Ep. 125: The Art of Listening to Scripture
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The Reformation brought Bibles into the hands of everyday people (so good!), but did we then lose the art of listening to Scripture? We’re joined with Jonathan Bailey this week to talk about this. He and his brother are releasing Dwell, a new smartphone app that makes listening to Scripture easy and beautiful.
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Isaac Dagneau:
With me today is Jonathan Bailey. Jonathan is a serial entrepreneur, which is awesome, and serves in the area of Christian spiritual formation. It’s great to have you with us today, Jonathan.
Jonathan Bailey:
Hey, thanks so much for having me. Appreciate it.
Isaac Dagneau:
Some of us, and including myself, we don’t know you. Perhaps, share your brief testimony so we can just know you a bit more.
Jonathan Bailey:
Yeah, sure. Well, I think at my core, I’m someone who’s always loved to create things. My brother and I we’re actually identical twins and so we both get the chance to work together and we’ve created three companies over the last 10 or so years. It’s just something we love to do. We grew up in the North Texas area in Dallas. Just had a chance to really create some really cool products for people, especially focused in the Christian space and the church space. That’s been really great, but we grew up as pastor’s kids. There’s good and bad that comes with that, right?
You know, while I didn’t get to see my dad as much as maybe I wanted to, I did get to enjoy the privileges and responsibilities that came with having this big church sanctuary open to us. So we’d have BB gun wars in the church sanctuary. Our friends would come up and we would terrorize the instruments and have our own personal concert set up on stage and so it was fun, you know? But, my dad started this church out of his house in the early nineties and I think my brother and I had the good fortune to be able to watch him start something from scratch. I think that built in us this entrepreneurial sense like, “Hey, we could do this too,” and so it was like this genesis point for us. We’ve just been starting things I guess ever since.
Isaac Dagneau:
Yeah, no. That’s awesome. So you say you started these three companies, organizations. Can you share with us what maybe those are?
Jonathan Bailey:
Yeah, absolutely. The first one was called gracewaymedia.com which I think now has been renamed into Igniter Media. But it was a place that pastors and church leaders could go to find all types of church and ministry graphics for whether it’s their screen or the service. We started that I think it was early 2000s maybe 2005, 2006 and had a great run with the company. After about six or seven years, we sold it to another great group and then my brother and I started our second company which is called lightstock.com. We’ve been running this company for the last five or six years. It’s doing really great and it’s a company that provides stock photography really for the Christian community that isn’t cheesy, is the way we say.
For so long, it’s just like when we were designing all of these graphics at Graceway Media, we thought it’s so hard to find quality imagery. We said, “If we ever get the chance to sell this company and try something new, we should really try to solve this problem for people.” What we did is we did get that opportunity and so we gave it a shot and we’ve been doing it for the last five or six years. We’ve had a great reception from churches and ministries and non-profits and, “Hey, this is exactly the kind of photography we would starve for almost.”
It’s been really great and then it’s lead us to be able to start our third company which I think gets at the heartbeat of who Josh and I are, which is Dwell, which is a Scripture listening app that’s completely dedicated to listening, the listening component.
We love reading. I mean we love reading books, but we also love audiobooks, podcasts, and it just seemed like there was never a great solution to listen to Scripture. So then, “Why don’t we try to tackle that problem?” We’ve been working on it for the last year and a half or so and now we’re getting ready to maybe to launch it to the world. We’re excited about it.
Isaac Dagneau:
That’s awesome and that’s really what we’re talking about today, Dwell, but even more specifically, listening to Scripture. Now, it’s interesting, you mention in your Kickstarter video, which if you’re listening right now and it’s already peaked your interest this Dwell app, I encourage you to go online. I’ll provide the link on our episode podcast page and watch their video because it’s very well done. It really helps give a really full … it’s not this quick little video. It’s a full understanding of what they’re doing.
But anyways, you mention, Jonathan, in your Kickstarter video that the Reformation, which we just celebrated last year, the 500th anniversary, brought Bibles into everyday people’s hands, which is awesome and that’s so good. The world’s never been the same in one sense but, since then we’ve lacked in this listening aspect of Scripture which before the Reformation that was the main form. Why personally do you believe listening to Scripture is needed in the 21st century?
Jonathan Bailey:
Yes, that’s a really good question. I think yeah, it’s interesting to think about that most folks engage with Scripture in a way that was listening before the Gutenberg and even after the Gutenberg Press. It was still you know the literacy rates were still extremely low. It’s this listening component that we’ve been thinking about. I mean when we read, our default tendency I think is to study. It’s almost like we want to pull the text apart and piece it back together. We draw all these conclusions or make decisions. It’s almost as if we’re making the text work. We’re seeking comprehension, which is great. I mean it’s a wonderful thing but it’s like we’re searching to grasp with the mind to sharpen our thinking to gather, to learn and to understand.
