Ep. 142: What is Worship?

*Below is an edited transcription of the audio conversation.

Isaac Dagneau:

Welcome again to indoubt, the show that exists to bring the gospel to the relevant issues of life and faith that we all face every day, hoping to inspire conversation, but intentional conversation. We strive to live out this mission through creating this show that you’re listening to right now. Every Monday, a new conversation comes out with a different guest talking about a different topic. So, if you head to our archives on our site, you’ll see conversations on mental health, alcohol, transgenderism, music, the gospel, and so on. There’s a lot more online. I’d encourage you to go check it out. And if also, you head to our site, you’re going to find articles, you’re going to find a free video Bible study on Jude for visual or group use and more.

Isaac Dagneau:

This week we’re talking about worship, and worship is really relevant for everyone because we all do it, worship that is. The word worship, usually. I mean, it brings up ideas of religion, and gods, and so on. But, if we’re honest with ourselves, we worship every day, and not just gods, but people, objects, ourselves, other things. In fact, I don’t know if you’ve heard of the group, Beautiful Eulogy, they’re this Christian rap group from Portland, Oregon. But anyways, in their song called Messiah, they have this line that says, I’m not going to wrap it by the way, I’m just going to say it, “I suppose what exposes the worship in most of us is a close look at most of our thought fears and emotions.” So, that line reveals more than just people and objects, but even what we fear and think about. Those things, right, can reveal what we worship. This week on the show, we talk with Bob Kauflin, someone who’s been thinking about and participating in Christian worship for many years.

Isaac Dagneau:

Now, whether or not you are Christian… You may be skeptical right now in life, I get that. But whether or not you follow Jesus, Bob gives a great definition of worship that might surprise you, but it’s important that we know it and also talks about how to cultivate a worshipful heart. So, here’s a conversation with Bob.

Isaac Dagneau:

With me today is worship leader and author, Bob Kauflin. Bob is the director of Sovereign Grace Music. He also equips pastors and musicians in the theology and practice of congregational worship. And he’s done this through writing, conferences, many more avenues as well. Anyways, it’s great to have you with us today, Bob.

Bob Kauflin:

It’s a great joy to be here, Isaac.

Isaac Dagneau:

So, we do have a little of a connection. We haven’t really talked about this yet, even though we’ve never met my brother-in-law is Joel Sczebel, who I know was serving with you, and even lived at your house.

Bob Kauflin:

Yes, they did. One of their children was born while they were living with us.

Isaac Dagneau:

Yeah, my niece. So, there’s a little bit of a connection there. So, already I feel like there’s a little bit of a bond.

Bob Kauflin:

That’s so great.

Isaac Dagneau:

Yeah. Well firstly, why don’t you just share just a little bit about yourself, maybe how’d you come to the faith?

Bob Kauflin:

Well, I was raised Roman Catholic and I was going to become a priest, that was my plan as a 14 year old, I went to a junior seminary. And then it shut down after the first year I attended, I hope there wasn’t a connection there. But, after that I went back to public high school. And then, when I was a freshman in college, so I was about 17, a guy from a ministry called Campus Crusade, now called Cru, shared the gospel with me. He pursued me, I met with him in the student union building, and it was there that I learned from Romans that when Jesus died on the cross for me, He got it all done. He paid for every one of my sins and I didn’t need confession or some other act or some other work to secure forgiveness for my sins.

Bob Kauflin:

So, that was a life transforming thought. I mean, it certainly grew… I mean, I’ve been a Christian now for 47, 46 years, and I’ve continued to grow my amazement at that reality, but it was that year, 1972, when God first opened my eyes to see that the gift of God, his eternal life through Jesus Christ, our Lord.

Isaac Dagneau:

That’s so good. And, the last 46 years, what does that look like for you in brief snapshots?

Bob Kauflin:

Oh man. Oh, well I finished college. I went to Temple University in Philadelphia, got a piano performance degree. And then, I was in a Christian band called Glad for eight years. And they kept going, I left in ’84. And then, I became a pastor in 1985 with Sovereign Grace Churches. In ’97, I became… I don’t know what you call it. Well, I started doing what I’m doing now, which is director of Sovereign Grace Music. And so, for the last 21 years, I’ve been a pastor in the local church, but also been overseeing Sovereign Grace Music.

Isaac Dagneau:

That’s awesome. And I want to ask really briefly about Sovereign Grace Music. Not a lot of denominations, which I think Sovereign Grace would be called a denomination, but not a lot of denominations have a whole huge music section. So, Sovereign Grace Music, as I know, it is quite this large resource organization. Just let us know a little bit more about Sovereign Grace Music.

