Ep. 57: No Such Thing as an “Excusable” Sin w/ Author Jen Oshman

Andrew Marcus:

Hey, this is Andrew Marcus. Welcome to THE INDOUBT SHOW. We got a great program today. We have Jen Oshman, and she’s going to be talking today about respectable sins. Before we dive into the conversation, I want to let you know we have a free resource for the month of March. It’s called Quiet Spaces for Passion Week, an eight-day devotional leading up to Easter. Go to indoubt.ca And get yourself a free copy. But we’re talking about respectable sins today. What does that even mean?

Well, we’re talking about the sins that we easily just put aside or brush off, like little white lies and gossiping and maybe overworking or grumbling not being grateful. And so very important topic. We hope you tune in and enjoy the program.

All right. Well, we have Jen Oshman all the way in Denver, Colorado. Jen, how are you doing?

Jen Oshman:

I’m great today. Thanks for having me.

Andrew Marcus:

Me. Awesome. I’m glad your technology’s working. I know we were having internet issues yesterday.

Jen Oshman:

It was the worst. It was like I was in the dark ages. I had no internet for three days.

Andrew Marcus:

Three days?

Jen Oshman:

It was terrible.

Andrew Marcus:

Oh, I didn’t know it was three days.

Jen Oshman:

I know the phone was a hotspot for a long time.

Andrew Marcus:

Wow, that’s amazing. Yeah. You know what? When technology works, it’s amazing. And when it doesn’t, it’s like, what do I do with my life? So I’m glad it’s working, and I’m glad we’re here today. We’re going to talk about something really awesome today. Well, not awesome actually. It’s terrible technically, but it’s an awesome conversation to have to be aware of for people and for those who are listening, thinking, “What’s going on?” We’re talking about sin today, so it’s not awesome. It’s awful. And usually we have people on the show who are experts in their fields. And so are you an expert singer?

Jen Oshman:

Amazing. I actually am. Yeah, going strong. I’m 45 years of sinning well, so.

Andrew Marcus:

Oh man, that’s just … Okay, so we have an expert sinner. I as well am an expert sinner, and you who are watching right now or listening in audio world, guess what, you’re an expert as well. But before we dive into the topic, tell our listeners and our viewers a little bit about who you are, your ministry life. And you’ve written some books too, so maybe tell us a little bit about your journey as an author.

Jen Oshman:

Yeah, sure. So quick story is that my husband and I are about to celebrate 25 years of marriage.

Andrew Marcus:

Come on.

Jen Oshman:

We married young, went to seminary and went straight to the mission field with a newborn baby, adopted another, birthed two more. We lived overseas for 15 years in Japan and the Czech Republic-

Andrew Marcus:

Wow.

Jen Oshman:

As church planters. And then we were called off the mission field prematurely according to our human plans, to care for my dad, who eight years ago was dying from Alzheimer’s and dementia. So we moved back to Colorado unexpectedly and abruptly to care for him and the Lord in his providence and mercy, he planted a church through our family in our living room seven years ago.

Andrew Marcus:

Wow.

Jen Oshman:

Next weekend is our birthday as a church.

Andrew Marcus:

Wow.

Jen Oshman:

We just opened our home and started having people over for bible study and dinner, and it grew and grew and became a church, and now it’s a thriving, wonderful gift of the Lord. And so yeah, seven-year-old church plant here in Colorado. And in the eight years of living back in the US, I’ve written three books. Another children’s book is going to come out this May. And I just love to especially look at the scriptures and how they impact our lives, current events and cultural trends and what the word of God has to say about that. So that’s what the books tend to be about.

Andrew Marcus:

That’s amazing. And you have a podcast as well. I know you’re on a break right now, but tell us a little bit about that.

Jen Oshman:

Yeah, so the podcast is called All Things, and I do discuss current events and trends through a Christian lens, and I love it. It’s five years old, 150 episodes that I’ve just done on my own.

