Ep. 279: Hell

*Below is an edited transcription of the audio conversation.

Speaker 1:

Welcome to the indoubt Podcast, where we explore the challenging topics that young adults often face. Each week, we talk with guests who help answer questions of faith, life, and culture, connecting them to our daily experiences and God’s Word. For more info on indoubt, visit indoubt.ca or indoubt.com.

Daniel Markin:

Hey, welcome to indoubt. My name is Daniel Markin, and today I have Dr. John Neufeld on the program with me and we are not holding back. We are talking about hell. It’s a very controversial issue, but as we’ll discuss, and as you’ll see, it’s actually a very prominent and important issue for us as Christians. We need to be thinking rightly about hell. So, I hope you find this episode helpful. Hey, welcome to indoubt. My name’s Daniel Markin, and I’m joined again by Dr. John Neufeld. We just had a program together and it’s great to have you back on the program. Dr. John, how are you?

Dr. John Neufeld:

I am doing great, Daniel. Great to be with you again. It’s fun to talk about something as vital as I think what we’re going to talk about.

Daniel Markin:

Absolutely. Last time we were chatting, we talked about heaven and it’s fitting to actually complete the discussion and talk about the other side of this, which is hell. I know, immediately, as soon as we mentioned this topic, people want to recoil, our culture wants to recoil from that idea, this idea of hell. Not a place that anyone wants to be, not a place that anyone wants to talk about, but you’re not afraid of talking about things like this. You’ve just written about it. I don’t think, as Christians, we should be afraid about talking about this because I think as we’ll see, there’s a lot of unique pieces that hell brings to the entire story and scope of God, as we think about His righteousness, His sovereignty, and even His judgment over a rebellious creation. And so, I guess, as we begin, I’d love to hear your perspective as to why you didn’t just write a book about heaven, but also you’re including discussion about hell.

Dr. John Neufeld:

Well, I think I could probably start by saying that according to Jesus, the way is narrow that leads to heaven and only a few find it. The way is broad that leads to hell and many are passing on that road. So, according to Jesus, the default position of the human race is hell and not heaven. And if we don’t say what Jesus said, we’re not being faithful to His Word. Now, a lot of descriptions need to happen, but nonetheless, I think that needs to be said. If the human race is facing a universal cataclysm, to never bring up that cataclysm is to be as unloving as we can possibly be. If hell is indeed the reality that Jesus talked about, for us to be silent on this, I can only imagine individuals getting to the other side and facing judgment and saying to believers, “You never mentioned even a word of this and I was standing before a cataclysm and you never sounded a note of warning.”

Dr. John Neufeld:

It’s Ezekiel’s watchman on the wall. If there is an enemy that’s approaching and the watchman does nothing, and doesn’t sound warning, the blood of those who are inside the city, who are now basically sacrificed because of war, that will be demanded in the end of the day of the watchman and we’re watchman on the wall. So, for us to be silent when the human race faces such an enormity is to me almost beyond description or how it is that we could have been this way.

Daniel Markin:

Yeah, it definitely is one of the sobering things that I consider as I’m early in my pastoral ministry. And so often, I think the church has forsaken their responsibility on warning about the coming judgment. It’s just not something that people want to hear. We talked a little bit about on our last episode, the fact that we’ve come through the enlightenment from where in the middle ages, people viewed most people as bad. Deep down, we’re bad and deserving of hell. And that shifted after the enlightenment to, deep down, people are actually good and the default place should be heaven. And so, as Christians, we’re actually pulling back and saying, “Ah, the former was correct.”

Daniel Markin:

And by the way, you can see that as you look around creation and you can see how we treat each other, how we abuse one another, how we sin against each other. I don’t think that we deep down are good people. I think deep down we’re longing for things to be made right. And that ultimately is going to happen through judgment. It will happen through judgment.

