Ep. 49: Q&A Panel Discussing Sexuality, Identity and Relationships

Andrew Marcus:

Hey everybody. Welcome to THE INDOUBT SHOW. It’s Andrew Marcus here. We got a different program for you today. A few months back, we were at the Union Conference with Bryan and Bonnie Pue. They’ve been on the show multiple times and THE INDOUBT SHOW got to do the program live in front of a studio audience, which was so fun. We hope to do that again this year. But we’re going to take you back to the audio of that conversation where we got to do a Q&A interview, some of the speakers of the conference, and talk about identity, sexuality, relationships, marriage, dating, all kinds of stuff. And so it’s going to be a great program. We hope you enjoy it. God bless.

Okay, so we have a couple guests with us. We’re here at Union Conference. It’s been amazing. And before we dive into our guests, maybe, Bryan, give us, because the people who are watching on YouTube or listening on AudioWorld, some of them were not at conference, and so tell them a little bit about conference, about your vision for conference, and maybe even just remind us about your ministry and what your heart is.

Bryan Pue:

Yeah, I appreciate that, man. So the heart of the Union is just really to bring a gospel-centered approach that leads to our wholeness in the areas of sexuality, identity, and relationships. And so the vision behind the Union Conference geared towards the kind of young adult demographic is just that same heart. We want to communicate a gospel-centered approach because when it comes to issues of morality there’s so much political jargon or political sides that are taken, and I think our real hope is in what the gospel has to say, the authority of God’s word, and really the flourishing that comes from when we live in line with that. And so we wanted just to create a space for young adults just to encounter the presence of God and encounter the power of his word. And so that’s what this whole event’s been about.

Andrew Marcus:

Awesome, man. It’s been going so well, man.

Bryan Pue:

I love it, man. Honestly, I’ve just been so pumped up every single day. I should be tired and I’m not.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah. Come on.

Bryan Pue:

Praise God for that.

Andrew Marcus:

You’ll for sure crash tomorrow.

Bryan Pue:

Yes. My phone will be turned off tomorrow.

Andrew Marcus:

Two guests in the house today, which I’m super pumped about. We have Jim Anderson, who’s pastor, author of a book called Unmasked: Exposing the Cultural Sexual Assault, traveling speaker, mentor, an absolute legend. I’ve loved just being around you the last couple of days. So grateful for your ministry, man. And Jonathan Bryden is also with us. Come on. Yes, come on. That’s right. That’s not a sound bite, folks. That’s real people. Jonathan Bryden, my production manager, production manager at Focus on the Family, and evangelists. All of you are doing such important work and I’m so grateful to be in your presence today. I really appreciate it.

So we’re getting lots of questions in. This is amazing. I told him, I’m like, “What happens if no one writes anything?” “Just make up a question.” No, I’m just kidding. I’m totally kidding. We believed. We had faith in all of you. So we’ll go through some of these questions. The first one here is, this is to Jonathan, “As a single person, what are your tips for building connection outside of dating?”

Jonathan Bryden:

Good question. I think there was a point in my life where I was like, “Hey, Lord, what does intimacy look like as a single person in the church?” And I would try to connect with people and build something. And especially when I was younger, I was quite needy, I was quite emotional, and I think that came off to people and I would find people wanting to push away rather than draw close. And so I felt like, “Man, I’m so desperate in this. I don’t know how to do this well.” But I think the Lord brought me to the place where one thing, He said like, “I want you to,” in my relationship with the Lord, He’s like, “I want you to pursue me first, not what I can do for you first.”

And so from that place, when I started to seek Jesus first and prioritize my time alone with Him and seeking Him, that’s when He began to add these other things that my heart was longing for. He taught me to have relationships with other people and He would bring them in. And then also on top of that, I got to a place where I was like, “Lord, I need quality people in my life, who I can do life with, who love me, who actually want to invest in me.” And I asked the Lord directly for it. The scripture says, “Every good and perfect gift comes from the Father above, the Father of heavenly lights where there is no shifting shadow.” So ask the Lord for those relationships. And wait, and wait to see what the Lord will do, and look for His answer because He is able to give us that which we need. So I think those two things, seek Jesus first and ask Him for those relationships and they will come.

Andrew Marcus:

So good. Thank you, man. That’s awesome. Praise God. Another question here, 23-year-old male, “How do I deal with insecurity of being single and wanting to have a beautiful girlfriend and wife one day?” I’ll open the floor.

