Ep. 040: Dealing with Disagreements

*Below is an edited transcription of the audio.

Speaker 1:

Welcome to the indoubt Podcast, where we explore the challenging topics that young adults often face. Each week we talk with guests who help answer questions of faith, life, and culture, connecting them to our daily experiences and God’s word. For more info on indoubt, visit indoubt.ca or indoubt.com.

Isaac Dagneau:

Hey, welcome to indoubt. My name is Isaac. I’m one of the hosts at indoubt, as well as one of the pastors at North Valley Baptist Church in Mission, British Columbia, Canada. Happy that you’re here with us today as we engage a topic that will never go old, at least until Jesus comes back, and that topic is disagreements.

Isaac Dagneau:

To join us this week is Christian counselor, Tom Brooks. We actually had this conversation with Tom some time ago on indoubt and we want to share it with you again. Again, the question of how to disagree well is never old and, therefore, we want to play this episode again to gain insight from a Christian counselor how we can disagree to the glory of God. It’s great to be with Christian counselor, Tom Brooks, thanks for coming on the show.

Tom Brooks:

My pleasure.

Isaac Dagneau:

The title of our episode is called Dealing with Disagreement. I feel like in some senses, a lot of people are just a little bit afraid to disagree because they’re not sure how they’re supposed to do that, especially in our cultural context that we’re in. So we want to obviously learn how to disagree and how to engage others that we have differing viewpoints in a godly, in a righteous way.

Isaac Dagneau:

The fact is that we, as Christians, we need to know how to disagree. The reason why is because we are going to meet other brothers and sisters in Christ, and we’re going to have these open fist issues that aren’t necessarily essential to the faith, but we might disagree, and that’s important that we know how to still be family, yet disagree.

Isaac Dagneau:

At the same time, we are going to have to disagree with all the other worldviews and religions in the world because we believe in exclusive faith as well. So there’s disagreements and then there’s all the little disagreements like stuff with your spouse, friends, work, all these different things as well. We need to learn how to disagree well.

Isaac Dagneau:

The fact is we’re all unique. We all have different talents and positions. It’s silly to think that disagreement can be dodged somehow, that we were all going to fit perfectly. So it’s inevitable, disagreement is inevitable. So why don’t you first, Tom, briefly… Actually, you know what, for those who have never heard of you, why don’t you just quickly give a little bit of who you are, but then you can morph that into why do people disagree in just general? Why do people struggle with disagreement?

Tom Brooks:

That’s a huge question. I grew up in the church. My dad was a pastor, so my mom told me that when I was five years old, I accepted Jesus into my life. I personally believe that my real conversion was when I was about 19. That’s when I really understood salvation, and healing, and being set free, and all that kind of stuff. Then by the time I was 29, I really accepted God’s grace.

Tom Brooks:

I think when we look at struggle and struggling with conflict is I’m not going to agree with every single person in my life. I think one of the things I help people with… and believers, non-believers, it doesn’t really matter, and you’re absolutely right, conflict is inevitable. It’s going to happen. So how do we deal with it?

Tom Brooks:

Many people run from conflict. Part of that reason is they’re afraid that they’re not going to stop. They’re not really trusting themselves. Once I start being angry, I’m going to just keep going, or once I start saying this, I’m not going to stop. It can also mean it’s going to ruin a friendship. It’s going to ruin a relationship. So we struggle with how do I say this? What do I say? How do I perceive this?

Tom Brooks:

First of all, I think it’s really important to understand that how does God confront me? Jesus, when Jesus came, he came to start a revolution. He came to start a revolution with believers. Those who had God, those who already had God in their life, he came to say, “I want you to think about this. Why do you believe what you believe?”

Tom Brooks:

I think when we stop for a second and look at people, we’re all in the same boat. Really whether we’re believers or not, we have to ask ourselves, why do we believe what we believe? When I’m in conflict with someone… and I’m not going to share anything here that I haven’t gone through myself because obviously growing up in the church, there’s always been this… Matthew 5:37 says, “Let your yes be yes, and let your no be no.” It’s okay to say yes in church, but it’s not okay to say no. There’s some ungodly, un-Christian not thing to say no.

Isaac Dagneau:

Quotes around that obviously.

Tom Brooks:

Exactly, yes, we would prefer you say yes. So you’re going to be on the worship team. You’re going to be coming to the men’s group. If we say, no, it’s like, “Well, what’s the matter with you?” Yet God, he put that verse in there for a reason. That we have that privilege, we have that advantage or whatever to say no. So when people do this and they’re in disagreement with us, how do we handle that and how do we handle our own disagreement with others?

