Ep.82: Should Christians FAST Today? w/ Matt Bender

Isaac Dagneau:

Hey, welcome to THE INDOUT SHOW. My name is Isaac. As you can hear, Andrew is not with us today. He’s actually not feeling super great, so I have the privilege to step in and hang out with all of you today.

Today, we have a great episode. We’re talking about fasting, specifically biblical fasting and some of the benefits of it, the how-tos of it. It’s awesome. We have Matt Bender. He’s a Young Adults Pastor of a local church here. He’s going to be with us chatting. We have Brendan and Skylar chatting with us as well. It’s going to be a lot of fun. I’m glad to have you along.

With us here today, he’s a new friend of mine, his name is Matt Bender. He’s the Young Adults Pastor at CLA, but I’m sure there’s much more to know about him than that. Here he is, Matt.

Matt Bender:

No, that’s about it.

Isaac Dagneau:

That’s about it?

Matt Bender:

Yeah.

Brendan:

That’s all he does.

Matt Bender:

No, it’s good to meet you, man.

Isaac Dagneau:

Yeah.

Matt Bender:

What do you want to know?

Isaac Dagneau:

So, yeah, just tell us a little bit about you. We’re new friends, so just give us a little snapshot about who Matt Bender is.

Matt Bender:

Yeah. Oh, man. Yeah, a little bit, I feel like I am a guy on a journey trying to figure out what life means. There’s this quote from this guy, Walden what’s-his-name. He wrote this book, in it, trying to figure out the meaning and purpose of life. In it, he had this line where he was like, “I don’t want to get to the end of my life and find out that I never truly lived.” I feel like that’s, if I was to sum up a theme phrase for my life, even before following Jesus, I feel like that was it; where it was just being on this journey of trying to figure out what was the good life, whatever that meant.

At the time, high school, university meant raves, parties, and then realized that that didn’t really work. Not at all. I think that’s more, I think something that I feel like, especially I feel like I’ve been noticing more and more that I follow Jesus, is just how much those longings were pointing to him. But I think it was the point of actually getting to the end of being the… I feel like I resonate a lot with Augustine, of this searching heart that’s trying to find fulfillment. I feel like that was most of my life before following Jesus. And then now, since following him, it’s like, okay, yeah, he is the answer to that. And it was like so much more on offer than I feel like I ever thought was possible.

Yeah. So, got radically saved six years ago, I think it is, on a mission trip when I was building homes in Hawaii, which doesn’t sound like a mission trip at all. I got suckered into one of those, they were like, “Well, maybe if we coax him with Hawaii, that’ll get him.” And then on the trip just, yeah, had a radical moment with Jesus where he was like, “Hey.” Grew up in a Christian home my whole life, but it just wasn’t very much a practicing home. It was very much the pray before dinner, that’s about it, kind of home. It felt like it was one of those, “Hey, you’ve heard about me. You’ve been in church your whole life, but actually, I want you to follow me.” Yeah, and I feel like the last six years has been the journey of trying to figure out what does that mean? Because it is way more confusing and simple. But yeah.

Isaac Dagneau:

That’s awesome. That’s so good.

Matt Bender:

Loving it.

Isaac Dagneau:

What you just said, that reminded me in Job – some of us know the story of Job – and when he gets to the end, and God kind of talks to him, “Where were you when I did all this stuff?” I love what Job says near the end there. He says, “I had heard you with the hearing of my ear, but now my eye sees you.” And it’s like, when you just said that, I’m like, man, your whole life is like, “I’ve heard about God. But it’s like, now I see.” You know? And that’s amazing.

Matt Bender:

I feel like, yeah, Job, or whether it’s Jacob wrestling with God, I feel like that picture of wrestling with God has even been my journey with, I feel like, a lot of my journey with God, where I’m like, “Okay, I read the words. Read your word, and I look at my life.” And I’m like, “Yeah, there is some cohesion, but there’s also not a lot of cohesion.” And I’m like, “I know there’s more.” Knowing that there’s more ahead and that actually is, I think, a lot of the driver, the fuel of like, “Okay, this isn’t all that there is on offer.” And even looking at or reading some of the saints, and it’s like, hey, they experienced a level with Jesus that was not what most people call normal Christianity. And it’s just like, wait, that actually could be normal Christianity, so let’s actually pursue after that and see what happens.

Isaac Dagneau:

That’s really cool.

