Ep. 44: Dealing With a Commercialized Christmas

Andrew Marcus:

Hey, this is Andrew Marcus from THE INDOUBT SHOW. We got a fantastic program today. But first, I just want to let you know it is our calendar year-end, and we’re reaching out to all of our supporters, all of our listeners, to raise $45,000 by December 31st. This is huge for us, but it positions us for effective ministry in 2024. We really appreciate your support. You can give at indoubt.ca, or you can call the studio at 1-800-663-2425.

We have a fantastic program today. We’re talking about consumerism. We have Andy Frew in studio, we also have Bryan Pue. Hey, Pue and Frew rhymes. They’re both in studio with us, as well as Chris. And we’re just talking about healthy consumption, the dangers of this commercialized Christmas season, and how we can prepare ourselves for the season ahead.

Now, you’re going to hear that Bryan is getting some Amazon packages in the studio, so we’ll see if this program can actually help him as well.

Well, we’ve got Andy Frew in the house. Andy, how are you doing, man?

Andy Frew:

I’m doing great. Doing great.

Andrew Marcus:

So it’s been a long time. I had hair when I saw you last.

Andy Frew:

You know what? You covered it up with a hat, but you had hair.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah. Even when I had hair, I had a hat. I should have just enjoyed.

Andy Frew:

Just let it go.

Andrew Marcus:

Because now I wear a hat all the time to hide my shame. But you’re doing well?

Andy Frew:

Doing real well.

Andrew Marcus:

Family life is good?

Andy Frew:

Yeah, family life is great.

Andrew Marcus:

I want to just talk about this topic. We’re leading up to Christmas, and the temptation is to go out and buy, go on Amazon, buy a bunch of stuff. And just consume, consume, consume, thinking that it’s going to make us happy.

So Andy, we want to talk about this and get a biblical perspective. But first, could we define consumerism, in the context of this conversation, leading up to Christmas? What would we say?

Andy Frew:

Yeah, because consumer-ism, as a whole, we’re consumers, that’s the way that God created us. We go back to the garden, they didn’t consume at that point, they still needed food, they didn’t need clothes, necessarily. We’re grateful that we have those now. But I think the consumer-ism, this idea, is when we place an inappropriate amount of value on the things that we desire, or even on the means, the way that we actually approach that. So it’s that disproportionate attention that we give to the things that we need, and the value that we put on those things.

Andrew Marcus:

So, if we’re wired that way, then, there must be a good way of consuming?

Andy Frew:

Yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

And a bad way of consuming?

Bryan Pue:

Why, dude? I already said I was sorry.

Andrew Marcus:

I know, but I’m blown away that you used our studio address to get your packages delivered.

Bryan Pue:

I made some bad decisions. I panicked, I was feeling shame, and I just clicked to send it here. Obviously, we got to talk this through.

Andrew Marcus:

We do.

Bryan Pue:

Yes. I need to be here.

Andy Frew:

Yeah.

Bryan Pue:

Ah, man.

Andrew Marcus:

So there is a good way to consume.

Andy Frew:

Yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

And then there’s a bad way. What is the good way and the bad way of consumption look like?

Andy Frew:

Oh, man. I feel like this is the question that we have, and we talk about it now at Christmastime, often, just with the things that we buy. But this is the path that we have to walk as followers of Jesus, because it is this thing of idolatry, really. And so this, “How do we figure out? How do we actually place the right amount of value onto these things?” Because, you know what? I’m going to need to eat lunch a little bit later on. I can do that by going home, and eating the food that I have in my house that’s good for me. And I can use it to actually give me the energy to do the work that God has called me to. Or, I can pass any number of fast food places on the way home, pick up, which is what I want to do, which is the temptation that’s there.

Andrew Marcus:

We always want to do.

Andy Frew:

We always want to do that. And it’s not good for me financially, it’s not good for me physically, and ultimately it’s not good for me spiritually. Because of the way that I’m saying, “This is going to give me what I need.” When I know it’s not, and I’m going out of my way to do things the wrong way to get what I think I want. That’s a really roundabout sentence to try to get there.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah. That’s good.

