Ep. 55: Quality of Life in Singleness, Dating, Marriage, & Parenting w/ Cliff & Erin Ursel

Andrew Marcus:

Hey, this is Andrew Marcus. Welcome to THE INDOUBT SHOW. If you’re in radio world, which you are because that’s where you’re listening, I hope you’re doing fantastic. Listen, I still have baby brain a little bit with our newborn, and so forgive me if I’m not clear in my speech. But anyways, we’ve got a fantastic program today. We have Cliff and Erin Ursel, who are in ministry at Westside Church of Vancouver. And we’re talking about all things family-related, so singleness, dating, engagement, marriage, parenting, all kinds of stuff. We’re releasing this on Family Day in British Columbia, and so we thought we’ll talk about everything family-related. We hope you enjoy the program and that it’s a blessing to you and that you can get some nuggets to help you. And by nuggets, I mean obviously nuggets of wisdom, not from your local fast food establishment. God bless you. Enjoy the program.

All right. So we have Cliff and Erin Ursel from Westside Church in the studio. How are you guys doing today?

Cliff Ursel:

Fantastic.

Erin Ursel:

Great.

Cliff Ursel:

Amazing. Yeah.

Erin Ursel:

Doing good.

Andrew Marcus:

Do we have a theme song for them?

Erin Ursel:

Ooh.

Andrew Marcus:

Something fun?

Erin Ursel:

Do we have something to just…

Chris B:

See.

Andrew Marcus:

Maybe something actually chill for Cliff. Oh.

Erin Ursel:

Oh, yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

There you go.

Erin Ursel:

This works.

Andrew Marcus:

Cliff and Erin Ursel, Westside Church.

Cliff Ursel:

There you go.

Andrew Marcus:

He’s like, “No. I need heart.”

Erin Ursel:

I’m not feeling that. Give me another one.

Andrew Marcus:

“I not getting… Give me another one.”

Cliff Ursel:

Yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

I’m just kidding. How are you guys doing?

Erin Ursel:

We’re good.

Chris B:

Sorry, I gave you another one. You asked for another one.

Erin Ursel:

Oh, this is much better.

Cliff Ursel:

I like that one better.

Chris B:

Yeah, yeah.

Erin Ursel:

This is much more Cliff vibes.

Andrew Marcus:

Okay.

Cliff Ursel:

Yeah, exactly.

Andrew Marcus:

This one’s 20 minutes long.

Erin Ursel:

Yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

We actually can’t turn it off.

Chris B:

Yeah. Let’s just skip the thing.

Erin Ursel:

Skip the story.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah. So how’s it going? I’m just kidding. How are you guys doing? You guys doing well?

Erin Ursel:

We’re good.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah?

Cliff Ursel:

We’re doing really good. I apologize that we actually nixed that first song. We’re a persnickety couple.

Erin Ursel:

Cliff has very specific music tastes.

Cliff Ursel:

Very specific tastes in music, yes.

Erin Ursel:

Yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah. So what’s your favorite band?

Erin Ursel:

Oh.

Cliff Ursel:

I don’t have a favorite.

Erin Ursel:

No, no.

Andrew Marcus:

Oh, yeah. Okay.

Cliff Ursel:

I have genres. I love funk.

Andrew Marcus:

Okay.

Cliff Ursel:

I love classic rock.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah.

Cliff Ursel:

I love jazz.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah. Jazz, that’s hard music to play.

Cliff Ursel:

Oh, yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

Whenever someone says jazz, I get PTSD because a couple of years ago we tried to do a jazz Christmas.

Erin Ursel:

Oh.

Andrew Marcus:

Until I saw the chord chart and I was like, “Oh, I’ll just keep making mistakes. And that’s kind of jazz.”

Erin Ursel:

Just turn your guitar off.