When we’re reading it’s like we’re trying to get something out of it but when we listen, it’s a little different experience actually. I think it’s important because we have to leave all of that behind when we listen. We lose the ability to be precise. There’s no underlining or cross referencing or consulting commentaries or starring or highlighting.
Listening is a more leisurely experience and when we listen, our default tendency I think is marination or just marinating in the Word. Instead of reading the words, we steep in them. We’re almost gaining, instead of comprehension with reading, we’re gaining apprehension which means either we’re laying a hold of something or something is laying a hold of us. It’s like we’re seized or captured or engaged. It’s similar to what happens when we listen to music. We just get lost. We’re caught up in the music. It’s moving us or animating us.
What we want to help people with is help to put our hearts in a position where we can just soak in the Word. I think at the heart for Josh and I, the reason we want to create this app is we’re trying to help people when they listen to Scripture, not necessarily trying to get something out of it but trying to get into it, just to inhabit it and then over time, we become inhabited by it. You know? That’s what I think we’re going for.
Isaac Dagneau:
Well it’s interesting that you say that because a few years ago now or more so there was another big Kickstarter campaign, Bibliotheca. I don’t know if you’ve heard of that.
Jonathan Bailey:
Yeah, absolutely.
Isaac Dagneau:
Yeah and I almost feel he was understanding that when we’re reading our Bibles with super thin pages and the verses, we’re put into this mindset that we’re going to read it like we have always read the Bible, studying it or maybe just letting it wash over us without actually, like you were saying, coming into it.
He was like, “Let’s make into more like a story without any of the verses and all that kind of stuff like the numbers,” but now you’re even going a step farther to say, “No, let’s just remove the book aspect and let’s just tell the story.” I mean when you think about it I mean you think of let’s say the New Testament Book of Romans. I mean, here you’ve had this church in Rome and this letter was written by Paul the Apostle, which people have heard about. This is Paul, he’s writing to us and then you have a guy up there and he’s going to read it out loud so the first time the beautiful and mysterious and awe-inspiring truths of Romans, the first time that that was even said was through people’s ears, which is really powerful to understand.
Jonathan Bailey:
The Apostles, I think, knew that their letters would be read aloud and so I think they actually write in such a way that the Scripture almost makes for good listening. I think we’re tapping into something that’s important and while we would never want to replace reading, right? We want to come alongside. It’s just like a viable option for people. We all have those pockets in our day and it’s little pockets where we pop on a podcast or some music or an audiobook. What we want to say is, “Hey, let’s let the Bible compete for some of those spaces. Let’s create an app that is so well done, that is so compelling that it’ll make you say, ‘You know what? Instead of this audiobook, I’m going to listen to Romans. Instead of this audiobook, I’m going to listen to the Gospel of John or I’m going to listen to the Psalms today.’” That’s what we’re hoping for.
Isaac Dagneau:
Yeah, no that’s so good. You know as you’ve obviously been developing the app and you’ve been recording people speaking obviously the Scripture, I bet it’s been able to put into perspective too that for a lot of let’s say the New Testament books, I mean they’re not going to be hours upon hours upon hours. They’re actually going to be quite short which helps us because sometimes we think that reading the Bible is this big long endeavor but during a half hour ride home, you could listen to a couple of books of the Bible.
Jonathan Bailey:
Yeah, absolutely. When you think about it, the Bible is not just a book, it’s a library of books and rarely do we think that way and so we treat it as a solid book, which obviously it is but when we realize actually this is a library of books, we can get at ’em and it takes the pressure off of having to read this monumental thing instead of just let’s break it up.
The way that we’re doing it too is really interesting where we’re curating the Bible and pulling out some of these incredible passages, incredible stories and letting people just simply tap on David and Goliath, tap on the Sermon on the Mount. There’s artwork and it’s just super easy to dive off into Scripture without this big book in front of you that can be a little intimidating. We’ve taken the intimidation factor out of the whole experience.
Isaac Dagneau:
Yeah, for sure and before we move on I want to go into the music in a second here but before we move on, to those that enjoy reading the Bible and studying the Bible. Perhaps you’re in Bible College or not even at Bible college, you just love to study the Bible on your own. I know for me for instance, as I read the Bible, I’ve read the same Bible for many years and I know where different stories are on the page so when I open up my Sermon on the Mount, I know that the beatitudes are on the top left corner and I know the different things like that but what I find really fascinating is that the other day I was driving home and I was listening to the Book of Mark. Listening to it, it helps me actually understand the story as a whole and I was actually able to in a sense it actually served my Bible study because it bridged one discourse to the next in a more perfect way because I didn’t have the division of flipping the page and the division of the uninspired little titles that our translators put in. There’s just something really cool that happens with listening but anyways let’s move on to the music aspect.