Bryan Pue:

Yeah. I think so much of what Jonathan just touched on, we’re seeking first the Lord. And I know this scriptures about money. You know what I mean? You seek first the kingdom of heaven and all these things will be added to you. One of the things that has been just really helpful for us is just to be, what is God calling? I was just thinking in my singleness, just a lot of the counsel I was getting and the wisdom that I was getting from people who were in my life and just seeking the Lord was to serve the Lord, be running after what He’s called you to in that season. And just the counsel I was getting was that God is able to bring that teammate who’s doing the same thing as you are because you want to be married to a disciple. You want to be pursuing that relationship with somebody who’s heading in the same direction.

And what they would say is, it’s like “As you keep running after the Lord, you come to these points where you lift your head up and look around and you realize, ‘Oh.'” Like in my case, you’d be like, “Bonnie’s doing the same thing. Okay, let’s just keep running after the Lord.” You know what I mean? And then the Lord finds a way to bring these people across these paths. And I think a lot of times people make decisions out of fear. They make decisions out of fear of being alone and those insecurities. And those are just not great leaders. Those are not great masters. We just really need to submit our heart to the Lord. And be in community, have a lot of great friends. And who knows what comes out of that genuine community because again, you want to be pursuing a relationship with a friend too. So that’s just my thought. What do you guys think? Throw it down to the other end here. What do you think, Jim?

Jim Anderson:

Yeah. Well in practical, it’s kind of like, “Okay.” I always say the guys can be a bit in the driver’s seat, and the scripture says he that finds a wife, finds a good thing. And I always say to the guys, “Look, it’s not criminal activity to be interested in a young woman.” Did all the men hear that, who are single? It’s not criminal activity to be interested in a young woman. Did you hear what I said? And I think we’ve had men been attacked for their aggression, for their initiative, for their risk taking. We have the toxic masculinity kind of thing and it’s affected us. It’s affected men. And I think we talked about mentors, I think a very practical thing is you have a mentor and if you’re noticing somebody in your fellowship, in your ministry, in your community, you start praying and you maybe talk to your mentor, just to get that on the table. It’s kind of practical, like “What do you think? And I’ve been praying about this and I’m drawn to her.”

And I think that can be really a very natural, positive, kind of a protective in a way. It’s like I kind of talk about Millennial counsel and Millennial counsel is I do this, then I talk to my mentor and say, “”I just did this. What do you think? It’s kind of like I asked for their advice after I do something. I call that Millennial counsel, kind of like a joke. But it’s kind of common. And I think why didn’t you just maybe talk before you had made that decision? Because then the mentor is put in the position of, “What do I do now? Now I’m the bad guy no matter what happens.”

And I think that that’s that part of that trust, but it’s the biggest area in your life to trust the Lord with and other people with. And having that mentor that believes in you and will just encourage you, I think is a great starting point of just having that dialogue. And the mentor’s not going to say, “Oh, criminal activity. What? You are interested in someone?” No, they’re going to encourage that. And I think we need to see more of that happening in-

Andrew Marcus:

That’s a good word.

Jim Anderson:

In community.

Andrew Marcus:

That’s awesome. Anybody else want to say anything? This is so good, man. So here’s a question directed at Jim. So hold the mic still. “How much worse, if at all, is the culture for youth now than when you were in your 20s?” The difference in how much worse, if at all, is the culture now than it was when you were in your 20s

Jim Anderson:

I think that when we’re in the discipleship school we talk about sexual stuff, we don’t talk about body parts. I mean, we get to the point where you say, “We could write on the whiteboard all the sexual things that people can do with each other.” We could probably do it in 20 minutes, just write, exhaust everything. Because it’s not about that. It’s not about body parts. It’s really about the heart. So I think the fact of sexual things that are done, if anything, it’s just kind of dropped back in age group. What was done with college freshmen or in college, 10 years later it was starting to happen with seniors in high school. And then we add another 10 years, and now it’s happening with freshmen. We add another 10 years and it’s happening with the junior high, and now it’s happening with sixth graders.

And we know this. The enemy keeps going after the most vulnerable. He’s a predator. This is his thing, is the vulnerable and the innocent. And molestation, being touched in the wrong way as a little boy or girl is kind of the ultimate of it just keeps pressing down as far as it can to create that kind of hurt and damage.