Andy Frew:

But I think that this is the picture of even thinking about your ministry over with Union, the way that we are built as sensual sexual beings, the way that we go about consuming that. God has placed boundaries around those things.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah, absolutely.

Andy Frew:

And we choose to go about those things the wrong way. We have lots of explanation in the scripture, and direction that we are given to live out the lives that God has created us to live.

Andrew Marcus:

Totally.

Andy Frew:

But we choose the wrong way so often.

Bryan Pue:

Yeah. And I think in our cultural moment too, where there’s a hyper-focus on shaping your own identity, and I love how you connected this to idolatry. This isn’t just about financial stewardship, this is a matter of the heart, and a matter of identity. And we find so much in the things that we buy.

Andrew Marcus:

Which clearly you are working.

Bryan Pue:

I’m trying to demonstrate what maybe other people might be struggling with.

Andrew Marcus:

Right. Let this be a lesson. This is like the bike lessons.

Bryan Pue:

But I was thinking, I heard it said that the love of God prioritizes all our other loves.

Andy Frew:

That’s right.

Bryan Pue:

So if we really put the Lord first, it’s not wrong like shoes to be a… what do they call them? A sneakerhead. It’s not wrong to do that, or to like nice clothes. But when those things start to compete for that place that only the Lord is supposed to have, and like you mentioned with the work that we do as sexuality and identity, sexual desire is a gift from God. We can’t fulfill the commandment to be fruitful and multiply without a sexual desire. But when that desire starts to supersede the place that only the Lord is supposed to have, that’s when we run into trouble.

Andy Frew:

And I find that to be an interesting thing too, because the things that God has given us needs for and commands to do, he gives us pleasure in those things. Honestly, guys, you might remember this from our time that we’ve spent. I love food. I love it.

Andrew Marcus:

That’s fantastic.

Andy Frew:

People like cooking for me because we sit down, and I’m going on and on about how great the food is, and I take great joy in that. But when it’s out of balance, it’s a problem. And because it really does, it’s not good for you physically. It is also a spiritual thing because God has said, “I want you to have this. I want you to want this, but I want you to want it in this thing because this is how I designed you.” And when we take it outside of that, it becomes dangerous to us in so many different ways.

Bryan Pue:

Totally.

Andrew Marcus:

It’s a good word. Because not a lot of people realize the spiritual connection to financial stewardship, or all that stuff, but it’s very spiritual. Even I’m driving home, I want to drive through at a fast food establishment when I know it’s better for me to go home. There’s a spiritual thing attached to that too, which not a lot of people may realize.

Bryan Pue:

Yeah. Well, again, it’s a matter of the heart, Jesus says, “Where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.” And I think our bank statement probably tells us a lot about what’s going on in our heart, man. Because I feel just as empty now. I felt great when the boxes came through, except for the shame, and the judgment I was getting across this table.

Andrew Marcus:

No judgment.

Bryan Pue:

Oh, there’s a little bit. That’s fine. It’s okay. We can be honest, it’s a safe place. Just be honest. But when the boxes came through, that moment of something new. And then it’s like, “Now I’m longing for another box to come through, and I just don’t know when is that going to happen.”

Andrew Marcus:

So, obviously, consuming things doesn’t actually make us happy. It don’t make us happy. We think it does. And there’s maybe an initial, when you first got the packages, “Ooh!” But then I realize in my life, it’s just stuff, and stuff is starting to annoy me.

Andy Frew:

Yeah.

Bryan Pue:

Dude.

Andrew Marcus:

I’m very annoyed with stuff.

Bryan Pue:

I think, too, one of my least favorite things to do is to move. And it’s like when you help a friend move, or you have to pack up-

Andrew Marcus:

Okay, I didn’t know what you meant by, I didn’t mean actually, just physically-

Andy Frew:

Just, he doesn’t like to get up out of that chair.

Andrew Marcus:

Exactly. You’ve been sitting there for weeks.

Bryan Pue:

Chris actually carried me over here.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah, I noticed. I’m like, “Why are you on Chris’s back? First of all.”