Andrew Marcus:

Wow. Praise God.

Jen Oshman:

And yeah, it’s been sweet. So actually no, 140. I miscounted. 140. So yeah, I would like to keep going. It’s interesting. I wonder if you feel this when you talk about weighty things like politics and race and ethnicity and life issues, abortion, euthanasia. I mean, that’s what I focus on is what’s going on in the world politically and culturally. Those are such weighty topics that I’m kind of tired after five years, I feel weighed down by it. And so just having to walk in my limitations as a human who can only do so much at the moment, I’ve laid that load down. I hope to pick it back up sometime this year, but right now I just don’t feel capable of carrying it with the other things. And so just taking a break from that at the moment. But it’s a passion of mine, so I hope that the Lord fuels me up and I can get back into it if that’s his will.

Andrew Marcus:

Praise God. Well, you’ve written an article on this recently and I was reading it. I’m like, “Man, this is so important” because I feel like a lot of people categorize and there’s the respectable sins as you’ve been writing about and some of the other ones that, oh, that’s not … I don’t want to dabble with that. And so maybe before we even dive into sin. You mentioned respectable sins. Can you maybe define what that means?

Jen Oshman:

Yeah, absolutely. So respectable sins is actually borrowed from the title of a book written by Jerry Bridges decades ago at this point. And basically he just calls Christians to examine the sins that we sort of keep with us that aren’t the more obvious awful sins of the world that we categorize. So he wrote this decades ago, but I think it’s really prophetic for this moment as well. But it’s easy for us as believers to look at the world and say, okay, clearly, abortion is sin. Clearly, homosexuality or polyamory. Those are obvious sins that we say we would never participate in. Murder, lying, stealing, those things that feel blatant to us while at the same time, we allow sins that are more hidden or more acceptable or somehow more culturally appropriate in our Christian context, we allow those to fester and grow in the dark rather than calling them what they are, and that is sin.

And so I really appreciate the tone of his book. He really just owns it himself and just says, Hey, church, we can’t say that we are sinless. We are nursing these things in our own hearts as well, and they’re respectable because we accept them, but they are actually horrific in the eyes of our holy God.

Andrew Marcus:

And do you feel, especially even doing your podcast All Things and seeing what’s happening in the world and getting a biblical perspective, do you feel like the respectable sins are brought … It’s getting wider. We’re accepting and having more respectable things. We talk about homosexuality or different things. Some people will say, actually, I was talking to a guy, he’s like, “Oh, the Bible was wrong. That’s not a sin.” Do you feel like culture is stretching the boundaries and maybe trying to put more things in the respectable sins category?

Jen Oshman:

I think that culture is definitely having an impact on the church. I think that the pressure outside of the church is very heavy to fall in line with cultural norms, to not question that which culture celebrates. The pressure is real. I mean, you can lose a job over it. You can certainly lose family members over it and friendships, you can lose respect in your society. So while we are still, I would say I would argue far from being persecuted here in the United States, it’s certainly very uncomfortable and you lose status or friendships or comfort for sure if you take a biblical stance on these things. So I think the pressure from the world on the church is heavy. And I think in the church, we’re hesitant to talk about them because these conversations should be always nuanced and filled with grace and kindness and compassion.

And because in one breath, you need to talk about the brother or sister. So if we use homosexuality as an example, someone who is genuinely struggling and striving for holiness and wants the church to come alongside, that’s a conversation that should be filled with grace and accountability and mercy and compassion. But we tend to lump that in with like, oh, can you believe it? Can you believe this particular legislation or whatever. And we speak about it really callously and flippantly and unkindly. So I think pastors and church leaders and just Christians in general hesitate and even refuse to have these conversations.

