Ep.92: Rethinking Spiritual GIFTS | Live w/ Fredy Orozco

Speaker 1:

Hey, everyone. Welcome to THE INDOUBT SHOW. On today’s show, we’ll be tuning into a live event that we did at Northview Church in Abbotsford. It was an awesome night packed with young adults submitting their questions about spiritual gifts. What are spiritual gifts? What’s the difference between gifts and talents? How do you discern what gifts you have? Well, let’s jump into this conversation with our host, Andrew Marcus, and guests, Fredy Orozco and Luke Friesen. Enjoy the program.

Andrew Marcus:

Well, hey, everybody. Welcome to THE INDOUBT SHOW. Welcome. Yes, yes. Welcome, welcome. Hey, we’re so honored to be here. We are here live at Northview Church for the ReThink. And man, we are so pumped. For those of you listening in audio world, you’re realizing, wow, those cheers are real. They’re real cheers. That’s not a sound bite. We are in front of people today, and we are so pumped to be here. And we are talking about spiritual gifts. I’m so, so pumped. We’re going to talk about what they are, what they’re not, should we know that we have them, all kinds of things about spiritual gifts. And so it’s going to be a great conversation. Very, very important topic. Why is it so important that we unpack spiritual gifts?

Fredy Orozco:

The reason this topic kind of came to mind is one of the big things that I see in a lot of young adults is just the desire to serve. And then one of the biggest obstacles is that there’s so many options, and people are like, “Where should I serve? What’s a good fit?” And I think one of the things that helps people find their sweet spot, if you will, the place where you’ll be the best fit is if it’s something that correlates with your gifting. God has given us all gifts. Christians believe that, all Christians believe that. And if you find a role in the church, in the community, that corresponds with the way you’re gifted, that’s the most likely place where you will flourish and then other people will benefit.

So it came about in a roundabout way just through wanting to help young adults find their place in this season. Everyone wants community. Everyone wants to be around, people want to add value. So serving is one of the primary ways we do that. So that led into the spiritual gifts discussion. And then just a lot of people, I think, struggle with the concept. People debate it. I mean, Christians debate everything I guess. I’ve had a few conversations in the last three or four months and a lot of lack of clarity. So I was like, let’s get Luke. Let’s get Andrew. Let’s crack a Bible and try to find some answers.

Andrew Marcus:

I love it. And tell me a little bit about your journey with what it was like for you trying to navigate learning what your gifts are. How’s the process like for you?

Fredy Orozco:

It’s a great question. I grew up in a really small church, super conservative, really kind of muted worship. So in my mind, there was two gifts growing up, people who preached and people who did hospitality stuff. So that’s all I had in mind. So then I just didn’t really understand that every Christian had a gift. And it wasn’t until I went on a DTS. So way back in the day, I guess 11 years ago now, I went on Trek, which is with now Multiply then called MB Mission. So very similar to YWAM or capernwray. And this dude came in and was like, “Do you know that you’re gifted?” And I was like, “I mean, I think I’m average.” And he was like, “No, no, no. Every Christian has a gift that the spirit of God has given them.” And I was like, what?

And that was the first time in my life that I was like, wait, not just pastors and not just the people that can host you in their home that are super generous. So there was the average Christian gift is hospitality, and then the pastor gift is preaching, I guess. And then that was the first time in my life that I ever encountered the idea that every Christian has a gift and then God has given us those gifts to bless other people and primarily the church. So that was the first time I left ever encountered that.

And as I have gone to school, as I have studied it, I don’t share every view that this teacher had. But he really opened my eyes and really blessed me because that was the first time I started thinking about it. And then it was probably three or four, five years before I kind of figured out what I would say my gifts are. And it’s a funny conversation because we all think we’re good at things, and then I think it isn’t until someone else tells you that, “Hey, I see this in you,” that I think, oh, actually that might be true. So I remember thinking, I’m really good at sports, but no one has ever told me I’m good at sports. So Luke tells me I’m not good at sports. So then I’m like, maybe I’m not gifted in sports.

