good comparison?

Gregg Allison:

That’s a really good comparison. We believe that justification, our salvation takes place right when we repent and confess Jesus Christ when we embrace the gospel. But that is and will be followed by sanctification, a gradual growth in maturity in Christ’s likeness, fruit of the spirit and all like that. That will be an ongoing reality. But that all flows from the fact that God’s grace has saved us. Those good works don’t save us. They’re the fruit, they’re the proof, and they will be the necessary result of embracing the good news of Jesus.

Andrew Marcus:

That’s amazing. With this theology of, okay, baptism is the confirmation that you’re saved and then eight or nine, the anointing of oil, all the things that you told us about the Roman Catholic Church, do they have scripture that they point to and interpret to say, actually baptism is how you are saved?

Gregg Allison:

A key passage is John 3:5. Jesus is in conversation with Nicodemus and he says, “You must be born again.” And he adds “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, one can not see. One can not enter the kingdom of God.” The Roman Catholic Church interprets, “unless you are born of water,” to point to the absolute necessity of water baptism. You can not be saved if you are not baptized. That’s the key portion there. John 3:5. Then Titus three also has about the washing of renewal by the spirit. But the Roman Catholic Church primarily points to John 3:5 in support of baptism necessary for salvation.

Andrew Marcus:

And what would the Protestants believe as far as scriptures? There’s a lot of scriptures that talk about baptism but not being the point of salvation.

Gregg Allison:

As we read the stories in the book of Acts, we see that there is the preaching of the gospel, repentance from sin, faith in Jesus, the promise of forgiveness, the gift of the Holy Spirit, and those who have experienced that are baptized as a public demonstration or explanation, a vivid portrayal of what God has done in their life. But it’s not necessary for salvation. That doesn’t mean it’s unimportant, but we have, for example, in 1 Corinthians 1, Paul kind of in a senior moment, can’t remember how many people he baptized in the church in Corinth, but he says he’s only really baptized a handful. I would think it would be unconscionable for the apostle Paul to believe that baptism is necessary for salvation but when he preached the gospel didn’t baptize people, maybe he had his assistants do it, we don’t know. Baptism is not necessary for salvation according to Protestants, that doesn’t render it unimportant. We should, in obedience to Christ commands, be baptized as disciples. Right? We should be baptized.

Andrew Marcus:

Absolutely. You think of the thief on the cross, they didn’t jump down quickly and get baptized.

Gregg Allison:

Couldn’t do it.

Andrew Marcus:

Nope. But Jesus says, “Today you will be with me.”

Gregg Allison:

Exactly. Yes.

Andrew Marcus:

And so another just key evidence of, okay, it’s not necessary. I like how you say it. It’s like we want to be obedient and follow the ways of Christ and do it and declare to the seen and unseen world what God has done in our lives. But it’s not the key thing for salvation. Pretty big differences. These are not small differences with the Roman Catholic Church and Protestantism.

Gregg Allison:

I think we’re really dealing with two different worldviews. There are a lot of similarities. We all believe in the trinity, the deity and humanity of Christ. But there are such significant differences that I would describe this as a different worldview, same terminology in many cases, but really built in a different kind of a system, a really different structure.

Andrew Marcus:

Totally. I know a lot of people when they think about Catholicism, of course a big thing that comes up is Mary, so what is the worldview and the theology behind Jesus’s mother, Mary

Gregg Allison:

Next to Jesus, Mary is the next most important figure in the biblical story and in the accomplishment of salvation. Catholics believe that Mary would play a necessary role in the birth of Messiah. She had to be prepared in order for when Gabriel, the angel announced that Mary would become the mother of Jesus, that she would agree to that. The Roman Catholics believed that from the moment of her conception, she was preserved from the stain, the taint, the guilt of original sin. She was, in other words, immaculately conceived. She was conceived without sin. She’s born without sin.

Roman Catholics believed that she lived her entire life without sin. At the end of her life, at the time of her death, her body was assumed or taken up into heaven, was not put in a grave. It did not decay in a tomb because of her sinlessness. They believe that Mary is sinless from her conception until now as she reigns with Jesus in a secondary way in heaven. She can intercede for the Catholic faithful. She’s the example of godliness, obedience of faith and everything. She assists the Catholic faithful in this journey during their life.

Andrew Marcus:

Wow. Okay. I was very curious about this because I didn’t know if it was like, okay, as soon as the angel came, did she stop sinning then and then did she sin after or was she sinless from the beginning to the end? She was sinless from the beginning

Gregg Allison:

To the end,

Andrew Marcus:

And

Gregg Allison:

Catholics will point to the fact that she was a virgin her entire life. Her perpetual virginity is the sign. It’s the seal of her sinlessness. Catholics believe that even when Mary gave birth to Jesus, the integrity of her virginity was not destroyed. She is perpetually virgin and therefore that marks her out as sinless.

Andrew Marcus:

Okay. But they say that she’s a virgin her whole life?

Gregg Allison:

Yes.

Andrew Marcus:

Jesus had siblings,

Gregg Allison:

A kinship, cousins.

Andrew Marcus:

Cousins.

Gregg Allison:

That’s the Roman Catholic interpretation.

Andrew Marcus:

Okay. They thought that Jesus was the only son of Mary?