So then we become really vulnerable to absorbing the discipleship of the world because the church isn’t discipling us. So I think that’s what we’re feeling, why it feels more like there’s more respectable sins is because culture is talking and maybe inside the church we’re not because we’re afraid and the world is therefore discipling us instead of the church.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah, that’s a good word. And I wonder with sin, are there categories of sin or is sin sins? Some people say, oh, when we’re talking about the respect of sins like gossip or things that are personal to us, that it’s not public and it’s not like a murder or anything that seems more intense. Are there categories of sin or does God look at sin as just sin?

Jen Oshman:

Yeah. Well, I think that’s really good question and something that comes up a lot either in my writing or even just in my own personal ministry context in person. There’s kind of two truths here, and one is that all sin separates us from a holy God. Every sin. Just the whitest lie or something that seems so silly. Yet if it is outside the pale of holiness, absolutely, it separates us from our holy and perfect God. And payment, sacrifice must be made if we are to be reconciled to our God for what we would view as the simplest sin.

So yes, all sins separates us from God. And yet there is scriptural precedence that shows us that sins are different. Jesus says, “Woe to you, to certain cities. It will be worse for you on the day of judgment because of what you have done.” And so there are consequences and ramifications and even levels of judgment for different types of sin, a lie that … I grew up really prone to white lying. I guess that’s why I keep saying it. White lying was kind of a habit for me growing up, and it was something I brought into my marriage and my husband was like, “What are you doing?” And it was very humbling because I was like, “Oh, that’s lying. You’re right.” But a white lie is not the same as a school shooting that takes out a dozen children. They’re not the same. And yet they do both separate us from a holy God.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah, it’s the consequence as well. So you’re talking about, yeah, there is even judgment and there are different categories, even though all sin is sin, but the consequences are huge. If I lust after my neighbor’s car, okay, that’s a sin. If I break into his house and take the keys, okay, it’s sin, but the consequence now break and enter. If I break in, kill him, take the keys, and then okay, now there’s murder and break and enter and lusting. So it’s like the ramifications of the murder and the break-in sin is sin, but the consequence is very different. Speaking to young adults, young adult Christians, how do you perceive the challenge of recognizing and addressing respectable sins in your personal life and within Christian community? How do we help them navigate that and even acknowledge and recognize it?

Jen Oshman:

Yeah, I mean, it’s hard. I think in a perfect world, we would all be going to churches that are eager to foster really in-depth community and have a habit and culture and atmosphere of confession and accountability. But if that’s not the case at your church, I think that it really can just one believer to feel that conviction, to approach another believer or friend and say, Hey, can we start meeting? Can we start talking about this? Can we start sharing this?

And just a little pro-tip from walking with Jesus for many years. It’s usually good to have three of you in those conversations rather than two of you, because we’re so good at justifying our respectable sins that when you have one accountability partner, it’s really easy to be like, oh, I get it. That’s okay. But when there’s three of you, you’re like, oh man, she said that, we better help her get to the root of that. That’s sort of a tangent, but I think the word of God, the people of God and the spirit of God, those are three pillars that I’m constantly talking about.

If the word has chastened you, if the spirit has poked you and said, Hey, this is outside of my will, then you’ve got to bring it to the people of God and speak it out loud and ask your brothers and sisters to come alongside you and help you. So I think it’s really pursuing the word, the spirit and brothers and sisters to fight sin in our lives. I belong to what we call in our church, a core group, and I’m actually meeting with my core group today. It’s three of us women. We meet for an hour and a half every single week, and we confess our sins to each other.

Andrew Marcus:

Wow.

Jen Oshman:

We ask each other where are we doing ministry. What are we reading in the word and how is it changing us? How can I pray for you? How can I exhort you? And that hour and a half did not come naturally. It’s something that we had to really intentionally invest in and say, this is not a negotiable, but the fruit that comes from that is irreplaceable. When I can just confess to these women what’s going on and they can exhort me, remind me of what’s true, remind me of God’s grace. We can feel his forgiveness afresh every week. And so what I would say to every listener is, I know you’re busy. I know you’re already serving in church and hosting your gospel community and doing the things, and that’s awesome, but do you have a couple people where you can be really real with and they’re going to help you kill the sin that persists in your life.