Luke Friesen:

Maybe you’re not an athlete.

Fredy Orozco:

Or maybe just not an athlete. So anyways, long kind of answer. But as I look at my life, as I ended up in pastoral ministry, I would say the prophetic gift, the gift of encouragement would be the two most significant ones in my life. So prophecy, by that I mean preaching, teaching the Bible. So I’d say teaching as well maybe. And then encouragement. Routinely I’m able to give a timely word. Also sometimes don’t give a timely word occasionally, often say dumb things. But honestly, that’s how we stumble. God gives us a gift and then we misuse it sometimes. So anyways, that’s been kind of my journey on this topic.

Andrew Marcus:

It’s fascinating because I feel like a lot of people, it’s if they want to be humble, they don’t want to say, “Hey, I’m really gifted.” It’s a hard balance of like, oh no, everyone has gifts, so don’t be afraid to explore it and figure out what they are so you can use them for his glory. But it’s a tough thing to navigate, I think. And I think I love how you say it’s important that we have community to speak it into us, too, not say, oh, I’m really good at this and that. Well, actually that’s not true. You’re not. Let’s walk through some of the spiritual gifts here and unpack, okay, so we know why it’s important to talk about it. What are the spiritual gifts?

Fredy Orozco:

The passage that I have found the most helpful today is out of 1 Peter 4. So if you have a Bible with you, you’re welcome to turn there with me since we have some friends in the crowd here. But 1 Peter 4 I think has just the most helpful kind of breakdown of what God gives us. So starting in verse 10, “As each has received a gift, use it to serve one another as good stewards of God’s varied grace.” So that’s that idea. Everyone has it. Everyone has a gift, at least one, potentially more. Whoever speaks as one who speaks oracles of God, whoever serves as one who serves by the strength that God supplies. And then the verse goes on to talk about the motivation behind it. We do this for the glory of God. So the reason I love this passage is because it broadens kind of the definition, and I’ve been around people that define gifts super narrow.

So unless it’s explicitly stated in scripture, so Romans 12, 1 Corinthians 12, then it’s not a gift. And I’m like, I don’t hold that conviction. I don’t think the Bible is exhaustive on what gifts are, but then I also don’t find it super helpful when people say basically anything you’re good at is a gift. Because I think some things are hard to do in a way that blesses other people. So when someone is like, “I have great hand-eye coordination.” I’m like, “I would say then you’re not a NARP. Bless you.” But that’s not the gift. If you’re able to use that then to coach someone, then the gift isn’t actually the athleticism. The gift would be, I think, encouragement or maybe something about teaching. So I like this passage because it says, if you talk good, that’s from the Lord. You should talk in a way that gives people the words of God. And then if you serve good, you should serve in a way that glorifies God.

So then that kind of shapes my definition. So I kind of say when I think what a gift is, I would say a gift is anything that you can do in a way that blesses other people and glorifies God. So if you can’t check those two boxes, then it’s not a gift. You can be really good at it. It could be a natural inclination. It can be a talent or ability, but I’m like, it needs to be something that you are good at, not just subjectively, but objectively. Other people have said, “We see this in you,” and it helps other people glorify God. So I think that passage has been the most helpful for me in that way.

Andrew Marcus:

That’s so good. I love that. When we think about gifts, we think, okay, there’s obviously passages that have very explicit this, this, this and that. What would you say to someone, what is not a gift? Is there a way to understand, okay, that is not a gift. I guess just the parameters would be it’s not glorifying God, it’s not serving basically? Yeah.

Fredy Orozco:

Yeah, I think so. So just things that I think there are some things that we are good at that I wouldn’t consider a gift. Or maybe more accurately when someone is gifted, we can abuse that gift, we can misuse it. So I think we can use something in a way that it’s working against the gift. So when I think of my own life, so the way I’ve worked as a pastor or the kind of husband I am, the kind of father I am, I think one of the most persistent sins in my life is criticism like a critical spirit. And I’m like, that is interesting because I would say one of my gifts that I have seen in myself and my wife has affirmed, people I serve with have affirmed, is the gift of encouragement. Fred, you’re a joy to be around. You say the right thing at the right moment, and you’re able to just lift people up. But the same dude that gives an encouraging word can cut people down.