Tom Brooks:

One of the things that I think is really important, we need to separate the who from the do. What I mean by that is separate who the person is from what they’re doing. I’m going to, again, bring my own personal relationship in with God is that thankful he does that with me. When God looks at me, he sees who I am as a person. He certainly sees who I am in Christ, but he will never agree with everything I do and say, but that doesn’t change his acceptance of me. That doesn’t change his love for me. That is always solid.

Tom Brooks:

If I’m going to be honest with myself, and this is where I believe disagreement begins, if I’m going to be honest with myself, I’m going to look in the mirror and go, “Okay, I know who I am, but I certainly don’t agree with everything I do and say.” So that’s important in relationship is that we’re looking at who we are as people.

Tom Brooks:

For instance, I’m going to use some examples that Jesus had. The woman that was caught in adultery. Did he ever point out, “Oh, you’re a homewrecker. I don’t want you selling your body for sex anymore. I wish you wouldn’t do…” He didn’t do that. In fact, he didn’t use condemnation or a way to judge her to cause her to change. But he wouldn’t be in agreement with her lifestyle.

Tom Brooks:

I think in society, we have this idea that if you’re not in agreement with me, you don’t accept me. That’s a misnomer. Unfortunately for us growing up, we get judged based on our behavior. Let’s be honest. My report cards growing up were always, “Tom would do much better in class if he would stop goofing off or if he would pay more attention.” Then my dad would slap me on the back of the head and just tell me to knock it off and stop doing that.

Tom Brooks:

But the teacher didn’t really know me. Didn’t understand my behavior, took my behavior and judged me as being disruptive or unattentive. But in actuality, I had a real friendly, humorous value personality. So all our years growing up, we’re judged on that. I think in the church, we are judged pretty harshly-

Isaac Dagneau:

On our behavior, on the doing.

Tom Brooks:

Yes, the doing. I like to make a word picture of a tree. The trunk of the tree is who we are. Our roots are in God, our roots are in the word. Everything, our life comes from God. Then it helps us become more of who we are. The fruit that’s on the tree, let’s be honest, is not always good fruit. It’s not always good fruit.

Tom Brooks:

I know that. I know there’s smelly fruit on that tree and I know there’s great fruit on that tree. So when I look at myself, I need to separate who I am from what I’m doing. I want to then if I’m going to be in a disagreement with somebody else… Let’s just start in the church. Let’s not even talk about coworkers and all that stuff. How well do we disagree in the church?

Tom Brooks:

If we could learn to do that better, I think the world would look and go, “Wow, I want that. I want some of that.” Even Paul was talking about quarreling. “I want to give you more, but you guys haven’t even got through the quarreling stage yet.” In 2000 years, I don’t know if we’ve really changed a lot.

Tom Brooks:

I want people to yes, understand I will never be in agreement with you in absolutely everything, and all your behavior, but that doesn’t mean I don’t love you. That doesn’t mean I don’t want to be in a relationship with you. That doesn’t mean that I’m judging you. We need to separate. I can’t judge you. What gives me the right to judge you? But I can be scrutinizing your behavior. I’m going to give you the same privilege in my life.

Tom Brooks:

Because in reality, even whether I’m a believer or not a believer, God confronts me with my behavior. If I’m going to be in disagreement with someone’s lifestyle, that doesn’t mean I have to reject them as a person. I, if I’m going to be honest with them, I’m going to say, “You know what? I struggle with this and this. I’m not even happy with my own behavior.”

Tom Brooks:

I think what happens with disagreement, and probably why some people take it the wrong way is because I’m coming from a place of having it all together. I’m coming from a place that there is no smelly fruit on my tree. When somebody does that to me, I’m feeling condemned. I believe I’m being put down, or judged, or that kind of thing. The Bible’s very clear, “Do not judge,” Matthew seven. “Judge not, or you’re going to be judged.” Only God can do that. Only God can be the judge.

Tom Brooks:

When it comes to looking at someone, I need to explain to them, “Just because I don’t agree with what you’re doing, or what you’re saying, or how you’re saying it, that’s just the fruit on your tree.” I think when we are talking about these things and we get a strong reaction back, I think what we need to do or what would be important to do is to begin to ask questions.