Andrew Marcus:

That’s so good. And what would you say to a young adult who doesn’t read their bible much or think that there’s any … it’s old, it’s outdated, or someone who doesn’t attend a church or someone who doesn’t rely on the spirit, what advice or maybe even a testimony of your own life, could you share with them?

Jen Oshman:

So I did not grow up in a Christian home. Actually, neither did my husband. We both surrendered fully to the Lord in our college years.

Andrew Marcus:

Wow, okay.

Jen Oshman:

And so I can say that my faith came from desperation and from the Lord meeting me on the floor, literally on the floor of my dorm room as a college freshman. I was somebody who really put my hope and my trust in my own abilities. And I was a high achiever, somebody who got good grades, president of the club, captain of the team, just really, really driven and was able to ride on my own abilities until I got to college when things got a lot harder and the bar was a lot higher, and the Lord revealed to me, you are finite, in fact, really, really finite. In fact, you’re failing at all of these categories that you used to put your hope and your identity in.

And so I think all of us have those moments where we come to the end of ourselves, I don’t know, a human being out there, an adult out there who hasn’t experienced coming to the end of him or herself and going, this is not what I thought it would be. Or I can’t reach the top of the ladder, or I reached the top of the ladder and it’s not as satisfying as I thought it would be. And so my encouragement to that listener who maybe is averse to faith or the church or to God or to his word, is that when you come to the end of yourself, when you’re on the floor of your apartment or your dorm, wherever you are, when you have that literal or figurative feeling of like, I can no longer go on, or this is not satisfying, this is actually hollow and empty and void, that is your creator prompting you saying, there is more.

You think there’s more to life. Yeah, there is more. I made you for more. I actually made you to be in a relationship with me. And not only am I your maker, but if you would surrender, I will be your savior. And you don’t know what that tastes like until you taste of it. You don’t know the sweet relief and comfort and deep joy that comes with that until you surrender. And so if you feel that prompting, if you feel that end of your rope on the floor moment, no, that’s your creator inviting you to see what else is out there to find him, to seek him and find him

Andrew Marcus:

So beautiful. And the fact that it’s in a moment of hardship and desperation and struggle and pain and suffering, where it’s actually the Lord who’s saying, Hey, I’m here. Look to me. I always remember a quote that always goes all over the internet with Jim Carrey saying, “I wish people had all the things in the world and all the money in the world to realize that all of it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t even make you happy.” And it’s just this realization that we can try, we try to achieve, we try to do this and climb the ladders and corporate ladders and all these different things, and it’s just not going to do it. It’s only God. And so we see in young adults today, the rise of anxiety, the rise of worry and fear and depression and suicide, and I want to talk about that a little bit because in the area of respectable sin, would you put anxiety and worry in that category?

Jen Oshman:

Yeah, that is such a hard question that I feel like I can’t give a black and white answer to-

Andrew Marcus:

Totally.

Jen Oshman:

Because I do have brothers and sisters very close to me who are oftentimes really handicapped by anxiety, and I know their spiritual walk, and it’s one of depth. They have strong spiritual disciplines. They love the Lord, they abide in Him, and yet anxiety functions kind of like the thorn in the flesh that maybe is comparable to what the Apostle Paul was dealing with, something that they’ve begged the Lord to take away and it seems to persist. So there is for sure a category of anxiety and depression that I think is not sin, that is the result of living in a fallen world and being fallen creatures and something that the Lord might permit in our lives, that we might be required to abide deeply and to rest deeply and to slow down.

And yet, I think there also is a category of anxiety that is because we live in the age of self, we live in the age of do it yourself, be self-sufficient, self-identify. Whoever you want to be, you can be her or him, and then it’s just on you to make it happen. You try hard, you muscle up, you get your coffee, you get your positive self-talk and get it done. That is burning us out, especially young adults. I mean, that is what my whole book, my first book is called Enough About Me. That’s exactly what I wrote it about is the burnout of this age because we have relied on ourselves.