Bryan Pue:

He is such a good dude.

Andrew Marcus:

Such a good dude.

Bryan Pue:

No, sorry. I meant I hate moving, like packing up all your stuff, and having to move to a different home. But what the thing is it’s so crazy you don’t realize how much stuff we have in the West until we try to pack it up, dude. Anyway, I could go off on that.

Andrew Marcus:

And I mean, you obviously have a real problem.

Bryan Pue:

Why are you making this about me?

Andrew Marcus:

No, I just would not… if you are moving, and you call me, I know-

Andy Frew:

You know there’s going to be some stuff that you’re – .

Bryan Pue:

Some of these are for other people.

Andrew Marcus:

That’s true.

Bryan Pue:

Because Jesus said, “It’s better to give than to receive.” The small one is for somebody else.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah. Amazing. Okay, so let’s dive through. What can we do to encourage the people around us, Christians and non-believers alike, to consider this perspective of consumerism, and how we’ve just commercialized Christmas, and it’s all about stuff?

Andy Frew:

Oh, man. Well, I find this to be such an interesting topic because every single Christmas movie, the message is, “It’s not about getting stuff, it’s about family, it’s about these things.” But it’s like we look at that, and go, “Yeah, yeah, yeah. I get it, I get it, I get it.” Also, Amazon, “This is the way that we just do stuff.” We still. So it’s not even like it’s just a Christian idea that stuff is not going to fill that void. That is it. People find that out, right?

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah.

Andy Frew:

I just got back from a fun vacation in a distant beach.

Andrew Marcus:

You look tanned.

Andy Frew:

Do I?

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah.

Andy Frew:

It’s the lights. It’s the makeup.

Andrew Marcus:

It’s the makeup.

Andy Frew:

It was the makeup beforehand. A lot of bronzer.

But to talk to people who are, they are living this life, being at a resort is the thing. But also, I think they find that it’s not, there’s this expectation that it is going to give you this thing. So, I find this conversation interesting because as Christians, we are supposed to be coming from that perspective, and living that out in the day-to-day. We know that we were meant for something more. When we talk about even thinking about eternity, we are not taking anything with us. This is a biblical concept. We’re not. We’re walking away, leaving everything behind. And I think we have to live by example. But actually, forgive me for taking all the time here, going even further back.

Andrew Marcus:

This is what you’re here for, bro.

Bryan Pue:

This is it. This is it. This is the pastoral moment.

Andy Frew:

This goes back to the question for us as Christians, and this is where it starts to diverge, I think. It’s that, “Where are our affections? Where is our stuff coming from?” Because it’s not just behavior, it’s not, “Do this, and then you will experience this.” We can’t say to the world, “If you buy less stuff, you’ll be happier.” That might be true, but it also might not be true, because where is that source of joy coming from? I often talk about the fact that when it comes to the way that I live being obedient to God’s call on my life, I liken it to my marriage. I love my wife. And God’s direction to me is that I am to be faithful to her. I am not faithful to my wife, solely, because God’s word says I have to be because the world says you need to not cheat.

I’m faithful to my wife because I love her, and I want our relationship to grow, and to deepen, and I want her to love me in that same way. And out of that love for her, out of that desire, for that to grow that way, I stay faithful to her. And when it comes to this side of things, if we don’t have that rootedness in a love for the Lord. For the fact that he tells us to love him, and love others, and then those other things tend to work out. So if we’re not coming from that place as the standard, as the basis, we’re not going to find, we’re going to need things, we’re going to need these things to actually build us up.

Bryan Pue:

Yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

Going to scripture, what are ways that the Bible guides Christians on what it looks like for responsible stewardship? Especially, obviously, I know we talk about this all the time during Christmas, but it’s obviously an all year problem, and then we address it during Christmas every year.

Andy Frew:

Totally. Yeah, I think we could devote an entire new Indoubt podcast-

Andrew Marcus:

Just on this.