Gregg Allison:

Yes.

Andrew Marcus:

Okay.

Gregg Allison:

Yep.

Andrew Marcus:

That’s fascinating. I’m trying to wrap my head around all this.

Gregg Allison:

It takes a stretch of imagination to think because she’s betrothed to Joseph and we know that they did not have sexual intercourse before she gave birth to Jesus. Matthew 1 seems to indicate that after Jesus was born that Joseph and Mary had sexual intercourse, which would explain why Jesus had brothers and sisters. The Roman Catholics don’t believe that.

Andrew Marcus:

What do they say when they go through Matthew 1.

Gregg Allison:

That Joseph being a righteous and upright man, knowing that Mary needed to remain a virgin, never consummated the marriage, so to speak, never had sexual intercourse with her. They just see Jesus as the one and only son of Mary.

Andrew Marcus:

Interesting. In the area of just kind of transitioning, we’re still talking about Mary, but I don’t know this, do Catholic people, Roman Catholics, pray to Mary?

Gregg Allison:

They do. Just like if I would say, I’m really struggling with X, Y, Z, would you please pray for me? You would. So we can go to Mary sinless, exalted in heaven, the mother of Jesus, and ask her to intercede for us before her son. Of course she’s going to do that because she’s connected to us with our shared humanity. She’s connected to her son because she is his mother, and so she is a vehicle instrument through which we can ask her to intercede for us before her son Jesus.

Andrew Marcus:

Fascinating. They don’t pray to apostles, do they? Because I know they have-

Gregg Allison:

They do.

Andrew Marcus:

Oh, they do.

Gregg Allison:

Sure. They wouldn’t be called apostles in the heavenly state, they’d be called saints.

Andrew Marcus:

Okay.

Gregg Allison:

St. Peter, we’ve all heard of him.

Andrew Marcus:

Right.

Gregg Allison:

St. Paul, St. John Paul II, one of the latest popes. Right? These are apostles and they are popes, and if they have been proclaimed saints by the Roman Catholic Church, then they also intercede for us. Just like I would ask you to intercede for me, pray for me. They will also intercede or pray for us.

Andrew Marcus:

They could technically pray to a lot of people then.

Gregg Allison:

Thousands.

Andrew Marcus:

Wow.

Gregg Allison:

Yes. Oh yeah. Every day during the year is a feast day of a certain saint or various saints, and you start adding those up. There are thousands if not more saints.

Andrew Marcus:

Wow. Okay.

Gregg Allison:

Roman Catholics worship Jesus. They worship the triune God because only God can be worshiped. They venerate the saints, but they super venerate, can we use that term? They super venerate, they super honor or are devoted to Mary. She’s the outstanding one.

Andrew Marcus:

Yes. They’re not worshiping Mary, they’re not worshiping the saints. They’re worshiping Jesus. Yeah. Okay. That makes more sense. Just going through this, going through, again, we may have similar terms, but a very different dictionary. What’s some advice or some words of wisdom to our young audience who is either they have family members in the Roman Catholic church or they themselves are in the Roman Catholic Church. What could we say to them to help navigate these major differences?

Gregg Allison:

That’s such a great question. Lots of different areas. First, I would encourage young people to get involved in a very strong gospel centered, Christ-centered, God-honoring, whole Bible preaching church that worships the Lord, disciples you, evangelizes, engages in missions. If you go to kind of a wishy-washy church, I don’t think it’s going to hold you for the rest of your life. But when you sink your roots deeply into a strong gospel centered church and the worship of the Lord just fills your soul and unites you with him and with your brothers and sisters who are worshiping the Lord. When you’re being discipled according to the word, and living according to the spirit and bearing fruit and engaging in ministry, this will help you to know what is scripturally grounded. And so if you hear the different words like grace and evangelization and mercy and things like that from your Roman Catholic friends, you know what those words mean in your church’s context. Hold onto that very deeply.

Then, please love your Catholic neighbors and friends and family members. Don’t yell at them or get mad at them or bicker with them over this stuff. Share what God is doing in your life. Share the good news. Invite them in that reading the Bible with you, because we know that faith comes by hearing, hearing by the word of Christ. If you share the good news and get into a Bible study with your Catholic friends and neighbors, God will be faithful to ignite faith in them through the good news that you’re sharing.

Andrew Marcus:

Amen. I love that. Yeah. It’s this balance of grace and truth, and if we just have way too much truth, we’ll be attacking and arguing and bickering. If you have too much grace, you’re pointing them to the hope. Just kind of having this balance of to love them well, to be gracious, and I love how you just said, just share what God’s doing in your life. That’s huge, and no one can argue with that. I’m so grateful for your time, and thank you for being with us today and all the best to all that you’re doing in ministry and in your life.

Gregg Allison:

Thank you for the privilege of being able to share the good news with your audience. I really deeply appreciate it.

Andrew Marcus:

Praise God. I love you, brother. Thank you so much.

Gregg Allison:

I love you. Thank you.

Andrew Marcus:

Hey, thanks so much for joining us today. For more great content, check out the In Doubt Show on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Music, or wherever you stream your podcast. We hope you enjoyed it today. Feel free to check out indoubt.ca. We have some great resources available to you. Have an awesome day.

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