But the truth is, the Lord made us to be in relationship with him, and we will not thrive until that happens, until we are walking with him. So yeah, I do think anxiety can be a sin and one has to just really wrestle with that. Am I relying on myself, dependent on myself, feeling like it’s all on me and that’s why I’m anxious, or have I surrendered and said like the prophet Habakkuk, even if the trees don’t bear fruit, even if the cows don’t produce milk, even if I am impoverished or lose my loved one or lose my career, even if yet you are the God of my salvation and therefore I will worship you. We have to come to that point, I think, in our lives, but also come to that point probably multiple times a day where we go, I’m handing this over to you, Lord.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah. It reminds me of the passage in Corinthians where it’s like, “Take your thought. Every thought captive, bring it to the obedience of Christ.” It’s not like I take that one worry captive and bring it and then I’m done. I might have to bring that thought captive a thousand times an hour, and that’s okay.

Jen Oshman:

Totally.

Andrew Marcus:

I struggled with anxiety a couple years ago and had 10 months of just the darkest season of my life. I abided and I stayed close by the grace of God, and he kept me close, and it was just a season that was very, very hard for me. So I understand the, it’s two answers, kind of like the cat. It is all sin, sin. It’s like there’s kind of two answers. It’s not just a simple one answer. And so I get that fully maybe the understanding of worry, so not necessarily anxiety, but having worries and fears, would you classify worry? I know you talk about worry and you highlight that in the article that I read. Tell us about worry.

Jen Oshman:

Yeah, I mean, I think if we’re defining, it’s so important right now to define our terms in every conversation, I feel like.

Andrew Marcus:

Totally.

Jen Oshman:

Yeah, if we’re defining worry, and I think you could absolutely define worry as a sense of it’s on me. What am I going to do? I’m hand ringing … I’m white knuckling this, I’ve got to make it happen. If you are self-dependent, then yeah, that is sin. Also, if you insist on a specific outcome and feel like everything is terrible and the sky is falling, if that outcome doesn’t come to pass, then that is also sin. We have to be so firmly rooted in Christ and our hands, wide open palms toward him going, your will be done. That’s what we see him do in the garden of Gethsemane, right before he goes to the cross, “Father, may this cup be taken from me.” We can pray, Lord, could it be this way? I prefer this path, but ultimately we have to say, and yet, Lord, your will be done. I surrender to you. Your way is the best.

And coming to that moment is just incredibly freeing. I mean, the peace that comes with that of like, okay, come what may I belong to Jesus who promised never to leave me or forsake me, man, living worry-free really is for our good, so let’s surrender. It’s way better. And I’m preaching that to myself right now.

Andrew Marcus:

Totally. And I’m preaching it to myself too, but the realization of God is in control, he’s present, he’s with us ministry and your walk with the Lord should be a worry-free life. But I mean, we’re also human and we also have our own struggles. And so it’s just this journey and God understands, and he’s so gracious and so kind, and so loving.

Jen Oshman:

So gracious.

Andrew Marcus:

Let’s walk through some of the respectable sins that maybe some people think, “Oh, I didn’t even realize that’s a big deal,” but gossip and slander would be other respectable sins. And maybe let’s walk through that because even gossip could be wrapped up in a nice little Christian package that looks innocent, but the motive and the intent, like, oh, let’s pray for so-and-so because I heard that they’re struggling with X, Y, and Z. So let’s walk through a little bit about slander and gossip.

Jen Oshman:

Yeah. Can we not actually?

Andrew Marcus:

Okay, moving on. So let’s talk about grumbling. No, I’m just kidding.

Jen Oshman:

Right. Oh, that’s so uncomfortable.

Andrew Marcus:

It is.