Andrew Marcus:

I did. I had to press the tuner. I was like, “Oh, I’m just tuning, just tuning, just tuning.” Anyways, so you guys are at Westside now. Tell us a little bit about who you are for our people who aren’t familiar with you guys. What do you guys do right now in ministry life, family life? Give us a little bit of a rundown of the Ursels.

Erin Ursel:

Well, I’d love to tell you what I do in my job, but Cliff always tells me I don’t do a good enough job telling people what I do. So why don’t you tell them what I do?

Cliff Ursel:

Why don’t you start and then I’ll refine it.

Erin Ursel:

No, then he cuts in.

Cliff Ursel:

Yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

We’ll be right back after this message.

Erin Ursel:

I work at Westside Church.

Andrew Marcus:

Nice.

Erin Ursel:

Did we already say that? And I do care ministry and we do classes. And this is where you usually interject.

Cliff Ursel:

I do.

Erin Ursel:

So I never get past… yeah.

Cliff Ursel:

Erin’s gifting, she develops and creates ministries. And so, she took over a care ministry and revamped it so it’s scalable, it’s more effective than it’s ever been. And so, what does she do? I think she innovates ministries at the church, is what she does.

Andrew Marcus:

Cool.

Erin Ursel:

And my job description is Minister of Ministry Development.

Andrew Marcus:

Innovation.

Erin Ursel:

Oh, that’s a good one.

Andrew Marcus:

No, no. I love it.

Erin Ursel:

We should change it.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah. We should change it.

Cliff Ursel:

So one of the things… For care ministry, most churches will have a very reactive care ministry. When there is something significant happening in your family, we will come.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah.

Cliff Ursel:

If it’s a wedding, if it’s a funeral or whatever, where Erin has actually created a part of care ministry that’s proactive.

Andrew Marcus:

Cool.

Erin Ursel:

So we do classes on emotional and spiritual health and integration.

Cliff Ursel:

Yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

Cool. Yeah.

Erin Ursel:

And even some of the conversations we’re having, helping and equipping the church to come alongside people in their lives, equipping the body-

Cliff Ursel:

To care for the body.

Erin Ursel:

… to care for the body.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah. Yeah.

Erin Ursel:

Yeah. So it’s super fun.

Andrew Marcus:

That’s amazing.

Erin Ursel:

That’s part of what I do.

Andrew Marcus:

Very important ministry. Yeah. That’s awesome.

Erin Ursel:

Yeah. What about you? What do you do over there? I’d love to hear.

Cliff Ursel:

Yeah. It’s funny.

Andrew Marcus:

I’d love to know. I’d love to know.

Erin Ursel:

I’d love to know what you do.

Cliff Ursel:

I’m an Associate Pastor at the church. After 30-odd years with Pastor Matt, said, “What do you do?” I said, “I’m a pastor, leader, coach.” And so, that’s kind of what I do, pastor, leader, coach in the church. It’s whatever the church needs, I’ll just kind of come in and serve however I can.

Andrew Marcus:

Amazing. And how long have you guys been at Westside?

Cliff Ursel:

I can answer that, four years. Yesterday was our four-year anniversary.

Andrew Marcus:

Come on.

Cliff Ursel:

Yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

That’s amazing.

Cliff Ursel:

Yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

Happy anniversary.

Cliff Ursel:

Yeah. Thank you.

Andrew Marcus:

That’s awesome. We should have had some…

Erin Ursel:

Thank you.

Andrew Marcus:

Come on, people, cheers. Guys, four years, man.

Cliff Ursel:

Yeah.

Speaker 5:

Party.

Andrew Marcus:

Oh, party. Yeah.

Erin Ursel:

Yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah.

Erin Ursel:

We’re expecting that after.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah. Amazing. So four years. And how long have you guys been married? You said 31 years?

Erin Ursel:

Yeah.

Cliff Ursel:

31 years.

Andrew Marcus:

Two kids.

Erin Ursel:

Two kids.

Andrew Marcus:

I can’t believe one of them is married, because the last time I saw him, I…

Cliff Ursel:

Yeah, our son Levi.

