Ep. 72: World Religions Unraveled: Sikhism w/ Isaac Paul

Andrew Marcus:

Hey, this is Andrew Marcus. Welcome to THE INDOUBT SHOW. We got a fantastic program today. We’re with Isaac Paul, talking about Sikhism, as we continue a series that we’re doing on World Religions Unraveled. Just want to remind you, we do have our fiscal year-end this month. If you want to give, that would be such a blessing.

We’re doing a dollar-for-dollar match campaign and partnership with Back to the Bible Canada and Laugh Again, and we would love your support. It’s a great time to give. Thank you so much for that. God bless you. Enjoy today’s program. All right, we have Isaac Paul with us today. How are you doing, man?

Isaac Paul:

Great. It’s good to be here.

Andrew Marcus:

We have a great conversation today. We’re talking about Sikhism, and lots of things to dive into. We have Isaac Paul with us, and maybe before we even start, tell us a little bit about the history, because you were saying before we pressed record, that it was one of the newest religions. Maybe walk through timing and kind of their main core values, what they mainly believe in that religion.

Isaac Paul:

Sure, yeah. Well, the thing with Sikhism firstly is-

Andrew Marcus:

Okay, are we saying it wrong?

Isaac Paul:

Yeah, exactly what I was about to say.

Andrew Marcus:

Oh, Chris. You were right.

Chris:

Oh, there we go. Maybe, depending on…

Andrew Marcus:

Well, let’s see. Yeah, depending on how you say it. He told me today that there was-

Chris:

We just got corrected. We just got corrected.

Andrew Marcus:

Correct us below.

Isaac Paul:

Unfortunately, I’m a linguist for this conversation.

Andrew Marcus:

Perfect.

Isaac Paul:

What Sikhs will usually call Sikhism is Sikhi.

Andrew Marcus:

Sikhi. Oh.

Isaac Paul:

Which is the Punjabi way of saying Sikhism. When you put an ism on it, Sikhs are often very kind of sensitive, as we’ll get into of two words, kind of westernizing their faith. I found it helpful to sometimes just refer to it as Sikhi.

Andrew Marcus:

Sikhi, you saw, we heard that it was just-

Chris:

Yeah, we had someone on before saying “sick” as opposed to Sikh.

Isaac Paul:

That is how they would say, yeah, they would say “sick.”

Chris:

“Sick.”

Isaac Paul:

Here’s the thing, we’re speaking English here, and in English, we have another word that sounds like Sikh, which is sick.

Andrew Marcus:

Okay.

Isaac Paul:

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say Sikh, you know what I’m saying? Yeah, if you’re being technical, but then also when we speak, we don’t say Mexico when we’re saying Mexico in English.

Andrew Marcus:

Well, Brian does.

Brian Pue:

Hey.

Andrew Marcus:

Hey. Okay. Okay, so it’s Sikhi.

Isaac Paul:

Yeah. I think this kind of gets into a lot of what we’re going to end up talking about today is the difference between Western philosophies and religions and Eastern philosophies and religions. Yeah, like we said, let’s dive into that bit of history. Sikhi kind of begins in the 1400s with a man named Guru Nanak. If you live in the lower mainland, you’ve seen the yogurt, Nanak Yogurt, you’ve seen the hospital at ceremonial, Guru Nanak Emergency Room, it’s everywhere. That’s because he was the founder of Sikhism.

There’s a lot of controversy about exactly who he was leading up to this, but most people agree that he was a Hindu originally from what is known as the Bhakti movement. This movement, it’s an interesting movement because Hinduism is one of the oldest religions in the world, probably the oldest. It’s tied with Judaism or close, we don’t really know. To be honest, even calling Hinduism a religion is already kind of a Western perspective on it.

Andrew Marcus:

Interesting.

Isaac Paul:

Really what it is, it’s a series of Vedic, which the Vedic Texts are the holy text of Hinduism that were developed over thousands of years. It’s a series of Vedic traditions that actually have quite a bit of variation and difference in different parts of India. Westerners came and looked and said, “Oh, this is all one thing,” but that’s not really what’s going on. For the sake of the conversation, we’ll call it Hinduism.