Andy Frew:

Just on this. Just because the Bible is so prolific when it comes to this. You go through the book of Proverbs, so much stuff, for us to actually jot down all of those things would just take ages and ages. Even thinking about Ecclesiastes, and you have the writer of Ecclesiastes who has experienced, who has owned, who has tasted everything, everything, and ultimately comes to the conclusion that it’s meaningless. This is a chasing after the wind. It doesn’t work. This thing that we think is going to do it for us, it doesn’t work. So that is an amazing place for us to look at that, because the conclusion is, “Yeah, it’s meaningless apart from God.” Well, for us on this side of the new covenant, apart from Jesus’ atoning work for us, it is meaningless and pointless.

When we get into the New Testament, we have so much. We have so much, I love Jesus giving the parables, even thinking of the parable of the rich man in Luke 12. Should I read this?

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah, sure. Do it.

Bryan Pue:

Let’s read this.

Andy Frew:

“The land of a rich man produced plentifully. And he thought to himself, what shall I do, for I have nowhere to store my crops. And he said, I will do this. I will tear down my barns and build larger ones, and there I will store all my grain and goods. And I’ll say to my soul, soul…” I love, that’s one of my favorite lines in the Scripture. “I’ll say to my soul, soul, you have ample goods laid up for many years. Relax, eat, drink, be merry.” That sums up our whole society. This is exactly what we all tell ourselves, and I think Christians do this as well. But God said to him, “Fool, this night, your soul is required of you. Your life is done, and the things you have prepared, whose will they be? So is the one who lays up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.”

Andrew Marcus:

Oh, man.

Andy Frew:

That’s such a great microcosm of everything that we live through in this way, where we have this picture of the way that it should be done. And God says, “No, this is not. This is not it.”

Andrew Marcus:

I love that. And I just love like, “Hey, you’re done when you’re not rich towards God.”

Andy Frew:

Yeah. And so even that, if we’re talking exegesis, and they start to draw conclusions and interpretations from this, if the problem is this misery or misery, right? I love that that’s the same word. The actual solution to this.

Andrew Marcus:

It’s the same.

Andy Frew:

It’s the same word.

Andrew Marcus:

I was, today, years old. Continue.

Andy Frew:

Unless it’s spelled with two S’s and I just didn’t know. It’s missery.

Andrew Marcus:

That’s missery.

Andy Frew:

Missery. But no, but the antidote to that selfishness is actually generosity toward God specifically. And he gives us an example of that. When you do these things for the least of these, it’s not just specifically, I believe it definitely is talking about tithing and actually storing up. We’re investing in eternity in the lives of those who are around us. But also specifically meeting the needs of those who are desperate for it, I think is a huge piece of that.

Bryan Pue:

I think what you said of having that eternal perspective is so key, because this is where a lot of people can get really bent out of shape. “Well, I have the liberty to do this. I’ve earned this money.” And it’s like, “Well, we read in Deuteronomy.” That it’s like, “The Lord is the one who gives you the power to make wealth.” But he says, “The reason I give you that power is so that I might establish the covenant, which I swore to your fathers.” So there’s this covenantal reality connected to the power to make wealth, and that it’s not just about our own getting. But are we having the kingdom mindset that’s about making the Gospel known, the covenantal promise that God has made towards humanity in Christ. Are we motivated to make that known? Is that our sacrificial service of worship in honoring the Lord with all areas of our life?

Because I’ve just been thinking as you were talking, too, like Jesus saying that, “You can’t serve God and mammon.” And what’s so crazy is that the word mammon is actually not just a name for finances or for money. It’s actually connected to a Canaanite deity named Mammon that promised financial prosperity. So, he’s saying, “You can’t serve this system, and you can’t serve this way of life, and serve me at the same time.” Now, that doesn’t mean you don’t have a savings account. That doesn’t mean you’re not wise and doing investments. There’s nothing wrong with that. But it’s just like, “What really has your heart? Does mammon have your heart? Or does Jesus have your heart? Are you motivated for the kingdom, or are you building your own kingdom?” Because that’s what mammon would promise you, is like, “You can build your own kingdom for yourself.”