Erin Ursel:

He was getting snuggles.

Andrew Marcus:

I know.

Erin Ursel:

Yep.

Cliff Ursel:

He’s married almost two years, and we love our daughter-in-law. Tamara’s amazing.

Andrew Marcus:

Cool.

Cliff Ursel:

She’s a gift to our son and to our family. So yeah, we’re thankful. And our daughter is 24, Jessie, and she’s now a teacher. She is…

Andrew Marcus:

No way.

Cliff Ursel:

Yeah. Yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

I think I might’ve actually saw that on Facebook.

Cliff Ursel:

Yeah, yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah, that’s cool.

Cliff Ursel:

Yeah. So she’s doing her thing. It’s beautiful. They both love Jesus.

Erin Ursel:

Yeah.

Cliff Ursel:

They’re both serving the church.

Andrew Marcus:

Amazing.

Cliff Ursel:

Yeah.

Erin Ursel:

Yeah.

Cliff Ursel:

We’re thankful.

Andrew Marcus:

What was it like raising kids and pointing them to God throughout their journeys? If you have any wisdom for young parents?

Cliff Ursel:

I can actually answer this.

Erin Ursel:

Do it.

Cliff Ursel:

Because I was talking to somebody yesterday about it. I feel that sometimes when Erin and I will talk about marriage or family, I’m like, “Wow, we are pretty amazing.” As if we knew what we were talking about.

Erin Ursel:

Oh, yeah. We didn’t.

Cliff Ursel:

But we didn’t.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah.

Cliff Ursel:

And I reframe it like this for people that are new and married or with families, “Believe and trust that the Lord is going to guide you in those moments.” When I look back on what I thought was a random conversation about child-rearing or marriage or whatever, there were some hallmark moments that I can take no credit for with my intuition or anything. I look back and I’m like, “That was my heavenly Father being so gracious.”

Andrew Marcus:

Wow. Yeah.

Cliff Ursel:

“And giving us what even we didn’t know we needed at the time.”

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah.

Cliff Ursel:

If I can talk to parents and couples about that, is to just come to know and to believe that the Lord will speak in the moments when you need it.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah. Yeah.

Cliff Ursel:

Our job is to just actually position ourselves to be hearing from the Father.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah.

Erin Ursel:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

That’s a good word.

Erin Ursel:

And to add to that, for all of the worriers like myself, all those conversations and all the fretting that you do to avoid some of the things that you’re most afraid of, you don’t have to. Because God is working and all those.

Cliff Ursel:

Yeah. All things work for the good.

Erin Ursel:

Yeah. So Cliff has been very good for me in reminding me of that, because I tend to be like, “But what if this happens? And what if this happens?”

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah. I’m a worrier, I feel like. And I feel like especially my boy is five years old. And you see what’s happening in kindergartens and in schools and the agenda. And I’m just like, “I just want to…

Erin Ursel:

I know.

Andrew Marcus:

“… just run away.” And so, it’s just a good reminder. No, God’s in control.

Erin Ursel:

Yep.

Andrew Marcus:

He’s going protect our kids. It’s hard to…

Erin Ursel:

I know.

Andrew Marcus:

Do that.

Erin Ursel:

Because we don’t see.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah.

Erin Ursel:

We’re looking back seeing it now.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah. Yeah.

Erin Ursel:

But in the moment, it’s just so easy to try to control what we see.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah.

Erin Ursel:

And God is sovereignly ruling and reigning over all things at all times, at all places, including my precious children.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah.

Erin Ursel:

And an argument could be made that what I was doing early on was undermining that work of the Holy Spirit. Because I remember clearly God saying to me at one point, I really felt a strong disciplinary word from the Lord of, “You’re not the Holy Spirit. And so, as long as you’re always chirping, they’re not going to learn to hear my voice.”

Andrew Marcus:

Wow.