This movement, this Bhakti movement in Hinduism, is sometimes referred to as kind of the Reformation of Hinduism. This was happening in the medieval times, where the old system of Hinduism that had been around for thousands of years, which was very oriented on rituals, and practice, and the caste system, where a lot of these Hindu mystics started saying, “Hey, guys, really, this religion should not be about these external things. It should be about our internal experience of knowing God, and loving God, and experiencing God, experiencing the divine.”

That’s kind of what this Bhakti movement was. It was a move away from the formalism and traditionalism of kind of Hindu practice and saying, “Let’s focus more on our experience about knowing God,” however you want to perceive that. Guru Nanak was coming, he was someone who was from that tradition. This really shows when we look at what Sikhism is, and what they believe, and what their priorities are. Guru Nanak lived in what is now the area of Punjab, but he traveled around India a lot.

He started teaching this teaching of oneness and oneness. In Punjabi, the fundamental kind of concept within Sikhi is it’s called Ik Onkar. Ik is Punjabi for one, and Onkar is a controversial one, but for the sake, we’ll just say, we’ll call it unity or fundamental reality.

Andrew Marcus:

Okay.

Isaac Paul:

Some people would call it God. Ik Onkar means there’s one God or there’s one fundamental reality type thing. That’s kind of the fundamental basis for what Guru Nanak was teaching. What happened was over the course of this, we’re talking here now, this is the 1400s, and then after Guru Nanak, he appointed a successor to this teaching that he was doing. Like we mentioned before in the previous podcast, when you’re talking about the very origins of religious belief systems, it’s hard to pinpoint exactly where they become separate. This is an example of that, again.

Where exactly does it break off? It’s hard to say exactly, but there was a series of gurus who came after Guru Nanak, each one kind of saying the next guys, naming, appointing a successor. This was all in the Punjab region of India. After about four or five gurus, the fifth guru, he basically realized, “Okay, this is something that we need to start kind of codifying a bit more.” Guru Nanak had writings, and he had written down a lot of, basically, they’re called shabads, or songs, kind of similar to Psalms that we would have in the Bible, just about the divine, about oneness, just worshiping God, kind of that idea.

It’s not narrative, it’s not theology per se, but it’s in the form of song. He’d written down a lot of these, and the gurus that came after him had written many of these. They started compiling these into what was at that time known as the Adi Granth. Granth is Punjabi word for text, so the text, this holy text, which later became to be known as the Guru Granth Sahib. If you break that down, Guru means Guru, which is, we’ll get into the name Guru in a bit, because that’s really important, but for now we are familiar, Guru is teacher type thing. Granth is text, and then Sahib is like, sir, or it’s like a honorific term.

The Guru Granth Sahib is the holy text that Sikhs use. It was, the writings in it come from Guru Nanak originally, as well as the gurus that came along with him. Then after, what was happening politically while this was going on, this kind of religious revolution that was focusing on oneness, and one God, and experiencing God and knowing God, is at the same time that Guru Nanak was alive, the Mughal Empire began. Babur became the first Mughal Empire emperor in Delhi.

What happened was that the early Sikh community was kind of pinned in between the Hindus, who were still the majority in this region, and the Muslims. What ended up happening is this really had a lot of impact and influence on Sikhi. Now, again, this as if you are talking to a Sikh, they would say, “No, Sikhi is the eternal truth that’s been around forever,” but if you’re not a Sikh, if you’re a Christian, you’re saying, “Well, maybe some of these influences have influenced them.”

That’s what makes Sikhi unique is that it incorporates elements of Hinduism, and it also has influence from Islam as well in it. For example, the Guru Granth Sahib has writings from the Gurus. It also has writings from Hindu mystics, and it has two authors who were actually Sufi Muslims who wrote in the Guru Granth Sahib. Although now, modern scholars have started questioning whether those guys are really Muslims. Anyway, for lack of… So far, they seem to be. You can see already at the beginning, it’s very focused on all inclusivity, and oneness, and one path. There may be different paths, but we’re all kind of journeying together.

Then what happened? The sixth Guru, Guru Hargobind, he started creating a militia of Sikhs around him and for the Sikh community, because again, this is happening at the time of the Mughals. The Mughals were starting to persecute the Sikhs they were raising, they just were different, they were raising problems. Some of the Sikh gurus actually were killed by the Mughals. Some of their children were murdered by the Mughals, and they were faced a lot of persecution, a lot of famous Sikh people who weren’t gurus, aside from that, were also killed by the Mughals.