And so then I’m like, I think one of the ways that either we abuse a gift is we go in the opposite direction. So rather than encouraging people, I’m overly critical. Or we take something God has given us and then use it for our own glory. So if someone’s really good with words, really encouraging, and they use that to manipulate people, to gain a following, to get things out of people that they want, then I’m like, I don’t think you could call that a gift. So it’s not a gift in the sense that using other people by tricking them with your words is not a gift, but you’re co-opting the actual gift of encouragement. So I think when I think of what’s not a gift, that’s where my mind goes to, when we corrupt a gift into the opposite intended effect. It’s not blessing other people, it’s not glorifying God.

Luke Friesen:

The difference between someone, let’s say someone before Christ is a known leader or a known encourager on a team and then becomes a Christian, is it usually automatically one for one? You’re encourager already, Christ saves you. Now you’re encourager in Christ. And so it’s like, does that make sense?

Fredy Orozco:

Yeah, yeah.

Luke Friesen:

Does that always happen? Or someone’s naturally good at something and then now you get the spirit and now you’re better at it?

Fredy Orozco:

Yeah, I think so. I think more often than not, that’s kind of what it is. So there’s a pastor I used to serve with named Greg back in the day, and he always said, it’s like the spirit takes what you already have and then just magnifies it. So I think that’s maybe a little bit overstated because I’m like, there are some things that I kind of struggled to tell the difference.

So a really kind of formative story for me was when I was in Bible school, I went to Columbia Bible College and I was in a worship arts class, just part of my degree. And there was a young man in that class that was studying to be a worship pastor, and he shared one of his frustrations with worship leading was that one of the feedbacks he most consistently got was, “Brother, you’re like, you are gifted as a worship leader.” And he would always be frustrated. He was like, “Bro, you don’t know how hard I’ve worked to learn guitar.” He’s like, “Yeah, God gave me singing. But then I went to vocal coaching every week, the last decade.” He’s like, “I have played guitar two hours a night every single night, four or five nights a week since high school.”

And this dude was, I think he was in his mid-20s. So he’s like, I am eight years into this, 10 years into this, vocal coaching, guitar. He’s like, so when someone says, “Oh, look what the gift is,” so then I think there’s a way that we kind of misuse that language of God just magnifies something you’re already good at. I think, yes, that does happen, but then I think God also takes the passions you have and then empowers you in that direction, blesses our work, if you will.

Luke Friesen:

Yeah, how God magnifies that. And he did that through hard work in that worship leader. So I think there’s actually, I don’t know if anybody follows college football, but there’s this running back right now for Boise State. His name is Ashlon. No.

Fredy Orozco:

Yeah, something like Jeffrey?

Luke Friesen:

Jeffrey? I don’t know. Whatever. The guy is-

Fredy Orozco:

But he’s a baller.

Luke Friesen:

… an absolute freak. He’s already rushed for over 1000 yards in five games, which is very impressive. But they asked him, it was like, “Why do you do this?” Or asked him questions and he gave this answer. He’s like, “I’m a Christian disguised as an All-American athlete.” And so here’s this gifting he has of being physically, genetically better than every single person. And now he’s like, “I’m going to use this to magnify the Lord.” Because it seems like that’s not a spiritual gift, his physical athleticism, but here he gets to go on national television and use a speaking gift to then share. And so it’s in the spiritual gifts, he’s leveraging the things that the Lord has already put in his life to then magnify and make him known.

So I think there’s not these distinct lines of that’s a spiritual gift, leave it there, and then that’s a physical gift. Leave that there. It’s like we’re whole people and we are physical and spiritual at the same time. So I think that gets a little confusing sometimes when you bifurcate them too much.

Fredy Orozco:

Oh, for sure.