Matt Bender:

Yeah.

Isaac Dagneau:

We are going to be talking about fasting. Fasting is a biblical activity, and not just biblical. It’s all around. You can go to Indigo or Chapters or Barnes and Noble, whatever, and go to this section on health and find multiple books on fasting. But let’s just begin kind of groundroot. When we talk about fasting, what are we talking about, Matt?

Matt Bender:

I think first, maybe back up two seconds, is I think everyone’s favorite topic is probably fasting.

Isaac Dagneau:

That’s true.

Matt Bender:

Which I think probably says something. I remember one of my mentors, he was like that, “The enemy won’t go after anything that doesn’t have power.” And I’m like , I feel like fasting is always one of those things where it’s like, eh. Well, we don’t need to do it, or we don’t need to talk about it, so let’s just shove it under the rug.

Isaac Dagneau:

Sure. Sure.

Matt Bender:

I think there’s something there. But dude, I think the waters that we swim in right now, I feel like especially whether it’s weight loss technique, whether it’s new diet fad, whether it’s cultural, whatever it ends up being, I think it muddies the waters of being able to do it well, which I think is frustrating. Or people automatically assume that, “Oh, well, you’re doing this practice. Well, you can also do it for these health benefits on the side so you can kill two birds with one stone.” And I think, I think that’s one of the dangers of that being so common in our cultural space, is it makes us, I think, need to have extra intention into the spirit of which we’re going into fasting. I think they’re two different things.

Isaac Dagneau:

Yeah. No, absolutely. I agree.

Matt Bender:

I think one’s beneficial. Fasting, fasting for health reasons, especially if it’s encouraged by a doctor. Amazing. Powerful. Not fasting from scripture. And I think it’s helpful to delineate the two. I’ve done both.

Isaac Dagneau:

So for someone, though, who’s completely unfamiliar with even the concept of fasting, guess even a strange kind of word, so what is it?

Matt Bender:

Yeah, so fasting is, actually, I would say maybe a better definition would be slowing or feasting. But I think fasting in a scriptural, biblical sense is where we abstain from food specifically to feast on God and learning to feast on God, and learning to… I’d say it’s something where you are praying with your body a level of dependence and wanting of Jesus. It’s a way of saying it with your body. So it’s a way of hungering after more of God, I would say.

Isaac Dagneau:

So fasting is something that we might have read it in the Bible that people do it, but it’s something that ought to be continued today.

Matt Bender:

Mm-hmm. Well, I would say Jesus assumes a lot on fasting as well as prayer. And I think it’s Matthew 6 that he says, “When you fast,” and there’s an assumption there. Mind you, you can do all of the cultural background. And it was like, okay, well, that was the Jewish practice of the day, so it was already the assumption that… So he was talking to people who are fasting, so of course he’s going to be saying, “When you fast.”

Isaac Dagneau:

Right.

Matt Bender:

Yes. Yada, yada, yada. And I think, I don’t know. Every time I feel like I get those questions of like, “Well, do I have to do this?” I feel like I almost want to flip it. Typically, what’s underlying is this idea of the minimum entrance requirements to the Kingdom of God. It’s like, “Well, what’s the baseline that I need to do to get in?” It’s like, no, if you want more of Jesus, that’s what the invitation for fasting is. The invitation for fasting is to have more of him available in your life. That’s what Jesus, when he gets pushed back from the Pharisees of, “Why don’t your disciples fast?” He says, “Well, I’m with them right now, but there will be a day when I leave, and then they’ll fast.”

Isaac Dagneau:

Yeah, they will fast.

Matt Bender:

So it’s like there is something, I think it’s called the brag room fast, where it’s like you’re fasting on behalf of saying with your body, “I want more of him in my life.” And that, I think, it’s not where it’s righteousness. It’s not to try and convince God necessarily. It’s this way of posturing yourself, of saying, “Okay, I’m wanting to hunger for more of him in me.” I don’t know. As with most, I think of the practices, this thing is just wisdom. It is like, okay, you have the opportunity to live life closer and intimacy with Jesus. If you want more of that, well, here’s another avenue to do it.

I think people can kind of hear it two different ways, of a hyper-legalistic of like, “Well, then I should probably fast every day for the rest of my life.”

Brendan:

“Fast 40 days right now.”