Bob Kauflin:

Yeah. Don’t let looks deceive you. We are not a huge organization. Sovereign Grace Music began simply out of songs that we were writing to serve our churches. We’re a family of about 80 some churches now. And, Mark Altrogge, Steve and Vicki Cook, and myself were the primary writers back in the 80s. And, we just started writing songs for our people to sing. And, over the years, I think we’ve done some 60 projects, actually. I mean, it does go back to cassette tapes in the 80s and 90s. So, we currently release about one major album a year, and then we have been doing kids albums as well. We have five kids albums that we’ve done. We’re about to release our fourth together for the gospel live album, which is just me on a piano leading thousands, mostly men, at a pastor’s conference that’s held in here in Louisville, Kentucky every other year.

Isaac Dagneau:

That’s awesome. That’s so good. Bob, as we shift now into the conversation that we’re going to have, generally, it’s about cultivating this heart of worship, but before we can there, I just want to ask you, what does it mean to worship? And, why do we often, I think sometimes subconsciously, we put a criteria, we say that someone’s worshiping when they’re doing this certain criteria of external actions, like shutting their eyes, swaying, crying, things like that, but we know instinctively that worship is than that because people say that, but yeah, just flush that out, what does it mean to worship?

Bob Kauflin:

Well, when I began in this position 21 years ago, one of the first things I did was start reading books about worship, which I hadn’t done a lot of until that time. I read Engaging with God, by David Peterson, which I would highly commend to anyone who’s involved with leading the music in their church and for any pastor. A book called Adoration and Action. Anyway, I began to understand that, “Wow, worship, isn’t just the music. Worship isn’t just a feeling.” In fact, he begins with a quote that debunks that, and it was this shock for me, “What? This is what I thought worship is.” And, scripturally, there are a number of words that we translate as worship in both the old and the new testaments, the basic gist of them is, it involves our attitudes and actions. It’s response to God in ways that show reverence, and awe, and the actions of servanthood.

Bob Kauflin:

So, none of it’s connected to music really, which is so interesting, that we have landed there as a culture. And I think worldwide, we often describe worship as the singing. When Jesus in a well-known story, situation was talking to the Samaritan woman in John 4, He talks about worship in spirit and truth. And, we’ll often use that phrase to describe what happens when we gather. Jesus wasn’t really talking about music. There’s no mention of music. He wasn’t even talking really about gathering. He was talking about approaching God through Him, by the power of the spirit. The lesson on the Trinity. And so, biblically speaking, yeah, Christian worship is the response of God’s redeemed people to his self-revelation that exalts God’s glory in Christ in our minds, in our affections, in our wills, and all that’s in the power of the holy spirit.

Bob Kauflin:

It takes God to worship God. We couldn’t worship God apart from his enabling us to, but if we’re going to worship Him, we’ve got to worship Him for who He really is, who he’s revealed Himself to be. And then, we’ve got to worship Him in ways that honor Him. Well, that goes far beyond singing. It incorporates everything we do really, and our thoughts, and our words, and our actions.

Isaac Dagneau:

Right. No, that’s really helpful. You alluded to it, but I’m just wondering if you have any thoughts on why we often put worship to music, and you say they last century or so we’ve really done that. Why do you think that is?

Bob Kauflin:

Well, there’s certainly a biblical precedent for using music to praise God. The Psalms, we have as an example, there’s no soundtrack to the Psalms, but there are a number of musical references, where we see in Colossians 3:16, Ephesians 5:18, that Christians sing Psalms, and hymns, and spiritual songs. Paul and Barnabas were singing at midnight in prison, they were singing hymns. It’s like, “Whoa. What is that? What’s what’s going on there?” The revelation is filled with hymns of praise to God. There is a natural connection between words which is truth specific, and music which is emotion specific, it combines the two. When we sing, it combines the most specific form of communicating truth, which is words, with the least specific form of communicating truth, which is music. Put it together, and so what it helps us do is feel the truth.

Isaac Dagneau:

That’s good. And, this is an interesting question I’m just throwing in here now, if you’re in your local church with the community of believers, your brothers, and sisters in Christ, you’re singing these songs. How do you know if you are genuinely worshiping God through those songs?

Bob Kauflin:

I think it begins with our minds. Are we thinking about things that enable us to exalt God’s glory in Christ? If I’m thinking about what I’m going to have for lunch, if I’m thinking about how hot it is in here, if I’m thinking about, “Well, does that person like me?” If I’m thinking about the bills I have, I’m worshiping, I’m just not worshiping God. I’m valuing something at that moment, it’s just not God. So, I may not feel a ton, and this is where we often get off, we think of worship as a feeling.