There’s going to be music in the background, and your brother, in the video, the Kickstarter video, mentioned that music can be distracting and I think that was really good that he said that. When he said that I was like, “Oh, okay. How are they going to tackle this?” I guess the question for you Jonathan is how are you going to be utilizing music to support this main task of getting the Scriptures into people’s ears?
Jonathan Bailey:
Yeah, exactly, and if we go back to what we said about listening has this ability that move you in a sense. We also think music has that same ability. Josh and I are two guys that grew up in Starbucks in the morning reading our Bibles and also listening to soundtracks. We love soundtracks and we love being moved along with the story. We thought “Wouldn’t it be amazing to be able to, in essence, score the Bible or create some music that isn’t distracting but draws you into the text?” We couldn’t think of anybody better than Steinway artist composer Chad Lawson to create this music. It’s all exclusive listening music that doesn’t distract actually. It draws you in.
This is what Chad said sometimes which I really like. He says, “If you notice the music then I’m not doing my job right.” Because, he wants the music to serve the Scripture and not the other way around. I think that’s really important. The music has this way of moving you through the stories, through the passages without distracting you but of course we know some people probably are thinking you know it’s just not for me. You have the ability to mute the music to turn it off completely and just listen to voice, so no one gets stuck listening to music but for people who listen to it, I think you’re going to be surprised at how subtle it is but also how beautiful it is and how it moves the experience forward.
Isaac Dagneau:
Absolutely, that’s so good. You know it’s interesting to think though if he’s sitting down on the piano and he’s reading or listening to the Scripture and he’s playing along to see what suits, to fits best. Was there ever a time when you were listening to the rough drafts where you’re like, “Oh, Chad I don’t know if that works there,” or did it seem that it could just flow pretty easily?
Jonathan Bailey:
You know it’s interesting. His process is less like scoring where you’re looking at a screen and scoring music. It’s more like we give him a word like prayer or peace or joy and then he writes a song with that theme, with that idea and then so it’s almost like this music has been prayed out from him. It’s been crafted in prayer and so each track that you listen to is like this prayer from Chad, this music that’s washing over you as you’re listening. It’s a really unique experience. I don’t think it’s ever been done before. It’s really exciting.
Isaac Dagneau:
That is really exciting. Before we move on to these last few questions, my friend, Chris, who’s our audio engineer, we were talking about the app right before we had this conversation today and he was saying that on the site, it talks about the fact that those that you had read out the Bible, the four or so people you had, they weren’t just people with good voices obviously but they were people that you wanted, that loved the Bible.
I thought that was a really cool point that you wanted to emphasize and you emphasize that in the video as well because sure, it would have been cool to have David Attenborough do Genesis and who like Morgan Freeman and all these different things but there would just be something missing because you’re like, “I know they’re just doing this because it’s their job.” But, your speakers actually love the Bible.
Jonathan Bailey:
Right and it’s hard to even talk about the difference between those you know listening to a voice of someone who’s really engaged with it and loves the Bible to have a share like they have a story. They have a personal relationship with Jesus and so somehow someway that gets filtered into the way they’re speaking. You know it’s hard to even articulate but it does come through when you listen to the voices. That’s one of the things that I think I’m most excited about and we’ve just gotten so much good feedback from every voice. We have four voices, so you can choose from anytime what voice you want to listen to. You have the ability to just go back and forth on the fly when you’re listening to set a default voice. It’s really cool though to have people that love the Bible as much as you do on the other end reading to you.
Isaac Dagneau:
Absolutely, that’s so good Jonathan and I remember my wife and I, we traveled on to Portland this past Christmas season and we just visited this church. There was a really cool experience because the pastor was preaching from John and he was preaching the story of Jesus going in and clearing out the temple. What was so powerful about this time was we were listening to this story, we weren’t studying it ourselves with our eyes in the Bible. We were just listening to it. He really believed. You could tell he did and he was telling the story and you could hear it in his voice and we both left feeling very … It was better than someone just telling us you know like a professor telling us what the main point of the story was. We just got the story because he was telling the story with this truth, with this conviction. That’s why I think it’s so powerful the fact that you got these people that really love the Bible and are convicted about what the Bible says, speak in the Scripture to us.
Jonathan, when you consider the general landscape of North American Christianity which you obviously have been involved in and been a part of, what problems or things that you see that needs a solution that perhaps the Dwell app will help?
Jonathan Bailey:
Yeah and I mean there’s probably a lot of things that I’d love to see different like most of us probably, but what Dwell could do specifically, it seems to me Dwell could help us recover that listening life. You know if you think about Israel, how they grew up listening to Scripture, I’m thinking about Deuteronomy 6:4 where they say, “Hear O, Israel. The Lord our God, the Lord is one.” Listen. Allow those words to enter through your heart, through your ears. Just the way they took in the Scripture was through the ear and listening. Before any of the stories or parables or sayings were put down on paper, they were read aloud. They had this listening life and we just think that recovering this listening life is maybe something Dwell can offer to the Christian community and maybe that helps shape and form us in a way that hasn’t happened before.