Matt Bender:

Don’t do that. It’s not trying to earn something. It’s like, God will love you more if you fast three days a week versus two days. It’s like, no, that’s not how he works.

Isaac Dagneau:

Yeah. That’s good. That’s good.

Matt Bender:

Yeah.

Isaac Dagneau:

Yeah.

Matt Bender:

I think it’s also something, too, like there’s times where people have tried doing something, and then they’ve like, “Oh, well, that was really hard, so we need to dial it back.” Or it’s like, “Oh, well, we have prayer, fasting scripture, whatever it is.” So you’re like, “Oh, well, I’ll start small.” So it’s a little bite-sized piece that I can chew. And yes, there’s wisdom there, but I think we also have way more spiritual capacity than we think we do.

And I think there’s something to even thinking about a muscle. To actually grow the muscle, you need almost to stress this slightly too much. And then you’d rest following that, and then you build on that. You actually grow your capacity for it. I think it’s something similar with fasting that it’s like, okay, if someone’s like, “Oh, yeah, maybe I want to start doing this.” And Which I think we’re going to eventually go into the benefits of it, but I think there’s, “Oh, yeah, I think benefits line up. It feels like there’s an invitation from Jesus into this space. Well, I think I’m going to start with a 40-day fast.” And it’s like, no.

Brendan:

Slow down.

Matt Bender:

Yeah. Hold your horses. That’s a terrible idea. I think that it’s… I don’t know-

Brendan:

“But Jesus did it.”

Isaac Dagneau:

Come on.

Brendan:

This is like, “He did no water. Let’s go.”

Matt Bender:

No, it’s just like, that’s a bad idea.

Isaac Dagneau:

That’s right.

Matt Bender:

I think a lot of times, or at least, I know for me, I’m very much all or nothing. So it’s like, okay, well let may be probably way too intense on this thing. And then it’s just like, you just never want to do it ever again.

Isaac Dagneau:

Yeah. Totally. So let me just give an example because this fits in really well. So three years ago, I think it was, I read this book called Why Revival Tarries by Leonard Ravenhill. An amazing book, by the way.

Matt Bender:

It’ll shame you into no end. It is a powerful book. I love it.

Isaac Dagneau:

Okay. So here we go. All right.

Matt Bender:

It’s a reread every year to convict me in a healthy way, but I have to-

Isaac Dagneau:

It literally kicks you down and just keeps kicking you over and over and over. Three years ago, I read this book, which these two men over here need to read it because it’s amazing. I got to reread it.

But anyways, he talks about fasting, just the importance of it. So I get so pumped. I don’t know if you guys watch movie and you just want to be the main character after. You ever get that?

Brendan:

Oh, yeah. I enlisted the military seven times.

Isaac Dagneau:

That’s awesome. Okay.

Brendan:

I was rejected every time.

Isaac Dagneau:

Totally. So I just got super pumped. I’m like, “I’m going to be… Not Leonard Ravenhill, but I’m going to be like this guy he’s talking about.” I talked to my wife. We had three kids at the time. I’m like, “Brit, could I just go out into the woods for three days?” Listen, I’m not an outdoorsman. I feel a little shame to say that. But anyway, so I tell her, “Could your mom come over and just hang out for three nights so I could just go and fast for three days, three nights, just water up in the middle of nowhere.”

So she’s like, “Go for it.” So I tried this. I went up to Weaver Lake just with water. The first day was like, “Okay, I got this. I’m doing really well.” The second day, oh, it hurt. I was sapped, just completely sapped of energy. I had no… Everything was horrible, and nothing was working out for me. I tried to pray. Nothing. I tried to enjoy the creation. Nothing. I was just horrible, and I came home early. I just felt so absolutely defeated.

So anyways, Matt’s wisdom just earlier is really important. You may think even three days, three nights, whatever, maybe you guys are like, “Yeah, it’s easy. Come on.” You try it. Seriously.

Matt Bender:

It’s hard.