Bob Kauflin:

Worship isn’t a feeling, it’s an action. It’s a response, which often leads to feeling, because the truth is that, when we think about how God has, in Jesus Christ, humbled Himself and died in our place so that our sins could be paid for, and Jesus has risen from the dead and he’s ascended to his father’s right hand, where He intercedes for us, and all this, so that we might be forgiven and adopted in God’s family and experience eternal joy at his right hand, that’s going to produce emotion and feeling. But, I may sing all those things and think about them and yet not really be moved. But no, that I’ve worshiped God, because I’ve given Him the honor and the glory that stood his name.

Isaac Dagneau:

Wow. That’s good. And I do want to come back to that one more time, but a question I do want to ask you is this, if worship is what you’re saying it is, it’s this response to who God is, then how do we cultivate a worshipful heart and mind? And I know you’ve touched on that already, but I’m thinking of this in two ways. One, how do we do this alone? So, you as just Bob at home, waking up in the morning, just you, me as Isaac, and so many others, but then also how do we do this together in the community of the church?

Bob Kauflin:

Well, that’s a great question, because if you can’t do it practically, all the conversation really doesn’t matter. Personally, individually, I get up each morning and my thoughts are going in a a 100 different directions. This morning I woke up, I was thinking about a conference I’m leading next week in Frisco, Texas, and things that I need to do. And so, one of the things I start doing is just quoting scripture to myself. I’ve sought to memorize scripture. I keep on memorizing scripture. And, I will just review scriptures, and just think about them, meditate on them, chew on them, not just get through them, but just think about, “Okay, this is the God that I love. This is the God who made me.” And so, that begins to prime my heart to receive, because worship begins with receiving. We can’t come to God on our own without Him giving us something to come to Him with.

Bob Kauflin:

And this often helps me, I think about how much I need God and how much He desires to help me. My heart trusts in Him and I am helped, Psalm 28 says. And, when I think about the Lord, it helps me. So, I turn my thoughts to the Lord. I read scripture, I read his word, I seek to encounter Him, I read books about the Bible that stir my soul. And then occasionally, I’ll sing, but not too often, because I’m in a home with a lot of different people there. So, I can’t really do that.

Bob Kauflin:

So, it’s focusing on who God has revealed Himself to be in Christ. And then asking myself, “What difference does that make in my life?” Bringing my needs, my requests, and my concerns all to the Lord and trusting Him to do what only He can do with them. And then, corporately, it’s the same thing congregationally, we are seeking to sing songs, pray prayers, to hear messages that reflect who God has revealed Himself to be. And I think oftentimes, we are confident that the word of God and the gospel, in and of themselves are powerful enough to change people’s lives. And so, we look to technology, and lights, and scripting, and good communication techniques to impress people. And, those things should all be used just to draw attention to who God is, what he’s done for us in Christ, and what a difference that makes in our lives.

Isaac Dagneau:

Bob, what can a Christian do if they just sense that their local church gathering or their community group Bible study at home, when they, I don’t know, do things that are “worshipful,” if they don’t really find that it is that worshipful, what can just one person do to help initiate or pioneer this more worshipful attitude in place in their church? Maybe they feel like the music is cold and no one’s really lively, or anything like that.

Bob Kauflin:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean the first thing, because this a general question, the first thing I do is just examine my own heart. It’s a truism that a worshiper worships God. Christian worshiper, worships God. Whatever situation I find myself in, the music might be bad, the leadership might be bad, the setting might be bad. I’m not going to miss this opportunity to magnify the Lord in my heart, and to magnify Him in my body, and in my singing. So, I don’t want to be just standing there as the critic, the one who knows all, the Simon Cowell of worship, the one who’s just… And that’s no offense against Simon Cowell. He can be very insightful. But, the one that just critiques everything.

Bob Kauflin:

So, that’s the first thing I do. I just ask God to humble me and make sure that I’m really seeking to honor Him. And then, if you feel there’s still things that might change, I talk to the leaders, I talk to a leader. And I begin with questions, say, how do you think about Sunday mornings? What am I supposed to be feeling or what am I supposed to be thinking? Or, how do you pick the songs, or how do we think about the word of God in our meeting and what place does that play? And then, after having that conversation, you might say, “That’s really good. I just want you to know that there are times when I really struggle with that. What do you think I’m missing?” Go at it humbly. And that will enable the person you’re speaking to either help you or to acknowledge, “Well, you know what? That’s just not problem that we could really change there.” So I think having a conversation about it.