Luke Friesen:

I think that’s helpful in thinking about the spiritual gifts is like, well, it kind of goes together. It’s not like these odd things that are just way out there. If that makes sense.

Fredy Orozco:

That’s good. That’s a good point. I think that when you look at something like that, what I’m trying to emphasize is if this young man, he is a phenomenal athlete, but I’m like, what in his life, that athleticism is giving him a unique context where I’m like, this guy has access to so many people that I never could reach. He’s in a locker room, he’s playing these teams. Anything he says carries automatically more weight to a whole bunch of people. So then if this young man uses a speaking gift or a serving gift, I’m like, I would say that is the gift.

But then I agree with you, if you separate them too distinctly, then you kind of ignore that God blessed him that way. That dude, yeah, he’s obviously worked really hard to get to where he is, but I’m like, a lot of dudes work really hard.

Luke Friesen:

Totally. Yes.

Fredy Orozco:

And they wash out in high school, or they work super hard and they have a career ending injury. So you have a young man who worked crazy hard, has a unique context, and then what I’m trying to say is the athleticism isn’t the main thing, that God blessed him in a unique way to give him a unique opportunity to then either speak well or serve well in a way that blesses other people and glorifies God.

Luke Friesen:

Totally. And so I think it’s just so beautiful for the Christian. It’s like the spiritual gift is not just for inside the church building or church ministry. It can be out there and vice versa. It’s all for the glory of God, whether it’s physical, spiritual, mental, whatever it is. It’s not just, okay, I’m going to give God my spiritual giftings and then the physical giftings I have, that’s for me.

It’s like, no, no, no. All of it, all of it is for the glorifying of God. So it’s like how do you use all of your giftings, not just the spiritual? And I think that’s also sometimes what we have a problem with is we don’t want to be brought up too high, but also we want the humble brag. So that’s kind of hard. But we don’t think about how do we use our physical giftings to serve the Lord as well? We’re like, I need to figure out my spiritual gifts. I can’t serve without it. But what are you good at? What do you like to do? Let’s start there. Let’s work our way there. And so I think it’s frustrating sometimes when it’s like, I haven’t figured out my spiritual gifts, so I can’t serve. It’s like, well, that’s not the point.

Fredy Orozco:

Yeah. Amen.

Andrew Marcus:

Is there a big difference between, someone wrote in a question, just the difference between spiritual gift and talent? Because there is this natural we’re talking about with sports and athletes and stuff. I am not athletic at all.

Luke Friesen:

Not at all.

Fredy Orozco:

A NARP? N-A-R-P?

Luke Friesen:

I thought you played ball.

Andrew Marcus:

Well, I played basketball in high school, but I mostly warmed the bench and encouraged as the gift of –

Luke Friesen:

That’s good.

Andrew Marcus:

I had the gift of encouragement.

Fredy Orozco:

That was my ministry as well.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah, for sure. Encouraging the bench, all the people on the bench. But there’s a big difference between spiritual gifts and natural talents. How do you understand what’s what?

Fredy Orozco:

The idea of talents comes from Matthew 25. It shows up in Luke as well, but the most famous one is that Matthew 25, the parable the talents. And the punchline is the story is basically there’s a master. He gives talents, five talents, three talents, one talent to different servants and then expects them to use those talents to double the master’s money, to benefit, to grow the investment. And at the end, regardless of the talent level, he gives the same commendation, “Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over little. I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.” And the dude who turns five into 10, the dude who turns two into four to get the exact same commendation, it makes no difference.

So when we look at the way God has made all of us, I think every person, I would put this in the realm of personality. Every single person has personalities and passions that I think are unique to us. There’s a lot of overlap between a room of this size. There’d be a lot of people that are passionate about justice or deep relationships, but every person has a unique blend of those things.