Erin Ursel:

And then, I was like, “Oh, right.” Because when they go out, they’re going to be like, “Where’s mom’s voice?” We’ve got to help them learn to listen and quiet themselves to hear the voice of the Holy Spirit. And when I heard that, I’m like, “Oh, my goodness.” Because of course, I wanted to protect them and I’m thinking-

Andrew Marcus:

Of course.

Erin Ursel:

“I’m actually getting in the way of their ability to hear from the Lord themselves.”

Andrew Marcus:

That’s really hard to get out of the way, though.

Erin Ursel:

I know.

Andrew Marcus:

When they’re little. I guess probably all ages.

Cliff Ursel:

I’ve actually found the hardest age is as they get older and they exercise independence and there’s more of a distance. Looking back for me, the younger, the easier because I could control more.

Andrew Marcus:

Right.

Cliff Ursel:

And I could keep tabs more. But when your kid goes out at 17 years old driving the car, or when they’re a young adult and they think they’re better than they really are as far as being able to navigate, it actually is harder because the stakes are so much higher.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah.

Erin Ursel:

That’s why you want them to know how to discern the voice and truth and all these things early on so when they’re out…

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah. They know.

Erin Ursel:

They do.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah.

Erin Ursel:

Yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

I want to walk through all the different journeys of a person, so even singleness, and maybe have some questions on singleness. We can have some dating, maybe some boundary questions, and we have engagement and we have… And so this is a fun fact. You guys were our marriage mentors for Michelle and I.

Cliff Ursel:

Yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

And we just had our 10-year anniversary, which is wild to think-

Cliff Ursel:

Way to go.

Andrew Marcus:

… we were sitting in your townhouse going through all these questions. But it worked. They’re great. 10 years.

Erin Ursel:

Yeah.

Cliff Ursel:

There you go.

Erin Ursel:

It worked.

Andrew Marcus:

All because of the-

Erin Ursel:

It stuck.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah. It stuck.

Erin Ursel:

Again, I take credit for this, too.

Andrew Marcus:

Everything. She takes credit for everything in my life. Yeah.

Erin Ursel:

We’ve just been keeping a ledger on the side of all the things you owe me for.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah. All the things you owe me. You owe me for, I got you a job.

Erin Ursel:

I got you a wife.

Cliff Ursel:

Wow.

Andrew Marcus:

That’s so funny. Okay, so let’s walk through all the different stages and kind of processes of a person. And so, singleness. How can Christian singles find contentment and purpose in their season of singleness? And what biblical principles can guide them in their journey?

Cliff Ursel:

It’s funny, because we’ve done relationship talks for 15 years, and this often comes up and regularly. And I can’t help but wonder, I’m going to say this in love, people in the stage of singleness is believing a lie. And the lie is that their relationship status is directly connected to their contentedness. And it’s not. The amount of people we work with that are married, they’re equally…

Andrew Marcus:

Right.

Erin Ursel:

Unhappy.

Cliff Ursel:

Unhappy, discontent, or whatnot. And so, there’s a lie that your external circumstances will bring contentment. You do not see that in the scriptures whatsoever.

Erin Ursel:

Yeah.

Cliff Ursel:

In fact, in John 10:10, for example, Jesus, “I’ve come that you might have life.” The Greek word zoe there is the life that Jesus has is this God-authored quality of life given to us through Jesus, not through a spouse or not through a job or anything like that. And so, the call and encouragement that I would have for the singles or the same for the married is we actually find our quality of life, our contentment, our joy, our peace is never predicated on circumstances. It’s actually in Jesus giving us the life that He wants to give us.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah. Yeah, that’s good.

Erin Ursel:

Yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah.

Erin Ursel:

Yeah. And if you get that right, then marriage is a lot easier.

Andrew Marcus:

Yes. Yeah. And if you don’t, then no matter what, you’ll get married and it’ll still be…

Cliff Ursel:

Exactly.

Erin Ursel:

Yeah.