Isaac Dagneau:

Yeah. That’s so good, Bob. You said earlier on that to worship is… Or can be, I should say, void of feeling, like this is a proper and honoring response. And, I just think that some people say that they are singing songs on Sunday morning, they feel like they’re actually being hypocritical or inauthentic when they’re singing those songs. Possibly just get into the rhythm with their body as well, and they’re not feeling the affections of God in their heart. And I know you’ve already said this, but I just want you to reiterate and emphasize that fact that it doesn’t have to include feeling, though it leads to feeling eventually.

Bob Kauflin:

Yeah. I think the thing there Isaac to remember is that, everyone’s going to go through that time… I mean, I go through it every Sunday, when you don’t necessarily feel anything. The question is, what do you do with that? Where do you turn your focus? Where do you turn your eyes? So, even when I’m leading, I might think, “Oh, I’m more conscious right now of what tempo the drummers playing or those people out there who aren’t singing.” At that moment, I want to give all my effort to thinking about the truths I’m singing.

Bob Kauflin:

Now, that’s assuming that I’m singing words that are worth meditating, because that’s not always the case, but assuming that you’re singing good songs, thinking about them and applying my heart to them, just seeking to immerse myself in the truth that’s coming out of my mouth and let that affect me. It may be a song or two before I begin to realize what’s really happening. But oftentimes, it’s just a line we’re singing, and it’s just a line we realize, “Oh, wow. That is me. That is really me.” And that’s the holy spirit working, but unless we’re actually singing and participating, it’s rare that happens.

Isaac Dagneau:

Yeah. No, that’s really good. And that’s very helpful. Thank you. Thank you, Bob for that. I have a couple questions that are outside that realm of worship. And, if you’re listening, that’s scratching the surface on the topic of worship and that’s awesome, Bob, that you’ve helped us through that. But a couple questions just because you are someone that’s thought a lot about worshiping God through music, you’ve written on this, again, like I said, you’ve done conferences and are speaking on this, and I think this is a question that’s becoming more and more prevalent as more and more worship songs are going off on the internet and everyone’s singing them. Here’s a question I think many Christians struggle with, if you don’t agree with the theology of a corporate worship song, or even it’s just a line or two from the song, I think some people can struggle with, “Should I be singing this publicly amongst my brothers and sisters in Christ? Why or why not?”

Bob Kauflin:

Yeah. There’s a wide range of songs that would fall into that category. Some are just an unclear line. And in that case, it’d be no problem. You import your own meaning into it and it may be a line that’s repeated a lot. And in that case, I’ll often just fill in between the lines with maybe some more substantive thoughts. I’ll either say them, or I’ll sing them. If it’s a line that… I’ll give you an example of a very popular song, “You didn’t want heaven without us.” It’s the first line of verse two of What a Beautiful Name, which is an amazing song, I think, apart from that line. I can understand how that line might be understood. You created heaven, or haven’t existed and you created everything so that we’d be a part of it. But, it can sound like, unfortunately, God didn’t want heaven apart from us, almost like it wasn’t complete. It wasn’t sufficient. And, yeah, that’s not true. And I think the writers know that too. It’s just an unclear line.

Bob Kauflin:

So, if I was standing in congregation, I wouldn’t sing that line. But I don’t know if people are actually watching us that closely to see. Someone might come up to ask us afterwards and say, “What did you think about that line?” And that might give us an opportunity to further explain.

Isaac Dagneau:

Yeah. No, that’s good. And, that’s very helpful, Bob. One more question, along those lines. Paul says in Philippians that there are some of these preachers that are preaching for the wrong intentions, for money.

Bob Kauflin:

Yeah. Yeah.

Isaac Dagneau:

But he’s like, “I rejoice in it because people are still hearing the gospel.”

Bob Kauflin:

Yeah. Yeah.

Isaac Dagneau:

With that in mind Bob, I guess, some people also struggle with, “Should I be singing a song that’s really solid and it’s awesome, though perhaps their author or the church behind that, maybe there are some questionable things with that?”

Bob Kauflin:

Yeah.

Isaac Dagneau:

Do you take that in the same realm as Paul, and you rejoice it because it’s good, or do you think there’s some other things there as well?

Bob Kauflin:

Well, absolutely. But I think the category that determines whether or not you should do it, is edification. If it’s a distraction to a number of people, then I wouldn’t lead it. If it’s not a distraction, then I would. And, it’s also a factor too, Isaac, of what teaching you’re getting at your church. So, if your church preaches the word of God faithfully, and it’s clear that scripture as authority over everything you do, if you do a song from a group where you might not agree with a lot of their practices or their theology, they’ll know that you picked that song because of the words, and not because you approve of that ministry.