Tom Brooks:

“Why are you responding so harshly?” Or, “Why are you so aggressive towards me right now?” Or, “I’m curious what you heard me say.” So that we can get some feedback without us, or even myself jumping to a conclusion about the disagreement. Because I want everyone to know that I care about them. I want everyone to know that I love them.

Tom Brooks:

In reality, what is my goal for confrontation? If my goal is to simply prove that I’m right and you’re wrong, it’s not going to turn out well. It’s never going to turn out well. Jesus was confrontational. Go to John chapter eight when he was talking to those that believed in him. If you go through that whole chapter, starting at verse 31, he was constantly hammering the message, “Who’s your father, who’s your father, who’s your father?”

Tom Brooks:

They kept saying, “Abraham’s our father.” Then, “No, God’s our father.” Then Jesus says, “No, no, no, actually the devil is your father.” It’s like that is really harsh. But he was seeing it in a way that you guys don’t really believe. Because I’m not seeing that fruit on the tree. I’m not condemning you. I’m just saying, “Where’s the fruit, where’s the evidence?” Honestly, I have days in my life where the evidence isn’t that great. I have days in my life where the evidence is, “Okay, it’s been a good day in God.”

Tom Brooks:

One of the stories, and I want to give a personal story. I was working with somebody whose daughter decided to at 19 move in with a guy who was 36. The parents, good Christian family, they did not know how to handle this because they were like, “We don’t want to talk to her anymore. That’s it. She’s made her decision.”

Tom Brooks:

I went, “Hold on a second. We need to disagree well.” I said, “You know your daughter. Who is she? She’s been in church. She’s just lost her way right now, but who is she really?” They began to say, “Well, she is loving. She is generous. She is kind hearted.” “Okay, so that’s who she is. By separating who she is from what she’s doing, you’re never going to condone what she’s doing. Are you ever going to agree with her moving in with this guy?” “Never.”

Tom Brooks:

So they got together with the two of them. It was very, very difficult. It wasn’t easy, but they kept saying to themselves, “Look, we know who you are. We love you. We care about you. We’re in your corner. But please do not expect us to agree with everything you’re doing and saying right now.”

Tom Brooks:

The interesting thing is it actually had a tremendous effect on their daughter. She actually had tears in her eyes and said, “Thank you.” She didn’t change. She didn’t stop living like that. But she all of a sudden understood, “There’s this love that I have for you, that I’m not going to agree with everything you do and say, but it doesn’t change the love I have for you.”

Tom Brooks:

So I think if people understand that, this is why I’m seeing what you’re saying. Let’s be honest, unbelieving coworkers and stuff, they find out you’re a Christian, they’re going to tell you what you’re doing wrong. “You laughed at that joke.” Or, “Oh, you said a little bit of an off-color this and that and the other thing.” “Oh, you swore.”

Tom Brooks:

It’s like they’re examining the fruit that’s on our tree. I’m okay with that. I’m totally okay with that. But I do explain to them, “Look, you’re doing to me what I want to do to you. Separate who the person is from what I’m doing. Just because I’m a believer, just because I’m a Christian, just because I know that God loves me, it doesn’t give me the right or the privilege to say what you’re doing is this and that and the other. Because yes, I will never be able to agree with what you’re doing and saying. Please don’t put me in that box.”

Isaac Dagneau:

Yeah, that’s really good. I think going back a little bit, just to when you were talking about what is your goal in confrontation? What is your goal in disagreement? You said, “Is it just to prove yourself?” I remember before we are having this conversation now, we had got together and you brought up a point that I found is fascinating. It was so simple, yet it’s just profound.

Isaac Dagneau:

You were almost touching it, but just to be able to explain to listeners the idea that Jesus had a goal. So every single confrontation, disagreement he made, whether it was cleaning out the temple, talking with the woman at the well, whatever it was, his goal was to obviously reconcile man to God, to obey his father. That was his goal. So everything he did was for that goal. When you said in the same way, we need to have a goal about reconciliation with others and restoration like that. I thought that was profound. Elaborate on that.

Tom Brooks:

Yeah, exactly. If we’re just going to share our feelings or we’re just going to, like I say, be in a disagreement with no goal in mind, then it just turns out to be all out war. But our goal is really I want to show you the love that I’ve experienced. Really for me, whenever I’m in conflict or I’m in confrontation, it is I want you to know me in a deeper, more meaningful way, and I want to get to know you in a deeper, more meaningful way.