In response to that, the Sikhs created their own militia, their own army, had started incorporating this very important political and military element. Have you guys ever seen around the Sikh symbol of two swords tied together?

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah, it goes like, yeah, yeah.

Isaac Paul:

Yeah, exactly. What kind of came about from the sixth guru, Guru Hargobind, and these two swords are known as Miri Piri. Miri is referring to the one sword, which is the sword of politics and the physical world, the power and might of physical world. Piri is the spiritual world. The Guru Hargobind carried two swords with him as symbolizing like, yeah, we have our spiritual strength and our spiritual ideas, but we also are backing it up with political strength.

That became an important element of Sikhi. Then fast-forwarding to the last guru, Guru Gobind-

Andrew Marcus:

1605.

Isaac Paul:

Yeah, I gave you a date. It was not…

Andrew Marcus:

Dang it.

Isaac Paul:

He died around then.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah, yeah. Not exactly, but…

Isaac Paul:

Give me like 20 years or so, give or take. Yeah, around it’s the end of the 1600s, beginning of the 1700s, Guru Gobind, not to be confused with Guru Hargobind, but anyway, he was the one who instituted what is known as the Khalsa community. Have you guys seen that word around, Khalsa?

Andrew Marcus:

I’ve seen that a lot.

Isaac Paul:

You’ve probably seen it a lot.

Andrew Marcus:

Buses, on schools, on all that.

Isaac Paul:

Yeah, Khalsa, yeah. What is Khalsa? Well, up to that point, Sikhi had been a very kind of inclusive, like I said, it was very about inclusion and we’re all kind of seeking the oneness together. Whereas Guru Gobind, now, this is where it gets controversial, and I’ve actually seen Sikhs disagree with this or disagree with each other on this, where the more traditional Sikhs will obviously say, “Oh, the gurus were kind of saying the same thing.”

More, shall we say, liberal, maybe labeled liberal Sikhs might say, “Actually, it looks like Guru Gobind kind of is not doing the same thing that Guru Nanak is doing,” because Guru Nanak is all about we’re as one. Guru Gobind created the Khalsa community, and he created this institution of what’s called Amrit, which is baptism, or the Christian would be baptism. It’s a ceremony, an entrance, a passage of right ceremony that seeks to undergo. It happened in the context of, again, this battle with the Mughals, and the Mughals persecuting them, and then fighting back.

What happened is if you did this ceremony of Amrit, if you took Amrit, then you joined, you were not just a Sikh now, it was kind of like you’re, for lack of a better term, on the most inner circle.

Andrew Marcus:

Right.

Isaac Paul:

You don’t need to take Amrit to be a Sikh, but if you take-

Andrew Marcus:

It’s the next level of – ?

Isaac Paul:

Yeah, it’s kind of like leveling up. What was the formation of the Khalsa community that became a lot of what we see today, which is, again, incorporating politics as well as religious perspective. After that point, after Guru Gobind, the Khalsa was, so you guys are familiar with Vaisakhi, you see the… It’s the biggest festival in the lower mainland of the Sikhs, that commemorates the first instance of Amrit, that when Guru Gobind instituted that, that’s what Vaisakhi is celebrating.

Andrew Marcus:

Interesting.

Isaac Paul:

Today, just finishing the history, so from that point on, after that, what Guru Gobind said, he said, “There have been 10 Gurus, and there’s not going to be any more human gurus. After me, the last 11th Guru is going to be this book.” That’s why the Holy Book of Sikhism is called the Guru Granth Sahib, because it is viewed by Sikhs to be the last eternal Guru, that they are now following their Guru is the book. That’s why-

Andrew Marcus:

Interesting.

Isaac Paul:

A Sikh Temple is called a Gurdwara.

Andrew Marcus:

Oh, interesting.

Isaac Paul:

Dwara means door. Actually, you can see the relationship between English and Punjabi there. It’s the door to the Guru. The whole point of the Gurdwara is you’re going in to interact with the Guru. Who’s the Guru? The Guru is the book. From that point on, basically, the Sikhs kind of started creating their own, carving up their own little corner of India in Punjab. They actually had one of the most powerful armies and independent states during the British Raj, during the British occupation of India, for those many years.