So I think we see the same stuff. You see the same patterns. You see there’s no new thing under the sun. And we know that the Baal spirit that I talked about, that’s years ago in the Old Testament, but the same spirit’s alive today. We’re not dealing with anything new. Like Martha talks to Pointdexter or Pointdexter the man’s talking to Martha, “Martha. It’s never been like this before. So much sexuality everywhere. What are we going to do, Martha? What are we going to do?” And Martha goes, “Pointdexter, it’s always been like this. There’s always been a false God, competing with the true God.” And it’s a sexual spirit. And so there’s nothing new under the sun.

And we just have to, I think to me, if anything, it increases the sense of urgency, appropriate urgency, in the church to break the sound barrier and begin to address it. I mean, when I begin to hear little girls are getting their breasts cut off because off gender confusion, it haunted me. How much more are we going to wait to begin to talk to a generation about sexuality? What next thing, what’s really going to make us say ,”We’re doing this now?” That was it for me. I mean, I’ve been doing this for 30 years, so it just haunted me. But I’m hoping that those kind of things are going to awaken the fathers and mothers. And I believe there’s fathers and mothers, they’re beginning. Leaders in churches, I’m praying, and we’re seeing courage. We’re seeing a commitment to do this. So I’m excited about it.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah. Amen. Amen. You were going to say something about when you were in your 20s?

Bryan Pue:

When I was in my 20s? Well, no, but the one thing-

Jim Anderson:

20 years.

Bryan Pue:

20 years.

Jim Anderson:

20 years ago.

Bryan Pue:

20 years ago. 18. Oh my goodness. Man, that’s crazy.

Andrew Marcus:

We just aged him folks.

Bryan Pue:

Yeah. 38. No, but I think one of the things we’re seeing, not to go to that context in timeframe, but I think there has been a significant shift in a couple of areas where there’s kind of an eroding of the hierarchy of relationships within society, within the family. There used to be moms and dads and they were accountable and they were responsible for the children. And the children should be accountable to moms and dads. And that’s obviously a biblical design. And kids should honor their mothers and fathers.

But now that relationship is being eroded by a lot of what we’re seeing in society where now it’s like, “Let’s bypass mom and dad.” And because a lot of our neo-Marxism within society that sees that relationship as oppressive and it’s stifling the next generation, it’s stifling children and who they really are. So we have Marxism saying that that hierarchy relationship and even the church’s influence in the younger generation is actually just stifling their development. And then we mix that with Freudian thought that says the true self is connected to who they are sexually. So how do we help a young generation grow and thrive? We get rid of relationships that’s meant for their flourishing, meant for their care and support. And we get rid of that relationship between moms and dads and we hypersexualize children. And I think if we were going to look back, that’s where there’s been an incredibly, how would you say, just large, a very large shift. It’s just been really, really intense.

Andrew Marcus:

No, that’s such a good word. It’s just so good, man. Okay, we’ll jump to another question here. This is a good question actually. “Is it okay to sleep over at your girlfriend or boyfriend’s house?”

Bonnie Pue:

Here’s the biblically. Sexual activity is intended for within the covenant of marriage. It’s not like God’s like, “Oh, you’re planning to get married?” But it’s actually covenant of marriage. So what you didn’t say, the question was not, “Is it okay to sleep with my boyfriend or my girlfriend?” The question was, “I’m just in the same house as them.” So I remember my youth pastor saying once, “We have to not just think about right and wrong, but we have to think about wise and unwise.” I think it’s 1 Corinthians 7:1. It says, “It is not good for a man to touch a woman.” I remember reading that as a single person and thinking, “That’s bizarre. What, no high fives? What, no side hugs even? Good old Christian side hug? No side hugs?” But in the original language, it means two things, to light a fire or to bind together.

It’s not good, and it could be both ways. Obviously it’s not good for a woman to do that to a man, man to do that to a woman. That’s not the context of marriage. That’s saying, “You’re not in covenant and you’re doing things that are lighting fires.” And so I would say, reflecting back on myself, I’m like, “There’s no way that I could do that without feeling incredible temptation.” Bryan’s like, “Thanks.” So if we go, it’s not just about what is right and not just right, wrong. It’s like you could make up all these things in your head like, “We’re going to be in different rooms. Or separate sleeping bags.” Or I don’t know, “We’re going to go on a camp out.” Or you could make all these extra boundaries. But it’s like, “Are you investing in your future? Are you stealing?” Maybe you’re hoping to marry one day. Are you even stealing from what is reserved for that time and saying, “I’m going to take it now because I don’t want to be alone.”