Tom Brooks:

As long as my goal is to point you to Jesus, point you to what God has given me in my life, that is the deepest thing that I have. That’s the deepest thing that I can share. God never lets me off the hook. He’s never going to let you or anybody else off the hook regardless. You’re right. Jesus, he really wanted to point everyone back to the father always.

Tom Brooks:

When you look at when he confronted people and he says, “I came to bring a sword between father and son, and mother and daughter,” what is he saying? Well, he’s saying, “All relationship is important, but it’s not as important as the relationship you have with me.”

Isaac Dagneau:

That’s big.

Tom Brooks:

Yes, it’s very big. Again, not saying that you have to reject these people. No, it’s just the relationship is more important. Yeah, absolutely.

Isaac Dagneau:

It’s really good. Because if you are having a disagreement or conflict with say a non-Christian coworker that you’re with, if your goal is to draw this person closer to Jesus, and they’ve done something, or they’ve disagreed with you, or you’re disagreeing with them, and your selfishness, I guess your sinful heart wants to just prove them wrong or fight or whatever. If your goal is to show them the father, then the best thing you might do is obviously forgive them.

Isaac Dagneau:

Like Peter asks Jesus, “How many times should I forgive my brother?” “70 times seven,” infinitum. That might be the best thing for a non-believer. If you forgive them, then they’ll probably be a little bit shocked. Like, “Whoa, they’re not trying to prove themselves. They’re forgiving me. What is this? How can this person forgive so freely?”

Isaac Dagneau:

That’s slowly pointing them to the Father. You have that kind of disagreement, but then there’s your disagreement with your spouse, or your loved one, or your best friend that’s a believer, what can you do then? Well, still forgive, still point them to the Father that way.

Tom Brooks:

Absolutely. Jesus was very accepting of who people are. Here he is being nailed to the cross and the first thing he says is, “Father, forgive them.” You look at that and is that how we are approaching people? Is that how we are approaching a non-believer or a believer? It doesn’t matter in the church or outside of the church. Are we saying are we already there? I am not holding this against you.

Tom Brooks:

Everything Paul says, “Everything must be covered in love.” Love is I hold no record of wrong. In a marriage relationship, in a family, it’s all messy. I don’t expect my kids to agree with everything I do and say. My dad always said, “As long as you live under my roof, you’ll do as I say,” but that doesn’t work so much anymore.

Tom Brooks:

It is, “I know you. I understand you. I accept who you are as my son or my daughter. But please don’t expect mom and I to agree with everything you do.” Because kids nowadays will say, “If you loved me, you would let me go to this party.” Or, “If you really accepted me, you would let me hang out with this guy or this girl.”

Tom Brooks:

No, that’s not true. There’s a falsehood in that. Just like in society, it’s, “If you really accepted me, you would be okay with me saying this and this.” No, that’s not true. I can still accept you, but not agree with what you’re doing and saying. Everything has to be covered in love. It has to be I’m not holding this against you. I’m not your judge. But we’re living in community or we’re living in…

Tom Brooks:

Paul was very clear about diversity. There needs to be unity within diversity. I don’t want you, Isaac, to be like me. However, if we’re going to be in friendship or we’re going to be in community as Christians, as believers, we’re not going to agree at times with something I’ve done and said and you’ve done and said.

Tom Brooks:

I pray in church that you would come to me, and you would leave your gift at the altar, and you would come and be reconciled with me. It doesn’t mean, “Okay, Tom, I’m going to change so that I can make you happy.” No, I don’t want that. I want you to say, “Tom, I know who you are. You’re a great guy. I know you love God. I know you care about me. You said something yesterday that really hurt me, or offended me, or I’m not quite sure. I just need to talk to you about the fruit that’s on your tree. I just need to talk to you about your behavior, about your words.”

Tom Brooks:

Why can’t we do that? I’m saying that is the goal because I already know your heart. So that, to me, really helps.

Isaac Dagneau:

You got to be over abundant in mercy and love. That needs to be the power of your disagreement needs to be covered in that love. I’ve done a lot of study through Jude lately. Obviously, the main point of Jude is that he is telling the first century church to contend for the faith because there’s false teachers that have come in and are perverting the grace.

Isaac Dagneau:

Near the end of the letter, he gives this call to persevere. It’s split into two halves. The first half is what you do in your own faith and building up. But then he says, “This is how you need to respond to others.” I found it very applicable to what we’re talking about. He says, “Have mercy on those who doubt.”