I think that would be my brother and I’s passion is just to help form and shape folks in a new way that hasn’t been done before. If that happens, that would be our greatest joy.
Isaac Dagneau:
Yeah, absolutely. That’s so good and do you think I mean this might be an obvious question but I’m just thinking for a lot of people that are Bible illiterate let’s say that is just going along the motions in their church, the Dwell app could really be a good- it’s almost a gateway for them to begin to invest their time into the Bible. Perhaps people that don’t regularly read the Bible, maybe this is going to be a more “easier” way for them to digest the Bible?
Jonathan Bailey:
Absolutely. I think so and we do even have that confirm for us just in replies. We’ve got email after email after email saying, “My husband doesn’t love reading but he’s excited to get a chance to listen to the Bible,” or, “My kids, I can’t get them to pick up a book. I can’t get them to pick up their Bible but they’re really into listening.” We think this could provide a nice opportunity as our culture moves from a less reading engaging with written content into more digital content. Maybe this creates a little bit of an opportunity for people to engage with Scripture more that way. That’s a plus. Absolutely.
Isaac Dagneau:
That’s so good. You know just to finish now we started personally with your life, we’ll end personally with you. How has listening to the Scripture or I should say what has listening to Scripture really done in your life personally?
Jonathan Bailey:
Actually, I think it was Charles Spurgeon that said, “Be walking Bibles,” and I love that because it forms this kind of picture in my mind and it represents I think personally for me what I want my life with Christ to be about. I want to live in this state of ongoing communion with God while I’m right in the middle of my ordinary life. I think that listening can do some of that at least.
You know, I love that I can listen while I’m doing something else. When I’m driving to work or exercising or just taking a walk around my neighbourhood, my heart is able to dwell on the Word while my body is processing something – some kind of routine. It’s almost like I’m in two places at once. I’m with Him and I’m with the world. I’m in it but I’m not of it. I think that’s what I love most about listening to Scripture. It’s one of those things that- we’ve been beta testing the app back and forth and I found that there are few activities that are more renewing or refreshing or even transforming than moving through our outer world while at the same time nourishing our inner one. That experience has been really, really cool and I’m excited for people to be able to experience that. I think Spurgeon said, just summing this one up, he said, “Visit many good books but live in the Bible.” I think Dwell has that opportunity to help us live in the Bible because it can be with us all the time.
Isaac Dagneau:
That’s so good. I love that. I guess the most important question is, when is this app coming out? Where can we get it? Is it going to cost money? All these questions that people are thinking about right now.
Jonathan Bailey:
Sure. We’re going to be launching probably towards the end of the month and it’s still a moving target but yeah, it’s going to be in the App Store and then you’ll be able to download the app and start listening right away. There’s a free version of Dwell and then there’s a paid version of Dwell. The paid version and it’s called Dwell Unlimited. In the free version you get just one voice. You can listen to the entire Bible, one voice, absolutely free and there’s some limited commercials or interruptions. They’re really not commercials they’re just interruptions that just say, “Hey, would you consider supporting Dwell?” The whole reason for a paid option is we’re wanting to record more translations of the Bible. We’re wanting to record more voices. In fact, we even have a vision to record more Christian books, Christian classics, just trying to create more content for people to marinate at and soak in. That’s why we have the paid option.
We have a flexible pay option too where you’re going to be able to subscribe to the Dwell Unlimited and it’s 2.99 a month or… make sure I’m getting my numbers right. I think it’s 23.99 a year and then there’s also a lifetime option that we’re going to be offering so that you pay one-time lifetime option of $99 that gets you the app for life and you never have to pay any more money. That will just allow us to keep creating all of this amazing content.
Isaac Dagneau:
Absolutely. That’s so good and the fact that you’re considering even doing some Christian classics like, Pilgrim’s Progress or whatever it may be, that would be so cool.
Anyways, thank you so much Jonathan for spending time with us today. If you’re listening and you’ve been interested in what we’ve been talking about, definitely check out the Dwell app. I’ll provide the link so you can go on their website and check it all out. But also, I would check out jonathanrbailey.com. It’s Jonathan’s personal site. He has a micro blog that goes out per week. Very cool so anyways let me just say again thank you so much Jonathan. I hope to talk to you again soon.
Jonathan Bailey:
Thanks so much. Appreciate it.
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Jonathan R. Bailey
episode links
The Dwell app comes out at the end of this month (June 2018)! Make sure to check out the main site for more.
Also, check out jonathanrbailey.com for more from Jonathan.