The British interacted with the Sikhs as a separate country. The British never really conquered Punjab like that for a long time. They had this tradition of military might and the peak of Sikhi, of Sikhism as a political entity, was from the 17, 1800s when they had their independent state. Yeah, that’s kind of leads us to pretty much the modern era. Sikhi is by far, the most recent of the major world religions.

Brian Pue:

Yeah, we were talking just before we hit record how with some of the more Eastern religions, it was difficult for me to wrap my head around some of the foundational beliefs. You said that Sikhism, if I’m saying that correctly again, but it had some foundational truths or some foundational realities.

Do they view the word, again, I know every individual person’s probably going to look at this differently, but as a general kind of sweeping statement, do they view truth in the same way that we would within the western culture? I usually use a working definition, as we know that Jesus is a truth, but truth being that which corresponds with reality. It is more objective, it is not just an individual person’s observation. How do they view the term reality, truth, those kinds of things?

Isaac Paul:

Okay. I’m going to kind of answer your question, but we’re going to have to backtrack a bit.

Brian Pue:

Love it.

Isaac Paul:

This is the problem that as soon as we start talking about Eastern religions, this is something that I think the church in the West has done a bad job of engaging with Eastern religions, because what happens is we are in our own little bubble, where we interact with secularists, with atheists, with Muslims a lot. The truth is, when you actually zoom out, you realize that that’s all in the same bubble, in the same world.

Andrew Marcus:

Right.

Isaac Paul:

Our atheists in the West are Christian atheists, because the God they don’t believe in is our God. They don’t not believe in Krishna.

Andrew Marcus:

Right, of course. Interesting.

Isaac Paul:

They don’t not believe in Yahweh. Even the atheists we talk to are still coming to religion from our perspective of what God is, what truth is, what I am, all this kind of stuff. Eastern philosophies and religions just have a completely different fundamental axiom. That’s the problem.

What makes Sikhism even more complicated is they have this influence from Hinduism and Islam, but Islam is a Western religion, and Hinduism is Eastern religion. I would say a way to understand this is Sikhism is like the son of Hinduism and the stepson of Islam. Fundamentally, it’s an Eastern religion, it’s getting, depending on who you talk to or ask-

Andrew Marcus:

Interesting.

Isaac Paul:

… Certain amounts of Western religion kind of ideas coming into it. When we come to something like reality, so here’s an interesting thought. Guru Nanak is talking in the 1400s. This is before the British have taken control of India. At the time, the religious kind of situation was Hinduism was it, that was the kind of world they were living in. Well, in the Hindu worldview, you have this kind of idea of, there’s a concept of non-duality versus duality.

In Western religions, we have duality, where we believe that I exist, and you exist, and the external world exists, and God exists. I am separate from God, I’m separate from you. There’s a duality there. Non-dualistic worldviews, like Hinduism, are saying, “Actually, no, everything is one. Everything is one. You and I are all components of one. We’re just different avatars, or different versions, or different expressions of the oneness in different ways.”

Here’s what’s interesting is that Sikhi, I would say, it seems to me, and this is as a non-Sikh, a non-scholar on this, it seems to me, and this is a debate I’ve actually heard Sikhs engage in themselves. In fact, I’ve heard it’s a big issue in the Sikh community now is Guru Nanak’s original message seems to be a non-dualistic message, that the idea is that we are all one. We’re all, yeah, everything is one. That’s what the Ik Onkar comes down to, that everything is one.

Break down the word Onkar for a second. Onkar is actually derivative of the word ohm. Perhaps our viewers, listeners, it’s like the stereotypical eastern guy saying like, “Ohm,” like this, right? Well, that’s because ohm is actually the fundamental sound, it’s known as the primordial sound of the universe, of existence. You can break it down. The vowel quality symbolizes certain things, and we’re not going to get into that. Fundamentally, in Hinduism, that’s what ohm is. It’s like expressing the fundamental reality.

By meditating on ohm, you’re meditating on reality. Ik Onkar, that’s where Onkar is coming from that kind of perspective. If you read a translation of Ik Onkar in English right now, most of the time, it will say, “There is one God,” but that’s a totally unhelpful translation, because when they say God and we say God, we don’t mean the same thing.