Cliff Ursel:

Exactly.

Erin Ursel:

You’re just unhappy on the other side of the same course.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah.

Cliff Ursel:

Yes.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah. Yeah. That’s a good question. I mean that’s a good answer, sorry. But it was a great question, hey.

Erin Ursel:

That was a good question.

Andrew Marcus:

You owe me.

Erin Ursel:

Crap.

Andrew Marcus:

I set you guys up for a fantastic answer. You needed a good question for a great answer.

Erin Ursel:

We did. We did.

Andrew Marcus:

No. What advice do you have for Christian singles who desire to be married but are struggling with those feelings of impatience or loneliness as they wait?

Cliff Ursel:

To you.

Erin Ursel:

One thing that does come up a lot that I’m seeing a pattern of when I meet with specifically young women is they’re looking at discipleship as separate. Maybe I’m not saying that properly, but they’re looking at their relationship with the Lord and pursuing a spouse as two different.

Andrew Marcus:

Two different things. Mm-hmm.

Erin Ursel:

And I would say, “In your discipleship process, as God is making you more like Him, as you’re surrendering, as you’re submitting, as you’re dying to yourself and as you’re being built up in Him, Cliff will say that marriage is one of the primary discipleship tools that God uses in our lives. That has been our case. So if you’re thinking, ‘My relationship over here, I’m going to have my relationship with the Lord and then I’m going to pursue a relationship over here,’ that ends very badly.”

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah.

Erin Ursel:

“So if you can just trust the Lord, be in step with the Spirit, keep on keeping on in the Spirit, and as you’re being faithful in what God has given you today, He, knowing what is right for you and good for you and He’s perfect and He’s trustworthy, the next step of your discipleship may be, for those who are called to marriage and all that, that next step will happen. If you’re separating the two, that can lead to all sorts of really bad decisions: not dating wisely, not choosing spouses wisely and things like that.” So that’s what I would say is, “Be faithful in the season that you’re in. Seek God above all things. He will give you the desires of your heart as you’re in Him and pursuing Him and loving Him above all other things.”

Andrew Marcus:

Let’s transition into dating.

Erin Ursel:

Okay.

Andrew Marcus:

Some people who are watching the program are in dating relationships, and maybe we can walk through some practical biblical principles to help them. So we’ll go through a couple of questions. What biblical principles should guide Christians in their approach to dating and forming relationships?

Erin Ursel:

You go first. I’m a slow processor.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah, that’s no problem.

Erin Ursel:

I need time to think about it. I’ll text you tomorrow all the answers that I thought I should’ve said.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah, because we’ll…

Erin Ursel:

Give me 24 hours.

Andrew Marcus:

We’ll get the answers. Go to indoubt.ca, and I’ll type it all out when she texts me.

Erin Ursel:

Yeah.

Cliff Ursel:

One of the things, it’s been really interesting in 30 years, 40 years of being a part of the dating conversation, I’ve watched the trends of thoughts and convictions and practices in dating. And right now, you’re seeing a movement where we feel, and I mean within the church.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah.

Cliff Ursel:

I don’t even just mean in society, where people are just wanting to do their own thing. And there’s the assumption that everything is great. But I know I was talking to a guy, when we’re looking at the story of David and Bathsheba. And when all the kings went to the war, David stayed back. And I said to him, “Here’s the thing. What David did there was foolish. It’s foolish behavior.” And he goes, “What does foolish behavior mean?” I said, “It’s unwise decisions and practices that can lead to sin. It’s not a sin in and of itself.”

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah.

Cliff Ursel:

And for us to actually be mindful that when we’re approaching dating to go, “I need to be mindful that I don’t engage in foolish behavior.”

Andrew Marcus:

Right.

Cliff Ursel:

Instead of going, “It’s not a sin.” And there’s liberty and all these, and we’re actually arguing for the wrong thing.

Andrew Marcus:

Wow. Yeah.