Isaac Dagneau:

I think that was very powerful because what it shows is that if I have a Christian brother or sister, who’s starting to doubt, starting to do things that I’m not agreeing with, my first thought in my mind come up is being really concerned about them. Where are they going? What’s going on? I might even gossip about them or something like this person’s doubting God or whatever.

Isaac Dagneau:

But yet Jude is saying, “You’ve got to have mercy on them.” Even in a little later on, he even talks about those that don’t even know Jesus, those who are completely unbelievers. Says, “Have mercy on them. But be in fear because you don’t want to get caught up in what they’re doing, of course, but have mercy.”

Isaac Dagneau:

I found that very profound, that even to those who are doubting, that are might even be starting to believe in false gospels, and who aren’t even believing in Jesus, Jude is calling us to have mercy on them, have mercy. Don’t get angry. Don’t fight them. Don’t get worried. Have mercy. That’s powerful.

Tom Brooks:

Exactly. I think it does really boil down to relationship, not where a relationship with other people is greater than our relationship with Jesus. No, our relationship with Jesus is the most important. We never know if we disagree with someone, if that wakes them up, if that like, “Whoa, I never thought about that before.”

Tom Brooks:

Because let’s be honest. We’ve all been slaves to sin. Still every day, you and I wake up going, “Okay, I’m giving my life to Jesus again. I am not going to follow what my mind would tell me to do, what my emotions would want to drive me to do.” Is that any different than anybody else? It’s just our spirit has been awakened. We are no longer slaves. We are now sons and daughters.

Tom Brooks:

What message would that be to someone? Because everyone who doesn’t believe is enslaved to those things that they just want to feel like doing, or they just believe that they’re doing. To say that Christians are just narrow-minded. No, we’re actually more free. We’re actually more free to know what we’re doing and why we’re doing it than other people.

Isaac Dagneau:

We’re free enough in Christ, so that when someone disagrees with us, we’ll be able to take that in a godly and righteous way.

Tom Brooks:

Absolutely, yes.

Isaac Dagneau:

We’re out of time now, Tom, but I so enjoyed that. I thank you so much for coming on the show again and I hope to have you back soon again.

Tom Brooks:

My pleasure.

Isaac Dagneau:

In Ephesians one, verses eight through 10, we are blessed by God with an understanding of what he is going to do when space, time, and matter as we know it come to their completion. He is preparing to bring together all things in and under Jesus. This fact plays an important role in our own hearts when we are in a disagreement.

Isaac Dagneau:

Think about it. If every day is being carried to a specific goal, where everything and everyone will come under Jesus, then it reveals to us that all that matters ultimately is where we and everything around us stands in relation to Jesus. Therefore in our lives, we really should be focused on preparing ourselves and others to meet Jesus in joy on that last day.

Isaac Dagneau:

On that day, many of the things we stressed so much about won’t matter, including potentially many of our disagreements. This doesn’t mean disagreements aren’t important. We need to exercise humility, confession, and forgiveness in them. In fact, we can lead ourselves and others closer to Jesus through the way we respond in disagreements, preparing us and others better for that last day to come.

Isaac Dagneau:

But when it comes to the strong emotions of anger, pride, and anxiety that we can often let weigh us down in disagreements, it’s just not necessary that we let that happen. Sure, we’ll feel feelings, but remembering that every day and every year, including every disagreement in those times is being carried to a moment when everything will be brought together under Jesus. It puts everything into perspective. What really matters is where you and others stand in relation to Jesus. If we’re going to stress and feel deeply about anything, may it be about that.

Isaac Dagneau:

Well, that wraps up today’s episode. We hope you join us next week. As we host another conversation on life and faith. We’ll see you then.

Speaker 1:

Thanks so much for listening. If you want to hear more, subscribe on iTunes or Spotify, or visit us online at indoubt.ca or indoubt.com. We’re also on social media, so make sure to follow us on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter.

Isaac Dagneau:

Hey, this is Isaac, one of the hosts of indoubt, a ministry of Good News Global Media. Is it possible that being a Christian young person could be any more complicated than it is today? How do we make right choices and decisions when so many opinions around us seem contrary to what it means to live for Christ?

Isaac Dagneau:

At indoubt, we hope to help make sense, biblical sense of those difficult choices, decisions, and the complexity of faith, life and culture in 2021. So join us every week for another challenging conversation and our response as God’s people. For everything indoubt, visit indoubt.com. If you’d like to help us continue to offer this program, you can make a gift of any amount at indoubt.com or by calling 1-844-663-2424.