Andrew Marcus:

That’s right.

Isaac Paul:

When they say God, they’re saying, “God is, everything is God, and also, nothing is God,” in a way, kind of. This, I would say, is the technical, kind of where Guru Nanak was coming from. Then shortly after, you have the British coming and bringing Christianity, and then you have the Islamic influence from the Mughals. Then today, obviously, you have Sikhs in the diaspora and somewhere like Canada, where they’re influenced by western religions. What Sikhs today believe is often very different than that.

I think a lot of Sikhs today actually do have a dualistic philosophy, and they view God as a separate God who’s out there, who’s ethereal, who’s unknowable, and who’s has multiple paths to get there. Fundamentally, they’re not seeing it as we’re all one in the same way. Another example is in Sikhism, there’s something called the panch-chor, which is the five thieves, which are kind of the five vices, and one of them is ego. Well, so it seems to me that Guru Nanak, when he’s talking about ego, what he means is your conception of self that exists, as in you don’t exist. There is no I.

Modern Sikhs will often say, “Well, that just means pridefulness.” Every single step along the way, you have issues in defining your terms. This is where Sikhism is very complicated. It kind of straddles the line between dualistic and non-dualistic, and Western/Eastern religions.

Andrew Marcus:

Interesting.

Isaac Paul:

… It can be difficult to really figure out exactly what’s going on. Then you add onto that the fact that it’s so new that they’re still just figuring out, if you look at Christianity in the first 300 years, if you asked a Christian, “Is Jesus God,” in the second century, you’re going to get very different answers because all these heresies are running around and stuff.

You need a bit of time for it to settle and people to figure out what’s going on. That’s why Sikhism is a big challenge to deal with and to interact with a lot of times.

Andrew Marcus:

I guess since when we talked about Islam, it’s like, the writings and the laws, it was very medieval. They’re not going to change it. I guess with Sikhism is because it’s newer, are they just adapting and modernizing as they go?

Isaac Paul:

Well, yes.

Andrew Marcus:

Would the writings say, “Everything is one,” but modern Sikhis are saying, “No, there’s actually a dual?”

Isaac Paul:

Yeah, I see what you’re saying. I think it’s much more subconscious than that. This is why, the fundamental axiom that’s different in West and East, our axiom in the West, which is an axiom, is a fundamental truth that can’t be proven, is that I exist. Descartes is like, “I think, therefore I am.”

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah, sure.

Isaac Paul:

We have a fundamental axiom. Eastern philosophies actually say, “No, I do not exist.” You can’t prove or disprove whether you exist or not to someone else. That is completely fruitless. This is kind of the issue of if you grow up with one of those axioms, it’s going to be difficult to jump into the other one. I think what’s happening, a lot is Sikhs are growing up with the Western dualistic axiom, and then they’re having a hard time jumping back into the Eastern axiom. That creates difficulties.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah, for sure. That’s really interesting. I wonder, so what do they think about when they hear the word sin? Just tying in with Christianity, what do they think of Jesus? What do they think of sin? Do they believe that exists, or…

Isaac Paul:

Well, so one of the best things about Sikhi, and I think one of the things that as a church, when we talk about how we engage with Sikhs in general, something we need to really talk about is they’re very practically minded. That’s one of the things that Guru Nanak from the very beginning instituted is that you cannot just have your spiritual faith be this ethereal thing that you believe.

It has to be practically lived out. They have this concept of Seva, it’s also in Hinduism, but in Sikhi, it’s very, very important, where you should be serving people. If you go to a Gurdwara, you can have a free meal seven days a week.

Andrew Marcus:

They’re amazing at that. They are so…

Isaac Paul:

Yeah. Exactly.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah, that’s amazing.

Isaac Paul:

It’s all equality. Everyone sits on the floor, everyone eats the same food. Doesn’t matter what your caste, what your wealth is, it doesn’t matter. Then they also, if you need a place to stay, a place to sleep for the night, they’ll do that.

Andrew Marcus:

When there’s natural disasters, they just, everyone opens up their doors-

Isaac Paul:

Yep, exactly.

Andrew Marcus:

… And their Gurdwaras, yeah.