Dr. John Neufeld:

Yeah. I think what’s behind all of this is the nature of sin. See, I think that the objection and you’ve mentioned it here, is that people are saying, “Look, are we really that bad? I mean, what could we possibly do?” I mean, a garden variety center, it hasn’t murdered anybody. It hasn’t done the odd and occasional gossip against people and that kind of thing. But we say to ourselves, what could be worthy of an eternity of suffering? Which is what hell actually is. So, I think it’s important for us, first of all, to understand the nature of our sin. But if I can back up just a bit, Daniel, and to say that when we talk about this, we better not talk about it by rubbing our hands with glee. We rather should talk about it with a tear in our eye and deeply overwhelmed by the enormity of it.

Dr. John Neufeld:

If the preacher does not love the people to whom he is ministering to, I think he best just shut up. I really do. I think what we need to see is that there is a universal condition and it is found in Romans 1, “The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness of men who suppress the truth about what? About God, who failed to give thanks to God for everything.” I’m going to say that the ultimate sin is our failure to acknowledge God and to give thanks to Him and everything. And I’ll go beyond that and I’ll say, it is so bad that a million Auschwitzes do not compare to the horror of failing to give thanks to the creator for everything that He is and what He has provided. That needs some time to unpack, but that’s really stating the heart of it.

Dr. John Neufeld:

There is such a grandeur in the creator and that a crime against the creator is greater than the crime against the creation. And therefore, the crime against the creator is an infinite horror demanding of infinite punishment. That’s what the doctrine of hell is all about. And it does make us stop and think, “Oh my, what is our culpability before God?” So, I’m going to say, there are no garden variety centers. There are, as C. S. Lewis put it, there are everlasting horrors or everlasting splendors and that’s all we got.

Daniel Markin:

I think you’re speaking rightly to a view that we have currently, which is we don’t view God with enough respect as we should, with enough majesty, enough glory. Because if God is this floating being who organizes everything for our good, not for our bad, but for our good, just so that we are happy, that’s a wrong view of God. And I’ve heard it explained like this, if you squash a spider, there’s no penalty for that. That’s in some ways a violent crime against that spider. You’ve ended that spider, but there’s no laws against that. If you punch another human, you could actually have assault charges laid on you and you’d feel the weight of the law. If you punch the queen of England, good luck. I think you could see a lot of time in prison there, maybe a life in prison.

Daniel Markin:

And as it goes up and up, depending on the enormity of the person, the prestige of the person, it goes up. So, factored in an eternal sovereign, holy, righteous, God. And not just a brokenness towards Him, but as Romans begins to talk about, a all out rebellion against Him. It’s not something that we’re like, “Oh, sorry, God, I messed up.” It’s like, “No, I’m rebelling against you. I don’t want anything to do with you. I am God,” is what we’re saying, you know, rebelling. A sin against the Lord like that, that has heightened the scales. And I think you putting a million Auschwitz, wouldn’t even come close to the penalty that is due, an all-out rebellion that is in the hearts of men.

Dr. John Neufeld:

Yeah. I think what’s required here is that we get some kind of a sense of what it means to talk about theism, and that is about God. And because I think most people still, when they think about God, think about a being very much like themselves, maybe just a little bit better. And I think that is why we have a difficulty with His concept. So, let me quote a couple of scripture passages here to you. Psalm 25:11, “For your own name’s sake, oh Lord, pardon my guilt.” Okay. So, why should God pardon my guilt for the sake of His name, not for the sake of mine? Psalm 31:3, “You are my rock and my fortress and for your name’s sake lead and guide me.” Psalm 79:9, “Help us, oh God of our salvation. Deliver us, atone for our sins, for your name’s sake.” Very popular, Psalm 23, “He leads me in the paths of righteousness for His own name’s sake.”

Dr. John Neufeld:

Now, if we think about it in human terms, if we ran into a politician or anybody else, and we said, “Tell me why you’re doing what you’re doing. What’s the motivation that motivates your action?” And if that person said, “I’m doing it for my own name’s sake,” we’d say, “That’s it. I mean, you’re an egomaniac.” And we’d say, “That’s just wrong.” I like to say, if I said, look, why do I write, why do I preach? And if I said, I did this for my own name’s sake, rightfully, I should be removed from my ministry because it’s inappropriate. But the question we need to ask ourselves, why is it inappropriate? And the answer has to be that any human being who does things for the sake of their own name is actually unrighteous.