Andy Frew:

Yeah. Because you head over to 1 Timothy 6, “Those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction.” And then that passage that we always take out of context, “For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs.” So again, it does come back to this issue of affection, of desire, of where our hearts are.

Because continuing on in that chapter, Paul is telling Timothy, “You need to talk to the rich people in your church.” Because they were there, we’re not looking at a group of people who were just a bunch of people living in some poor community. There were affluent people, and they were part of this church. So like you’re saying, this isn’t an issue of right and wrong, wealth is bad, poverty is good, kind of thing. But as for the rich in this present age, charge them not to be haughty, nor to set their hopes on the uncertainty of riches, because they can go. But on God, who richly provides us with everything to enjoy.

And I love that too, because again, it’s this thing. God has given us these things. He knows they’re good. “They are, though, to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous, and ready to share, thus storing up treasures for themselves as a good foundation for the future. So that they may take hold of that which is truly life.” Because you find, when you put all this weight on something that was never meant to carry it, and this again, I know this is a resounding thing. It’s like a relationship. The person who thinks, “If I can just find someone who will love me, I will be okay. I will be happy. I will be filled with joy.” And for a time that might be the case. But then when that person lets them down, it’s a disaster. That person was never meant to carry the weight that we are to put on our Heavenly Father, who gives us all those good things.

Bryan Pue:

Yeah, totally.

Andrew Marcus:

This is good.

Andy Frew:

And convicting, though, right?

Andrew Marcus:

I was going to say, “I’m getting pretty massively convicted.” Because I feel like, I know the Amazon packages are coming for him, but I have some coming to the house.

Andy Frew:

Well, that’s the thing. I mean when we talk-

Bryan Pue:

No, this says, “Andrew Marcus.”

Andrew Marcus:

Oh, that’s mine. Oh, man. Well, we won’t bring that up.

Andy Frew:

But even when we’re thinking about, “How do we combat this?” I was thinking about this on the way over, and just thinking about the fact that I combat this idea of commercialism, and I combat that at Christmastime by getting all of those things in June. I’m not going to think about it when I actually get to Christmas.

Andrew Marcus:

Ain’t get anything in Christmas.

Andy Frew:

Right. I’m one of those guys, too, though. I joke about being the oldest person in this room, but there is something that over time that I think that the younger generation, and I hate that I’m even saying that because I’m one of you. I’m desperately one of you.

Andrew Marcus:

The guy is so young, man.

Andy Frew:

No, but the fact that I have young adult children.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah, that’s a little weird.

Andy Frew:

Yeah. It’s just a whole thing.

Andrew Marcus:

He had kids when he was like 9.

Andy Frew:

These good Baptist boys that get started real, real early.

Bryan Pue:

Wow.

Andy Frew:

But the fact that I when I think about what is actually important to me and these things, I don’t put weight on Christmas the way that I used to. When I was a kid, I can remember my parents would be like, “What’s on your list?” We would, I’m old enough, we’d get out the Sears catalog.

Andrew Marcus:

Oh, buddy. I did too, man.

Andy Frew:

Yeah. You’re not too far away from me, but you’re far enough away. Far enough.

Andrew Marcus:

Okay. We’ll be right back up this message from RO game.

Bryan Pue:

RO game.

Andrew Marcus:

Okay. But you cut out all this stuff. You make your own little list?

Andy Frew:

Yeah. But there was so much weight put on birthdays and Christmas. And I think that this also is, I’m jumping all over the place in this discussion, but I think this is where it needs to go to an extent. How do we actually battle this? How do we combat this? And part of it, honestly, is us as parents, as pastors, as people involved with people. We have to be teaching, and we have to be modeling the fact that this isn’t what this is about. And we can go back as far as we want celebrating Christmas, and whatever your understanding is of, “Was this a pagan holiday?” All of those things that you just want to… it doesn’t matter. We live here now, and this is what Christmas has become. We have to be the ones who are actually changing the narrative as we go. And some of that comes from the discussions, “Do our kids…” And I have a 6-year-old. She wants everything that she sees. And so I was at Value Village just yesterday getting that sweet sweater-

Andrew Marcus:

You should have seen his original idea. A little bit sketchy. He sent me a picture, was a little uncomfortable.