Yeah, are you lighting a fire? Are you doing things that are binding yourselves? Because I think that’s an area we sometimes think of boundaries within relationships, dating relationships, as only physical. But we need to realize we actually need emotional boundaries when we’re dating. Can I say that again? We need emotional boundaries when we’re dating because you don’t belong to each other yet.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah.

Jim Anderson:

Come on.

Andrew Marcus:

When we say, that day you make covenant marriage, two become one flesh. And it’s like when you’re dating, you don’t belong to each other yet. The purpose of dating is to discover are we compatible? Is God merging our lives together? Are we to become one flesh? And so we need not just physical boundaries, but also emotional one. And so I mean, even this might be an unpopular thing, but we even don’t let our boys do sleepovers even with their buddies because it’s like, “It’s late at night. You’re probably going to do things that are stupid.” So that would be my insight. Anybody?

I’ve heard of people also saying like, “Oh, it’s really intimate to pray together.” What would you say on that?

Jim Anderson:

You’re going to stay overnight to pray?

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah, it’s like a sleepover, like a 24 hour sleepover prayer night.

Jim Anderson:

You’re talking about an all night prayer meeting. This is revival, right?

Andrew Marcus:

You never heard of those revival meetings?

Bonnie Pue:

Intercession.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah, intercession.

Jim Anderson:

How about meeting at 6:00 A.M. to pray together?

Andrew Marcus:

Why does it have to be a sleepover? Yeah, it doesn’t have to be a 24 hour prayer night.

Bonnie Pue:

I personally think that praying together is a great idea.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah.

Bonnie Pue:

I think that.

Andrew Marcus:

I’ve just heard people say it.

Bonnie Pue:

No, me too. I would be curious what you say, actually. Would you say any reason why a couple shouldn’t pray together? Or what would be the context?

Jim Anderson:

Oh, no. Are you saying, oh, I thought you meant praying together because that’s why you’re staying overnight?

Andrew Marcus:

Oh, no, no, no. That would be the dumbest. That would be lie man,

Jim Anderson:

Oh, you’re talking about a couple praying together.

Andrew Marcus:

That would be a lie.

Jim Anderson:

Oh, excuse me. I put two things together that I guess I-

Bonnie Pue:

Because you’ve led your children through that process of courtship. Was there any advice to them about just be cautious about?

Jim Anderson:

Yeah. I mean, praying on the phone would be different than, I think God is love, and something happens in prayer together. I think you have to be kind of wise. I think you could get really close emotionally praying together and doing that often. We’re back to this emotional protection, which sounds so horrible. Like, “Oh, let’s let the young people connect together. We’re really committed to protection so that no guilt, no shame, nothing can be set up to damage this beautiful thing God’s creating.” And I think we just have to be wise. There’ll be a whole lifetime to pray together afterwards. So I just think it’s kind of wisdom. Are you praying together by yourself? If you’re in a prayer meeting in the living room at the house, man, we have the Anderson house at prayer, we have a living room prayer meetings with all my kids all the time, and there are all sorts of young people in there. And yeah, let’s pray up a storm, man. That’s where you see the heart of somebody. I mean, but just two of you together in intimate prayer? Just you two?

Andrew Marcus:

It could get a little dicey.

Jim Anderson:

And the mentors can say, “Talk about it.”

Bonnie Pue:

Yeah.

Jim Anderson:

Like what happens when you do that? The guy has trouble being honest about it, whatever. It’s just wisdom. We’re back to wisdom. We’re back to what’s smart. It’s like the young high school kids say, “How far can we go? How far can we go and still be Christians?” Is that really the question we’re asking?

Andrew Marcus:

It’s a good answer.

Bryan Pue:

So am I going to be the only one that makes a comment about laying hands suddenly and not being a good idea?

Andrew Marcus:

I think I’d have a few red flags.

Bryan Pue:

Okay. No, but I think this is the point, is we want to, man, I often just, when I hear some questions, and I’m not suggesting that this person asking this question is doing this, but we ask questions and we kind of make up things like, “Well, the Bible doesn’t say blank.” Or, “The Bible doesn’t say this, so therefore God doesn’t have an opinion about it.” It’s like, “No, actually. God speaks to the deeper issue.” It’s like, “Choose wisdom. Don’t let yourself be led in to a foolish place.” Use the knowledge and the understanding that God reveals as wisdom within His word to be like, “You know what? Yeah, I could do that. Yeah, sure, all things are permissible for me, but this would not be beneficial. This would be putting myself into a place where I’d have to fight temptation when the scripture’s saying, ‘Flee temptation.'” Don’t willfully put yourself into a place-

Andrew Marcus:

That’s a good word.