Cliff Ursel:

Rather, if you start to have a conversation of going, “I want to actually be wise so that I can preserve what God’s doing in my heart and what God can do in our relationship,” instead of fighting for liberty and for expression. I think that that’d be a fantastic way to start. I know when Levi started, I hope this is okay that I can say this.

Andrew Marcus:

He’s not watching.

Cliff Ursel:

He’s not watching.

Andrew Marcus:

He should be watching, actually. Yeah. He should have been here.

Erin Ursel:

Yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

He should be here.

Erin Ursel:

It’s his fault.

Andrew Marcus:

Because everything is someone’s fault. It’s his fault. That’s something you would say.

Cliff Ursel:

But when he was starting his relationship with Tamara, they had a conversation of, “What are the things that we value?” And so, Levi had a list and when he came back, I said, “How did it go?” He goes, “It went really well. There was a lot of alignment. And she actually added some things on the list.” I said, “Wait. She added to the list of convictions for dating?” I said, “This girl is amazing.”

Andrew Marcus:

Come on. Yeah.

Cliff Ursel:

But the idea to preserve what God is doing.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah.

Cliff Ursel:

And I think if you have someone that you’re looking to date that thinks alike, that, “Hey, we want to actually preserve what God has and we need to walk in that way,” you may have a keeper.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah. Yeah.

Erin Ursel:

And have those conversations earlier.

Cliff Ursel:

And frequently.

Erin Ursel:

Yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

Oh, and often. Yeah.

Erin Ursel:

Yes. Yeah. Because a lot of times it shifts.

Cliff Ursel:

Yeah.

Erin Ursel:

We’ve talked to couples and as they’ve been dating for a while, it’s like, “Actually, we can’t do any of this stuff. We have to back that up.” And I think the conversation is not… Typically, Christian relationships would be like, “Well, we’re just not going to have sex before marriage.”

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah, yeah.

Erin Ursel:

But if you have the boundary just at sex and you’re willing to get that close, you’re going to cross over that line.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah, yeah.

Erin Ursel:

So you have the conversations like you’re saying is, “What do we want to preserve? What’s the value behind that? It’s how we want to live, how we want to demonstrate faithfulness to God and to one another, and to our future spouse if we don’t end up being together.”

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah.

Erin Ursel:

So there’s a vision for dating that leads into a vision for marriage when we get there.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah.

Erin Ursel:

And so, our faithfulness to the Lord first and foremost and to one another as brothers and sisters in Christ. And there’s something beautifully redemptive about all of it, that we need to have conversations about that sooner and not just like, “Well, he’s a Christian and I’m a Christian.” There’s a lot of things while looking for a potential, if you’re going to get to some of those questions, too. That’s just…

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah. And even just the open dialogue about… And the wise and unwise versus right and wrong, and just kind of creating boundaries, not on the right and wrong, but the actual why and unwise.

Erin Ursel:

Yeah. Yes.

Andrew Marcus:

And then, also there’s a lot of other questions that we need to be asking like, “Oh, so future plans.” Having those conversations often. I’ve heard of people, they get married and they go, “Wait. I didn’t want kids.”

Erin Ursel:

Yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

And it’s like, “Oh, we should have probably…”

Erin Ursel:

Yes.

Andrew Marcus:

So talking about all the things all the time, because things change. I think that’s really important. So often dialogue and honest dialogue. That’s really good. Here’s another question. How can individuals be confident that they’re marrying the right person? What signs do you think there are that indicate God’s guidance in the process for them?

Erin Ursel:

The signs are a good… We often talk about people’s reputation. I think you want somebody who is known. Whether or not to you in a church, what’s their reputation like in the church? In your discernment process, there’s a lot of things that I think we could see or choose to ignore in that process. And so, are you going to talk about some of this stuff?

Cliff Ursel:

No, you can keep going.