Andy Frew:

But if you take a 6-year-old into a Value Village, you got to stay away from the toy section because, “I want this.” And she pulled out this hideous stuffy with big eyes, and she said, “I want this.” And I said, “No, this is not what we’re doing.” “Can I put it on my list?” And in this moment, this is a parenting fail that I can share. I’m like, “Yes, we can put it on your list.” And I take a picture of it. But there’s trying to find ways for us to take the weight off of these things, and to be reminded. Years ago, there was an organization, and I don’t even necessarily want to say who they are because I don’t know where they’re at, and all that I have no idea. But either way, their whole thing was trying to change the narrative at Christmastime.

So it was an idea that instead of us putting together these Christmas lists as families, and saying, “Hey, what do you want? What do you want? What do you want?” Saying, “Hey, what are we going to do as a family?” We’re going to intentionally spend less money on each other.

Bryan Pue:

That’s really good.

Andy Frew:

When you go back to look at the stats, it’s expected that this year, Americans, and apparently Canadians, are worse when it comes to Christmas spending. But Americans are expected to spend almost a trillion dollars this year. A trillion.

Bryan Pue:

Whoa.

Andrew Marcus:

What?

Andy Frew:

So in 2002, that number was right around 400 billion. Is that the right number? Yeah, 400 billion. So, in 20 years, it’s more than doubled for what we’re actually spending. And like I said, Canadians are apparently worse. So trying to, as Christians who know what we’re supposed to do, this is the other side of it. We have God’s word that’s instructing us. We are to do this, to spend less on one another, to find ways to be intentionally generous, and completely shifting the focus from, “What are we going to get?” “What are we going to give, and how are we going to bless those around us? How are we going to actually make a difference for those who don’t have what we have?” Because we’re loaded. It’s ridiculous.

Bryan Pue:

Yeah. My wife and I, we talk about it a lot. Like all these commandments to the rich that we see in the Scripture, and we have a tendency to like, “Oh, look at that person.” Because they make more money than we do. But if we step back, we live in North America. We step back, in North America and Europe, some parts of Europe, we are the rich in the context of the world.

Andrew Marcus:

Yes.

Andy Frew:

Without a question.

Bryan Pue:

We are the ones whom Jesus is talking about. And I think that’s the thing we need to keep at the forefront of our minds. It’s how much we’ve been shaped by our culture, because I heard somebody say, “Spiritual formation isn’t just a Christian practice, it’s a human practice.” Because we’re all being shaped, and it just depends. Are you being shaped by consumerism? Are you being shaped by the pattern of this world, or are you being shaped by God? And that doesn’t mean that you, like we’re talking about, that you can’t have some of these things. But is the question, the old cliché Christian statement, “But do these things have you?” That’s the question we need to be asking.

Andy Frew:

Yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

We hope you enjoyed this conversation. Andy, thank you so much for joining us in the studio, man.

Andy Frew:

It’s a good time, man.

Andrew Marcus:

I’m so grateful to hear. Bryan, thank you for being third chair.

Bryan Pue:

Thanks for having me.

Andrew Marcus:

We hope you enjoy today’s episode. We have a few more episodes just tackling different things about the Christmas season. We hope it’s a blessing to you. And we will see you next week.

Hey, thanks so much for joining us today. For more great content, check out THE INDOUBT SHOW on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Music, or wherever you stream your podcast. We hope you enjoyed it today. Feel free to check out indoubt.ca. We have some great resources available to you. Have an awesome day.

Hey, this is Andrew from THE INDOUBT SHOW. It is December. And what does that mean for us as a ministry? This is our calendar year-end. It is our goal to raise $45,000 by the end of this year. What is that going to do? It’s going to help prepare for another solid year of ministry in resourcing young people with truth. And so we would love to encourage you to give and be a part of what God is doing with this ministry. You can give at indoubt.ca. Thank you so much. God bless you.