And when I think of a talent, I think that’s something that comes natural that I don’t think necessarily leads to God glorifying. It’s a natural thing that helps other people or that can be used to help other people, can be used to benefit yourself. So if you have someone that is as a natural talent, they’re a very linear thinker, great with numbers, there are some careers that person’s going to excel in. They could be an engineer, they could be an accountant, and they’ll do well. They could go into stock trading and if they understand patterns, they might do super, super well. So that is a talent that I think they’re expected to then double. God gives us things, God helps us be good at things.

But then the point of the talent isn’t so much to glorifying God. It’s the using of that talent. Where when I think of the spiritual gift, kind of the distinction that I would try to draw out is the spiritual gift is explicitly designed to glorify God. So when you look at that passage, 1 Peter 4, 1 Corinthians 12, Romans 12, each one of them explicitly says something about using this for the sake of God, for the glory of God.

Luke Friesen:

For the building up of the church.

Fredy Orozco:

Exactly. Something like that. So I’m like, when I look at a talent, I’m like, it can help other people, but I think part of the talent is simply stewarding it in a way that you grow that ability. So as someone who has a high relational capacity, I’m like, then you should be around more people. That’s a good use of your talent. If you’re like, I’m a high capacity person, so I watch a lot of TV. I’m like, what?

Luke Friesen:

I watch a lot of TV shows.

Fredy Orozco:

Yeah. Yeah, because I have a capacity for a lot of TV shows. I’m like, what? No. You should be using… If you can handle 10 tasks at a time. I’m like, I can barely chew gum and walk. That person, I’m like, I would love to have that talent. So I think that’s something that you grow. It helps you be more effective in whatever you’re doing. But gifts, I think explicitly are connected to that glorifying God. I think glorifying God is when people look at what doing and rather than focusing on, wow, look at what you’re doing. They say, wow, look at what God is doing through you, or look at what God is doing in this group of people.

So to tie it back to Luke’s illustration, because I think that’s super helpful for drawing that distinction. So that running back I think has a talent. God blessed him in a very unique way. I love football, but I could never do what that guy’s doing. I’m like, even if I train every single day for the next 10 years, or even if I started training at 16, I do not have the talents that this young guy has. But then I still don’t think that’s the gift. The gift in his life is going to be the way he speaks or the way he serves in a way that when people see that, you’re like, wow, God is working through you. God is blessing us through you.

So even a future NFL guy, his gift might be super ordinary in that what if he is just the most hospitable dude? He uses this, he leverages it, and he’s just like, his dorm room is always open and people can pull up. And then he buys the big house with the family style seating for 30 just so he is like, any teammate can come over anytime. I want to be around people, God has given me a high relational capacity.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah, that’s good. And this is a question that I actually have been wondering about and was talking to someone about this yesterday. If someone gets a spiritual gift or a gift, could it also be taken away? Or if someone gets something, they have that gift forever. If someone prays for healing, someone gets healed, does that mean they can start a healing ministry? Can a gift be given and taken?

Luke Friesen:

Yeah. I would-

Andrew Marcus:

God could do whatever he wants.

Luke Friesen:

Yeah, God could do whatever he wants.

Fredy Orozco:

God can do whatever he wants.

Andrew Marcus:

I’ve heard of a pastor who prayed for someone and someone got healed miraculously, but he felt very prompted to pray for healing. And then he didn’t really have that prompt and that passion with other people. And he felt like maybe that was just a moment where God just gave him something for that person and then he might not have it again. I’ve heard of that.

Luke Friesen:

Yeah, that can totally happen. I mean, you’ve heard of if someone just teaches a passage and people’s eyes are open to see descriptions, to see who Jesus is, and it’s like, well, they obviously had the gift of teaching in that moment, but maybe they’re like, yeah, but I’m not a teacher. I am not going to teach. I hate talking in front of people or whatever. So maybe it’s just a one-time thing. So I’m like, the same spirit is in all of us. It’s not like he’s limited to giving giftings to certain people. He can do what he wants. So I don’t know if you want to push back, Fred.