Isaac Dagneau:

It’s hard unless you’re used to fasting. But anyways, I think that’s-

Matt Bender:

I think that’s what you just said of being used to fasting. I think that’s actually, I think the invitation, which maybe we could talk about it right after, that I think the invitation from Jesus, as in most of the practices… You don’t pray once. And then you don’t try prayer, and then it’s like, “Oh, yeah, well, I did it,” and now move on. I think there’s a lifestyle of fasting that is really healthy and really helpful. I think if you ask anyone who has a lifestyle of fasting, how often they have broken fasts prematurely, that number would be probably, I know for myself that’s a number that’s way higher than I want to ever admit, the amount of fasts that I’ve broken that weren’t invitations from Jesus to break. It was just like, “Oh man, that cheeseburger looks great. Right now, it’s like I can’t do it.” And I think we were talking offer, the amount that fasting humiliates you and humbles you is crazy. It’s like, I think I love Jesus until I fast. And then I’m like, “Man, I love steak so much. So much.” Yeah. But there’s something that fasting does to you that will make you feel like a worse Christian, and I think that’s the crazy part.

Yeah. Yeah. It’s the crazy part. Yeah.

Isaac Dagneau:

Which is what we kind of need, though, because you mentioned earlier… What did you say? Fasting is for feasting on the Lord. You get to this place where you’re so humbled down, and God’s going to work with you better when you’re humbled and contrite than, “I’ve got this church thing. I’ve got my…” He’s going to work with you. He can work with that. I think there’s a reason why even the beginning of Jesus’s public ministry, he spent 40 days not eating or drinking to kind of get him to that place of absolute humility-

Matt Bender:

100%.

Isaac Dagneau:

… so that he would obey. Because Philippians 2 talks about the fact that he was humbled, and he learned obedience through, whatever, humiliation, something like that, to the point where he could actually obey and go to the Cross.

Matt Bender:

100%. 100%.

Isaac Dagneau:

I think that’s really good, Matt.

Matt Bender:

Sure love that you brought in that story of Jesus right after his baptism, that he goes off into the wilderness. You’re a pastor. I feel like this is a very, very common wrestle in the church today, of there not being the spirit of adoption in most people. Whereas most of us, I feel like we’re struggling with spirit of slavery, knowing that we’re sons and daughters, not really a thing for a lot of people, or it’s a thing that we wrestle with. And I think if we had followed Jesus’s example in that is that he received his identity from the Father at his baptism, and his first place to go was into fasting. I think there’s something unique, even just reflecting on that story, that you learn in fasting.

Also, what fasting does is I think there is something in fasting that invites the attack of the enemy to resist the identity that is spoken over Jesus in that moment. But it was actually something that in resisting through fasting, I actually believe that Jesus was at the peak of his powers through fasting. The devil didn’t come to him in weakness, which I think so often is what I thought it was like, “Oh, man, of course I’m wanting to feel tempted while I’m fasting because he’s coming to me while I’m weak.” It’s like, no, the enemy comes when there’s strength. But it’s actually, I think it’s through resisting that actually it’s Jesus that then solidify… It’s like him solidifying his identity as the son of God, and then he manifested afterwards. I think even for my own life, that’s the thing that I noticed that I think I wrestle with and I think a lot of people wrestle with is we have this space of that we’re craving sonship or we’re craving daughtership, and we’re wanting these things. Is daughtership a word? I realize this…

Isaac Dagneau:

No. Just go with it.

Matt Bender:

We’ll move on. We’ll move on. We’re craving the identity piece of life with God. It’s like, as soon as trial hits it, we go back into whatever it was, and then we need to be told that we’re a son and a daughter again instead of it’s actually through resisting that space, I think through even the strength that comes in fasting in prayer, that then it becomes manifest and solidified in our lives. So it’s one of the benefits, which we can tack on more at the end of this. But one of the benefits, I think, is that it affirms our identity in adoption. That’s one of the things that will come up, or the opportunity I think for it to come up is like, yeah, it’ll invite all the things that are wrong, the lies that are spoken of. It’ll invite all of it into your life, but actually invites the space to be able to resist those things so that your actual identity can be solidified.

Isaac Dagneau:

Yes. Yes. That’s good. That’s really good. And when Satan was tempting Jesus at the end of the fast, just to confirm your point, when he’s tempting him with food, like, “You could make this rock and a bread. Yum.” Or whatever. Power, security. These are the ways that he attempted him. Right?

Matt Bender:

100%.

Isaac Dagneau:

But because of his humiliation and his weakness, in that place of weakness and his recognition of his adoption as the son, he was able to recollect his father’s words immediately.

Matt Bender:

100%. 100%.

Isaac Dagneau:

“Like my father says, Him only you shall serve,” or whatever.

Matt Bender:

Totally.