Bryan Pue:

Where you’re going to have to operate in a way that God’s not called you to in the way of righteousness you know it needs.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah, that’s a good word. Okay, so here’s a good question. “What’s one thing your parents could have done differently that would’ve helped you in your sexual identity journey?”

Bryan Pue:

Just while you guys are thinking, I think something that comes to mind for me is just, we’ve been talking about through this conference, the whole goal has just been to break the sound barrier. And I know just generationally speaking, my parents, we didn’t talk about a whole lot that was really meaningful or really speaking to the deeper issues, a lot of surface level conversation, not even dealing really with conflict. I think something I wish was different is not just aiming to have “the talk.” I didn’t wish my parents just had the talk, but that we’d have a lot of conversation on the topic. Because I feel like as I heard somebody say once, “One conversation would be good if you dealt with questions around sexuality one time. Then one conversation would suffice.”

Andrew Marcus:

Right.

Bryan Pue:

But as we’ve been discovering within this event, it’s a daily thing. It’s an hourly thing. It depends how often you go on your socials, you know what I mean? You’re confronted with sexuality. And so I wish that avenue of consistent conversation on the topic would’ve been there.

Jonathan Bryden:

I think one thing that is helpful, and I think it’s really powerful coming from a parent or a grandparent, and Jim you did a little bit already, is sharing their stories of sexual brokenness in the past or areas where they failed, and then the grace they experienced from God in that failure, to those who are quite young. One of the things that we’re facing in our culture right now is children way too young for this conversation being forced into the conversation by the culture. And so I think a lot of, within the Christian community, parents and grandparents and those in the church will be like, “Oh, we can’t expose the kids to these conversations because they’re too young. They’re not able to handle it.” Unfortunately, we’re at the place right now where that’s too late. The kids, they’re getting pushed into it by even their friends and even the conversations from their teachers and what they’re watching on TikTok. It’s all happening.

And so if, at the forefront, even from a young age, and much discernment and wisdom is required in this, but to share stories from their life of like, “Man, this is the brokenness that I went through.” And to share that with the kids so that by the time that they’re in the middle of high school, they’ve heard all the stories about the parents and the grandparents that they went through and they’ve gotten to hear about the grace of God in the grandparents’ life and how they got there. So when they’re confronted with these things, it’s not like, “Whoa, I have no narrative that speaks into this story so I have to adopt the story that the culture is giving and that’s going to be my story because I have no other story.”

We need to know our history, and the kids need to know the history of where do we come from, and how did we as a family get to where we are today? And even with Bonnie sharing about her kids and the moments of like, “Oh, when I was a little girl,” I felt like what you shared, that’s so powerful to hear. And so when it happens in the hearts of the kids, they’re like, “Oh, that reminds me of my story of my aunt. She went through that.” Or, “That reminds me of the story of my grandparent. They went through that. Maybe I should talk to them.”

Bonnie Pue:

Totally. Yeah. Oh, that is the power of, I would say, church community, is that even if you as a parent, you’re like, “I haven’t experienced all those things or all those temptations or all those struggles.” But the power of community is that if we have an atmosphere or a space for testimony, they hear the story of what God can do in a wide variety of circumstances. I know there’s been times even within our local church where our sons, maybe it’s like a baptism service or the preacher alludes to their past, and then our guys, our sons, will say to us, “I had no idea.” And you’re like, “Yeah, because God washes all that stuff off of us.” And so I love that, the power of testimony, and I know that’s something I would say I’m grateful that my dad did, even though he would fumble over his words, but he knew that he wanted to protect us from following that path that he had taken.

Andrew Marcus:

Well, unfortunately, that’s all the time we have today for this episode.

Audience:

Boo.

Andrew Marcus:

I know, I know, I know. Okay. What about maybe next year we could come back and do this again?

Audience:

Whoo!

Andrew Marcus:

Okay, okay, okay. Okay, amazing. For all those who are watching on YouTube or listening on AudioWorld, thank you so much for tuning in, and we will see you next week on THE INDOUBT SHOW.

Hey, thanks so much for joining us today. For more great content, check out THE INDOUBT SHOW on YouTube, Spotify Apple Music, or wherever you stream your podcast. We hope you enjoyed it today. Feel free to check out indoubt.ca. We have some great resources available to you. Have an awesome day.

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