Erin Ursel:

Well, I’m trying to keep it… Some of the things that we’ve been dealing with with people, settling or overreaching, like, “I know I could do way better” or “I don’t think there’s anybody else for me.” And it’s like, “Well, that’s not even the discernment grid we should be using.”

Cliff Ursel:

Right. Yeah.

Erin Ursel:

It’s, “What do you know about this person? What are people saying about these people?” I don’t mean in the gossip or slander way, but, “How are they serving? What is their reputation around the church and with people?”

Cliff Ursel:

Yeah. I remember I had a young couple come and talk to me about that, and she was saying, “Well, my dad doesn’t want us to get married. We’re dating.” I said, “Why?” And she had this list of character defects and sin practices. And it was interesting, because she actually had a bit of the Messiah complex and a little bit of a rebellious going, “I think I can save him. I think I can turn this.”

And the mistake that we’re making is in our sin to the Lord, we’re actually showing our untrustworthiness to our potential spouse.

Erin Ursel:

Right.

Cliff Ursel:

And what I said to them, I said, “The problem is right now, you’re both in agreement with your sin and rebellion against God. But you’ve shown each other that you’re willing to be rebellious to the Lord when it suits your desires.”

Erin Ursel:

Right.

Cliff Ursel:

“But what about the day when your desire to sin is not in line with your spouse? Trust is already broken, that you’ve said, ‘I’ll break God’s best for me when it’s convenient.’ But when you’re not aligned in your rebellion, you’ve got a problem and you’re showing trustworthiness or untrustworthiness.” And sadly, they got married. And no surprise, their marriage didn’t last. And I’m like, “The warning signs were there and they just didn’t listen to them.”

Andrew Marcus:

I am seeing a lot of young people separating that are married.

Erin Ursel:

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Cliff Ursel:

Yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

The last couple of years has been crazy.

Cliff Ursel:

Yeah.

Erin Ursel:

Yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

So many people. Why do you think that’s happening? Specifically with the young adult generation, I feel like there’s a lot of young adults that I know personally. Why do you think that… Obviously, there’s a lot of reasons, but it is something that has grown.

Erin Ursel:

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Marcus:

I don’t know if you’ve noticed that in marriage counseling or…

Erin Ursel:

Yeah.

Cliff Ursel:

Oh, yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah. Okay.

Cliff Ursel:

And it’s not young, actually.

Erin Ursel:

No.

Cliff Ursel:

It’s older as well.

Erin Ursel:

As well.

Andrew Marcus:

Oh, it is? Yeah.

Cliff Ursel:

It’s an epidemic regardless of your age.

Andrew Marcus:

Okay. Yeah. Okay.

Erin Ursel:

And my simple answer would be, I believe the majority of Christians do not have a true biblical understanding of what the purpose of marriage actually is. And that is leading to all sorts… When this spouse doesn’t do or say or isn’t, the relationship isn’t producing what we hoped for. Not in any way related to what God’s purpose of marriage is, but, “You’re no longer meeting my needs anymore. I deserve to be happy.” I would say that.

And then, also a lot of the culture is speaking to our theology more than the Bible is now. And it’s a version of spirituality, but it’s out of context from what Scripture is actually saying. And so, we are now holding to spiritual or cultural theology or however you want to word it. And we’re almost like living by that standard as opposed to going back to what God says the purpose of marriage is. And if we could have a biblical vision for marriage, oh my goodness, probably 90% of that garbage would be gone. And now we’re like, “Okay, let’s lean into this and let’s build something that God has called us to do together.”

Andrew Marcus:

It’s amazing. So we’re talking about dating and then engagement. But a great question to ask, because this will help people who are dating and engaged, is you said, “Okay. Well, if we don’t have the proper biblical understanding of what is marriage.”

Erin Ursel:

Yeah. Yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

Walk us through. What is the biblical understanding of marriage?

Erin Ursel:

Well, I’ll quote Tim Keller in this moment because it’s a great vision. And then, you’ll have some other smart stuff to say. I’m just the, I don’t know.