Fredy Orozco:

No, no. I guess I’m struggling with that, the idea that God would take it away. So I think when I see some of the passages that describe what gifts are, we’re told that the spirit gives him, so I’m just looking at Romans 12. So verse six, “Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them.” So I’m like, you have very clear, the spirit gives them. 1 Corinthians 12:7 says kind of the same thing. Everyone has a manifestation of the spirit for the common good. I do not know of a verse that says, if thou failest, I will withdraw the gift.

So I think there are moments in Christian lives where people do miraculous things. When people do something like someone who doesn’t know their languages and speaks in a different language in a moment, or someone who is the most timid person, but then in this one moment just gives a direct prophetic word. So I think every Christian is capable of tremendous, miraculous things because all of us have the spirit. And Romans 8, it says, “The spirit that we have inside of us is the spirit that resurrected Jesus from the grave.” So I think every Christian can and will do something amazing in their life. The one time doing of something does not make it a gift.

So I think one of the things that maybe I didn’t add in my first definition, but this question kind of prompts it. So initially I said it’s something that you use for common good that glorifies God. I would say it’s something that you persistently do for common good that glorifies God. So when I think of someone like our previously pastor, Jeff Bucknam, that man was gifted in preaching or teaching. And I’m like, there were some sermons he preached that I was like, I did not love it as much. I know, I’m sorry. I’m sorry. He’s not listening.

Luke Friesen:

No, I think he follows.

Andrew Marcus:

He’s actually going to be on the show. He’s going to be on the show soon, actually, when he is here in November.

Fredy Orozco:

No. Okay. Then scrub that, scrub that. Don’t say… Dangit.

Andrew Marcus:

So I’ll tell him that you said… No, I’ll tell him specifically. We’ll get that clip and we’ll in in the middle of the interview.

Fredy Orozco:

So what I actually said was most of his sermons were 10 out 10. Occasionally he would have a nine out 10.

Andrew Marcus:

I won’t show him that part.

Fredy Orozco:

Yeah, okay. But the point I’m trying to make is when you look, how would we speak of his preaching ministry> where I’m like, the man was gifted. So I’m like, I never heard him preach a bad sermon. There were some that were way better, some that impacted me more.

And by better, I mean impacted me more. I don’t mean more exegetically sound. But I’m like, there is something about that. There are a few people that I’ve listened to that I’m just like, to use more charismatic language, the anointing on them is, I don’t know if the guy can preach a bad sermon. Every time he opens the passage, every time he opens the Bible. So when I think of people in my, John Piper is a guy who I listen to a lot of his preaching. David Platt also, that I’m just like, I’ve never heard a sermon that they gave that I didn’t walk away thinking, man, God is greater than I could ever understand, and I owe him my obedience, my praise, my thanksgiving. And I’m like, what would you call that? There were some sermons I’m sure that were just okay. But when I see something like that, that’s what I think gifting is.

And obviously, that would be a speaking version. But I think there are the service versions too, where I’m just one of the ladies that mentored my wife before her and I met when she was a high school kid, had I think that the gift of, I would say hospitality. There was something about her. People were just drawn to her. And my wife Rebecca talks about we would walk into Taco Bell and she’s like, people would just come up to her and say, “What is different about you?” And it was just this very average-looking old lady. And she was like, I serve the Lord and he’s changed my life. And she would say kind of tiny comments. I wouldn’t call that a teaching gift. She didn’t say anything substantial. But people were just drawn to her. And people would like, “Can I meet with you? Can I go for a coffee with you?” Strangers would ask her.

So I look at something like that and I’m like, if you’re able to do something consistently, I’m like, I don’t think that’s human ability. I just don’t think people are that consistent. If you’re able to do something consistently, I’m like, I think God’s doing it.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah. Well, hey, thank you so much, Fredy and Luke for being with us today. And thank you for all of you being in the room. Can we give it up for our pastors here? Amazing. God bless you guys.

Hey, thanks so much for joining us today. For more great content, check out THE INDOUBT SHOW on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Music, or wherever you stream your podcast. We hope you enjoyed it today. Feel free to check out indoubt.com. We have some great resources available to you. Have an awesome day.