Isaac Dagneau:

That’s a great point because you’re in a place where you’ve basically abstained so much from that fleshly craving that you can actually hear. You’re not stuffing yourself to not hear, but now you can actually understand who you are in Christ.

Matt Bender:

Totally.

Isaac Dagneau:

And that’s huge.

Matt Bender:

Yeah. Well, the first temptation think is that, “Man shall not eat on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.” And I think even in reflecting on that, and especially in our moment today, I think there’s something that we are so full on so many other things that I think even like fasting is like trying it out, I think it’ll take a bit of trying it out because we’re so full on so many other things, and so many other things that are not the word of God. Our biblical literacy is anemic level. It’s not good. I think there is something to what we are eating, what we’re taking in that is filling up our lives that even if even people with silence and solitude, it’s like, I think it takes a very long time because it’s the amount of information noise that’s pumping into our brains.

Skylar:

Yeah. This is good because I have a little bit of a segue here on that. Because I was going to ask you at some point, what are some improper techniques to fasting? But I’ll give you a little bit of a story that I had. So I’ve worked with some youth last year. I was acting as a youth leader. I remember this one kid came up to me and he started talking about fasting out of nowhere, and I was like, “Okay, this kid has never had interest in literally any conversation. I’ll take what I could get.”

But then he started kind of bashing it and being like, “Oh, yeah, my mom makes me fast from my video games,” and whatever, and so forth. I just sat down with him and I was just like, “Oh.” I’m just like, “Okay. How does she fast?” “Oh, she just fasts from food or whatever.” I’m like, “So what’s your understanding of fasting? Is it just that you’re choosing to not do something, and then you don’t do anything in that time where you’re fasting?”

So I ended up giving him a little bit of a lesson on it, probably went home to his mom, and I may have gotten in trouble maybe. But at the same time, I was just like, “Yeah. Fasting from your video games, is that just you shutting off your video games for five hours and then just sulking, or is there an intention to it?”

Brendan:

That was me. That was in high school.

Matt Bender:

Oh, man, dude, that’s so real. I think especially any practice of abstaining from something, whether it’s abstaining from noise through silence, solitude; whether it’s abstaining from food, whatever it ends up being; I think that it’s just as much what you put into that space. I can sit in silence with no intention of having it be silence directed toward Jesus, no intention whatsoever. And just as much, I could abstain from food and have it be… Or I’m just trying to beat myself of, “Ah, food is bad.” No, that’s not really the point of this.

Skylar:

Did this bring me any closer to Christ in this process? Well, yeah.

Matt Bender:

I think that’s it, is that for all the practices, it’s all about the end. I think that’s something that scares me a little bit sometimes, is I think how much I would be friends with Pharisees. I would think I would love the Pharisees. They had amazing practice. They were super intentional. They thought that devotion was going to bring God back. I think that would be like, “Yeah, down.” I would love that.

And I’m thinking that scares me a lot because they did all the right things and they missed Jesus. I think that’s the noticing of what the intention in fasting is, the direction of your gaze and what you’re looking at. I think what fasting actually has the opportunity to do is actually to bring deeper clarity of the direction of where you’re looking.

Skylar:

Yeah. What you’re filling in there.

Matt Bender:

Yeah. 100%.

Skylar:

That’s awesome.

Isaac Dagneau:

That’s good. Going back to that time when some people came up and asked Jesus, “Why are you… You’re just fasting, right?” He says, “When the bridegroom is with them, they don’t need to fast. But when he goes, then they will fast.” I think it’s helpful because when the disciples had Jesus there, you could say in a sense that there wasn’t really hope because he was there. They didn’t need to have faith and a hope because he was already there.

Matt Bender:

He was with them.

Isaac Dagneau:

He’s with them and it’s great. But when he goes, then they fast. We can maybe talk about this, get your thoughts on this. But if someone goes into fasting expecting to feast and be fully satisfied in Jesus after the fast, I think that maybe could maybe be a little bit of a misdirection. Because what it ought to maybe do is bring about the clarity, like you said, of the end, of the knowledge of he is coming back. So fasting, it is a feast, but it’s almost feasting on the hope rather than on the actual thing, because the actual thing’s coming in the future. Would that-

Matt Bender:

I think I would say a little bit of both.

Isaac Dagneau:

Sure.