Jen Oshman:

It’s just the worst because, and the article was written for ministry leaders-

Andrew Marcus:

Yes.

Jen Oshman:

But it’s for everybody.It’s for everybody.

Andrew Marcus:

It’s for everybody for sure.

Jen Oshman:

But there is an element when you’re leading in ministry where maybe the elders or the people over women’s ministry need to go to the elders or whatever. There comes times where you have to say, Hey, this is going on and we need to address it. Maybe somebody is doing something that they know as a member of the church is not acceptable. So there comes times where you have to be like, “Are you handling this? Do you know this person well enough to go have this conversation? Or am I the one who has to have this?” So information has to be shared amongst church leaders.

But what I point out in the article is that when you’re having those conversations, they are undoubtedly so stressful because you are a leader who loves this person, and either your heart is broken for them or you’re mad or you’re fed up, or you’re like, “How in the world could this have happened?” So you’re feeling stressed. You are probably engaged in worry and feeling like it’s all on us to figure this out for this particular community person.

And it’s so easy in that moment, speaking from my own personal experience, to just slide into speaking about that brother or sister who’s your precious sibling in the Lord in a way that’s just flippant and kind of gross, where you’re just like, can you even believe that? I can’t even believe. And you know, okay, actually that’s not true. I think you can know when you cross the line, sometimes it’s so satisfying in the moment to cross the line that you’re not even allowing the spirit to say, Hey, you’ve crossed the line. And then it takes maybe five minutes after the conversation, five days, five months, five years after the conversation where you’re like, “Dang, that was wrong of me.”

So I think knowing that we have to be on our guard, the devil prowls and is ready to take you out, and we see division so much in the church right now. I mean, he literally has a foothold in some of our communities where we are against each other and disunified and quick to think the worst of one another and things like that. So to me, this sin can be so easy and sneaky.

Andrew Marcus:

So sneaky.

Jen Oshman:

And we just have to be on our guard. And just as if Christ was looking me in the eye while I’m speaking to that other person, what would I say to Jesus right then? I can guarantee you I wouldn’t be talking smack about his children.

Andrew Marcus:

Yep.

Jen Oshman:

Yeah, it really helps me to think about … So I’m a mom, I have four daughters. It really helps me to think about how would I want somebody to talk about my own children and how if I know that somebody has said something flippant or coarse or unkind or just hasn’t given my kid the benefit of the doubt, it makes me so upset. I am immediately like, “Well, you don’t know the context. You don’t know what she’s going through. You don’t know. You saw this one thing, and maybe it was indeed sin and we should address it, but also you don’t know the whole story and you should not talk about my kid like that.” And so when I think about how the father must feel, how I talk about his children sometimes, man, that for me, that is a very powerful conviction.

Andrew Marcus:

Wow. That’s such a good way of looking at it, and that’s so helpful. Praise God. Jen Oshman, thank you so much for your time today.

Jen Oshman:

It’s a pleasure.

Andrew Marcus:

And again, we’ll leave resources for everyone on our website so you can go and find her and find her books and her podcast, and we’re just grateful for your time. Thank you so much for your wisdom today.

Jen Oshman:

Absolutely. Thank you so much. This has been sweet.

Andrew Marcus:

Hey, thanks so much for joining us today. For more great content, check out THE INDOUBT SHOW on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Music, or wherever you stream your podcast. We hope you enjoyed it today. Feel free to check out indoubt.ca. We have some great resources available to you. Have an awesome day.

Hey, audio world for the month of March, we have a free resource for you. That’s right, absolutely free. You can go to indoubt.ca and get this book. It’s called Quiet Spaces for Passion Week. What is it? It’s an eight-day devotional leading up to Easter. Easter is such a beautiful time to remember, reflect, and celebrate that Jesus died and He rose from the grave, conquering sin and death. And so we have this free booklet for you. You can go to indoubt.ca or you can call the office at +1-800-663-2425 to get your copy today. God bless you.