Cliff Ursel:

Smart Alex stuff.

Erin Ursel:

Right. Yeah. So my favorite quote from Tim Keller, from The Meaning of Marriage, which I highly recommend that book. In fact, while you’re dating, read that book. While you’re engaged, read that book. While you’re married, read that book. Just because you’re not in a relationship doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be building your understanding of a biblical theology for marriage.

But Tim Keller writes, “Within this Christian vision of marriage, here’s what it means to fall in love. It’s to look at another person and say, ‘I see what God is doing in you, and I want to be part of that. I want to partner with the work that God is doing in you.’ And then, when we get to heaven and we stand before the Lord, I will say, ‘Look at you. I always knew what you were capable of. I see it now.'”

Andrew Marcus:

Wow.

Erin Ursel:

And for me, it’s very emotional for me because I didn’t have that. So I was always looking for Cliff to be something that only Jesus could be. And when he failed me, I gave myself permission to act out in whatever sinful ways I thought. Now, I didn’t call it sinful. I’m like, “I’m just doing, I’m having the life.”

Cliff Ursel:

Call it justified.

Erin Ursel:

Yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah, yeah.

Erin Ursel:

It’s justify, rationalize, minimize, whatever, in order to have and do the things that I thought. And we’re in ministry. I married a pastor. So the sinfulness of my heart was fully demonstrated when I got married. Those things were always there, they were just dormant. And then, as soon as now I have accountability in a way that I never had before. Oh, yeah. It just was terrible. So when I read that this idea that, “Oh, Cliff’s role was never to make me happy. And my role is to actually partner with the work that God is doing in his life.”

Andrew Marcus:

Wow.

Erin Ursel:

That’s what I lean into and that’s what I lean into now.

Cliff Ursel:

So in Genesis2:24, it’s very well-known. “Therefore, a man will leave his father and mother and hold fast, and they shall become one flesh.” So what we’re reading there is something was discovered earlier in the text. Whatever that discovery was, that’s why you get married. So well, what is it? So you go further up in Genesis 2:23. And Adam said when he saw Eve, “At last. This is bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh. She shall be called woman because she was taken out of a man. And therefore, man will leave…”

We still don’t know exactly, but Adam just discovered something. Whatever he discovered, that was a reason to enter into a covenant relationship. The Lord God said, “It’s not good that a man should be alone. I will make a helper fit for him.”

And this is where the people in singleness get it wrong. They’re like, “I’m lonely and I want to be married.” And I cite this verse. But I don’t think the verse has to do with loneliness. It actually is something more functional if you read it. Adam had this call on his life to subdue the earth. And there was no helper fit for him. The word helper in the Hebrew is the word ezer. It’s a loaded word. Please don’t think it’s like a second rate tier that just…

Erin Ursel:

Yeah, not lesser.

Cliff Ursel:

But the Lord uses the word ezer for himself. And then, when God created Eve and showed Eve to Adam, he goes, “At last.” It was, “You are the person to help with the God-given call on my life that I can’t do on my own. We can do together.”

Andrew Marcus:

Wow. Such good wisdom for people who are dating.

Cliff Ursel:

Yeah.

Andrew Marcus:

Now they have an understanding, “Okay, what is marriage?”

Cliff Ursel:

Yeah.

Erin Ursel:

Yeah. Right.

Andrew Marcus:

“Why am I even dating to begin with?”

Cliff Ursel:

Yeah.

Erin Ursel:

Yep.

Andrew Marcus:

Well, Cliff and Erin, thank you so much for joining us on today’s program.

Cliff Ursel:

Thanks for having us.

Erin Ursel:

Thank you.

Andrew Marcus:

Hey, thanks so much for joining us today. For more great content, check out THE INDOUBT SHOW on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Music, or wherever you stream your podcasts. We hope you enjoyed it today. Feel free to check out Indoubt.ca. We have some great resources available to you. Have an awesome day.

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