Matt Bender:

Yeah. Yeah. I think there’s something to the practice of doing it that is, I think inviting an actual encounter with Jesus now while also talking about, okay, this is pointing to something that’s a future hope. But I think also the promise of it can be very misleading to what actually happens in practice. I feel always a worst Christian every single time I fast. It’s like you have to do it hangry. It’s like, that’s me to a T. I remember I was reading, I think it was in Celebration of Discipline by Richard Foster, and he was talking about this story, and that he was having his time with God, and he was like, “God, why am I always so angry when I fast?” So he was like, “I’m going stop fasting.” And he felt like the spirit was saying to him, he’s like, “No, you don’t get angry when you fast and it’s angers in you and it comes up when you fast.”

I feel like what fasting does is it brings up all the toxins. I think there’s actually probably way more similarity to our physiology than we think there is, especially in spiritual life, that it brings up all of the bad things in my life. Just as well as it brings up bad breath. It brings up a little bit of – it gets rid of gut problems. It does all of that, but it also does that, I think, in your spiritual life we have people, or even for myself, it’s like, okay, I get more angry when I fast. And I could be like, “Oh, God, this is the enemy trying to attack me.” Or it’s like, no, actually, anger is in me, and it just gets revealed because I have nothing else to numb it with.

Food’s my numbing. It’s like every time you feel it’ll little take the edge off with a snack, and it’s like, no. It’s us trying to band-aid over something that’s actually in our soul. Whether it’s, I know a lot of times these are kind of more classic guy ones, but it’s like anger, lust, typically, are the things that come up. Because it’s like there appetites that we’re looking to satisfy. I think we can dismiss those or feel shame about those, where it’s like, “Oh, well, am I a worst Christian? Every time I try and do the Jesus thing and fast, these things come up.” When it’s like, I think actually God uses fasting to actually to bring up those things, so now they’re on the surface of your heart, and then he can take those things away, which I think that is where the partnership with God in fasting can be really powerful, where it’s like, “Oh, I’m actually going to intentionally do this maybe every single week in more of a lifestyle way to try and bring up all the things that are not him in my life.”

Isaac Dagneau:

Totally. That’s really good.

Matt Bender:

And then give them over to him. Not try and be like, “Okay, well, I’m going to try now fight these battles.” It’s like, no, actually surrendering this and just be like, “God, I need you to take these things away from my heart.”

Isaac Dagneau:

That’s so good.

Matt Bender:

Would it be helpful as to how to start fasting?

Isaac Dagneau:

Yeah. Yeah. No, that would be good. That would be good. For someone who has no idea, “How do I do this?”

Matt Bender:

I think I would start either 24 hours sun up to sundown. If you’re like, “That’s way too much,” start with a meal. I think again, it’s the heart posture of doing it and then what you are inviting and replacing with it. And I think just in those spaces, whether you’re like, “Okay, I’m going to spend it…” Maybe you’re at work, go for a walk to a park somewhere, spend that time either in prayer, or I love listening to the Dwell app, just listening to scripture during that time. You can get through a whole book of the Bible if you want. I think there’s so much truth in the Deuteronomy statement of actually learning to feast on his word in the midst of that space. I think there’s something to the rhythm of actually doing that that maybe not right away, maybe not a couple months in, but I think eventually, it gets to the space where it’s actually you are learning to feast.

Actually, I noticed it didn’t happen in myself until I was starting to build the lifestyle, and then I felt the invitation and was like, okay, actually I want you to do a seven day. And actually, it was the seven day that actually unlocks the space of, “Oh, this is what it means to feast while fasting.” But I didn’t have that just during the one day. So if you don’t feel it during the one day, don’t feel discouraged by it. It might just feel hard and annoying, and the headache and all that stuff.

Isaac Dagneau:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Totally.

Matt Bender:

But it’s growing that muscle.

Isaac Dagneau:

That’s really cool. That’s encouraging. That’s awesome. Well, I think we can wrap it up here. Lots of benefits of fasting. It’s hard, but it’s humbling. But we feast on Jesus, and we reorient our desires to him and not to the things in our life. So yeah. Thanks again, Matt, for being with us today.

Matt Bender:

So glad being here.

Isaac Dagneau:

Hey, thanks so much for joining us today. For more great content, check out The Indoubt Show on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Music, or wherever you stream your podcasts. We hope you enjoyed it today. Feel free to check out indoubt.ca. We have some great resources available to you. Have an awesome day.