Isaac Paul:

Actually, this kind of goes into the original kind of interaction with Sikhi and Christianity, because what happened was Christianity was introduced to India by the British, and it was really appealing for low caste Hindus, because the caste system in Hinduism, for those who don’t know, it’s a birth based system where you’re born into a caste, and that determines your job. It determines who you can marry.

As you rise up through the caste system, you’re closer and closer to achieving the goal of release, or Moksha, which is basically released from the cycle of reincarnation, which is the goal of Hinduism. India, still to this day, even though the caste system is illegal officially, it still exists. Even in Canada, there have been reports of people being discriminated against because of their caste.

When Christianity came to India, that was a big appeal to the lower caste, saying, “Oh, wow, yeah, I’m made in God’s image? Oh man, I’m a child of God? Yeah, I’m definitely going to sign onto this.” The upper caste Brahmins and the priest caste, they were like, “Nah, forget this. This is not for me.” Obviously, they were good.

Andrew Marcus:

Taken away their, yeah, yeah.

Isaac Paul:

Christianity began to be known in India as the religion of the poor and the destitute, because that was generally who is becoming Christians. The missionaries’ strategy was to build schools, to build hospitals, to provide food, all this kind of stuff. Well, guess what? The Sikhs didn’t need any of that. They had their own community. They had their own system of being self-sustaining.

They had Seva within their own community. They said, “We don’t need your handouts, we don’t need your stuff.” Even to this day in India, Sikhs will view Christianity as like this, “Oh, you, too bad you had to become a Christian to survive,” that’s kind of the vibe.

Andrew Marcus:

Interesting.

Isaac Paul:

This is something that is really important for us to understand, that when we’re interacting with Sikhs on this – before we could even get to a point of where we’re talking about sin or God or anything like that, we first need to kind of say, “Hey, we’re not just living out our faith in this ethereal impract…”

Andrew Marcus:

More practical, yeah, yeah.

Isaac Paul:

We are practically living our faith out. To be fair, I would say in the West, we’re just a bit cowed into silence sometimes. The church in the West has done plenty of things, and we need to definitely grow in this area, but also, the church in the West has done and continues to do a lot, in terms of if you look at giving to charities in general from Christians, it’s outrageous compared to any other group of people. Just pointing that kind of thing out, just, “Hey, look, actually, yes, we agree with you, and we also do that.” That kind is giving us an audience.

Andrew Marcus:

We’re building a bridge. We’re building the bridge, yep.

Isaac Paul:

Yep, we’re building a bridge and giving us an audience to say, “Hey, actually, we’re not just speaking out of our mouth, we’re working with our hands.” Now, when you get to the concept of sin, I think a good question to ask Sikhs is, “Before Sikhi, was there light? Was there any revelation from God?” They’ll say yes. The whole idea of Sikhi, let’s talk about the word guru for a second. Guru, we think of guru means teacher.

Actually, it means something a bit more than that. The Sikh perspective on Guru is that it’s like the eternal wisdom of the divine that has always existed, but taken on different forms, different times. Its kind of like fullest and final form was in the gurus of Sikhi. They would say Jesus was a guru, that the wisdom of the divine was in Jesus, or they would say that, they are very happy to say that other religious figures were gurus too, or expressions of the wisdom of the divine.

Andrew Marcus:

Interesting.

Isaac Paul:

They would say, “Yes, of course, before Sikhi, there was light. There was wisdom, there was the divine working.” The question then is, “Okay, well, how far can you push that back? Before Islam, was there light?” “Yes.” “Before Christianity, was there light? Okay, how far can you go back?” If you go all the way back, you get back to the story of the Garden of Eden, and you get back to the story of Adam and Eve.

This is something that I think is very helpful to just point out and say, “Hey, we also believe that there was light, that there has been light, that God has not left the people alone without any sort of idea of who he is.” The first kind of evidence that we have of this is the Garden of Eden and this expression of sin, at least that we see in the Bible. Yeah, that’s a good starting point.

Andrew Marcus:

Well, Isaac, thank you so much for joining us in today’s program.

Isaac Paul:

It’s been a pleasure.

Andrew Marcus:

Hey, thanks so much for joining us today. For more great content, check out THE INDOUBT SHOW on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Music, or wherever you stream your podcasts. We hope you enjoyed it today. Feel free to check out Indoubt.ca, we have some great resources available to you. Have an awesome day.

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