Bob Kauflin:

So, I think it’s helpful to realize that, if you only do one or two songs from a group, that’s a statement, they might be putting out 100 of songs, but you’re only doing one or two, that’s saying to people, “Look, we’re choosing this song because it speaks truth. And, it’s going to minister truth.” But, having said that, if a song is going to cause a lot of people in the church to stumble and be distracted, well, then it’s not worth doing.

Isaac Dagneau:

Yeah, that’s good. And the main point there, like you said, at the very beginning is, edification. What is going to edify, lift up the community of believers and not distract them.

Bob Kauflin:

That’s right.

Isaac Dagneau:

Thank you so much, Bob. We’re at the end of our time now. I really do appreciate your time, with us today, your wisdom, obviously in this area as well, for those listening who are interested in hearing more from Bob and also from Sovereign Grace Music, I have two sites for you to check out. One is, worshipmatters.com, which you’ll find this blog role from Bob and other resources as well. And the other site is, sovereigngracemusic.org, which is just this massive, awesome, great resource site. Honestly, my wife and I were just using it last week to prepare for some worship at church. So, anyways, this is great, if you’re interested in congregational worship songs, and some of the resources are just incredible on there. So, I thank you, Bob, and the crew for doing that. But yeah, thanks again, Bob. And I hope to have you back on again.

Bob Kauflin:

Oh, Isaac. Thanks so much. It’s been an honor.

Isaac Dagneau:

That was worship leader and author Bob Kauflin. Bob talked about the fact that to worship God doesn’t have to include feelings, at least in part, he said that feelings certainly come, but they’re not immediately necessary when we worship. We can worship God with our minds and with our bodies, we can honor and obey Him without necessarily feeling like it. In fact, a good chunk of the Christian life is worshiping God without feeling like it. Now sometimes, if we don’t feel like worshiping God, then we won’t worship God. And I think that’s a mistake. And close to worshiping God is actually pursuing God, this act of moving closer to Him. And if we’re honest with ourselves, we don’t constantly or consistently pursue God.

Isaac Dagneau:

Let’s think about this for a moment. We can define pursuing God as consciously thinking, speaking, and acting in such a way that demonstrates our love for God. So, the only time when we’ll be able to pursue God this way consistently will be in heaven, obviously. Well on earth, we’re constantly faced with the sin in our lives. Sin causes every thought, word, and deed to be less than pure in the eyes of God. Now, this doesn’t mean we quit striving for more of God. It just means we have a humility when bringing our best to God, knowing that even our best is stained a little bit by sin. But even our stained best is what God desires from us. Now certainly, Jesus wouldn’t have said, “You shall love the Lord, your God with everything,” if he didn’t actually mean it. Right?

Isaac Dagneau:

So, what about when we’re not naturally inclined to love the Lord, our God, with everything that we are? What about when we don’t want to pursue Him? When we don’t want to worship Him? What do we do? The first thing we should know is that pursuing God or loving God with everything, isn’t dependent on how we may feel toward Him at any given moment. We could say the same thing about worshiping Him. Put simply, God doesn’t desire our pursuit of Him only when we feel like pursuing Him, He desires and He actually commands our pursuit of Him and worship of Him even when we don’t feel like it.

Isaac Dagneau:

This would mean that our pursuit of God is more than just heart affections, right? When we don’t want to pursue God, we’re subconsciously looking at our heart’s affections and determining that there’s nothing there for God. And the reality is that, that’s going to happen a lot in life, but we’re to never justify not pursuing God because it’s not from the heart. That’s just a weak excuse. Rather we are to focus on the mind. We should be thinking about the gospel, walk through it, even though it may be hard if your heart’s not in it. Just walk yourself through the gospel, talk to another Christian, talk to a brother or sister in Christ who is feeling affections for Christ and have them encourage you. And also just read and listen to the Bible, that’s also what Bob said.

Isaac Dagneau:

Anyways, if indoubt is a ministry that you enjoy, that you gain from, or perhaps you believe in our mission to bring the gospel to relevant issues of life and faith, then perhaps you’d prayerfully consider making a donation. Everything we do at indoubt is given out for free, yet it costs us money to create it all. If you’d like to support us in this way, it’s really easy to do so, just click the donate button and follow the simple instructions at indoubt.ca, if you live in Canada, or indoubt.com, if you live in the states. Well, that wraps up today’s episode. We hope you join us next week as we host another conversation on life and faith. We’ll see you then.