Dr. John Neufeld:

They were unrighteous because, number one, they are not altogether glorious because other human beings have as much worth as they have, and therefore, for them to put themselves ahead of other human beings is an unrighteous act. But we have to ask ourselves then, and you’ve already used the example of crushing a spider, crushing a human being. Imagine for instance that you’re spraying for mosquitoes in an area where all the mosquitoes are infested with malaria, let’s say. So, we are killing the mosquitoes because they could infect a child. So, we’re going to say, we’re going to destroy millions of mosquitoes because it’s either going to be their life or it’s going to be the life of the child. Now, anybody that would choose the life of the mosquito over the life of the child would be ultimately worthy of condemnation.

Dr. John Neufeld:

I mean, would we not condemn someone who had said, “Oh no, I’m going to spare the life of that mosquito so that the mosquito can live, even if it means the child would die.” I mean, we’d condemn it utterly because of exactly what you’ve mentioned, this matter of worth, inherent worth. So, we have to ask ourselves, what would be the worth of an altogether glorious creator upon which all creation, moment by moment, hangs on His continual willing that it should continue to exist. I mean, what’s the worth of such a being? Now, if we would say, “Only about as much as the creation itself, would we not be right to utterly condemned that perspective?” So, if we say it would be okay for the glory of God to be besmudged, for His name not to be mentioned, for us to take credit for the things that God does, it would be okay for us to denigrate the glory of God so that we would be okay.

Dr. John Neufeld:

Then at that point in time, I think we need to talk about what’s right and what’s wrong. So, I’m going to say, to argue for a world that does not necessitate a hell for human beings who denigrate the glory of God, we’re really saying, “God’s not that altogether glorious at all. We are glorious, He’s not.” So, there’s a lot to be talked about here, but the idea of there not being a hell is the idea of there not being a glorious God.

Daniel Markin:

Do you think that maybe is the root of why this hasn’t been preached across churches?

Dr. John Neufeld:

Yeah. We’re having a hard time with an altogether glorious God. Yeah, we have a hard time being theists. It’s amazing what kind of language has become acceptable. First of all, we use God’s name in jest or in cursing. But among believers, even, it’s become all right for some believers to say, “I’m angry with God and while God’s big enough, He should be able to take it. So, I should be able to tell God just how mad I am at how he’s treated me.” And the idea is that I could actually have that kind of a conversation with God and for God not to consume me on the spot. Sure, we’ve all been angry with God, but we have to be overwhelmed with the fact that our anger with God is an unrighteous anger, and God has not consumed us, but been merciful. That’s what should overwhelm us, not with my right to be angry.

Dr. John Neufeld:

But again, this is just an example of how we think about our relationship with God. And I think it’s premised on the idea that God is very much like us, maybe just a little bit better, but we’re pretty much on His level.

Daniel Markin:

And also, it speaks to the love of God is we’re encouraged in the Psalms to cry out to Him. And even if we’re frustrated or angry, we’re encouraged to cry out to Him.

Dr. John Neufeld:

Yes, and so, let me add to this. I have a quote here from Jonathan Edwards and it’s I think the greatest theologian that has lived on this continent. And his word was this, “If the obligation to love, honor, and obey God is an infinite obligation, then sin, which is a violation of infinite obligation is also an infinite evil. And infinite evil deserves infinite punishment.” So, that in a nutshell, that’s the argument for hell. And it should rightfully fill us with terror, but it should also fill us with amazement that God would take us who have committed infinite evil. In our cancel culture, that God, an infinite evil has not canceled us, but has sent His own son into the world and provide for us an opportunity to be saved from the horror to come.

Dr. John Neufeld:

That should overwhelm us that the God whom we have fended also loves us. So, that’s why we put the righteousness of God and the love of God together. And we say, “My goodness, the fact that there is even a heaven, fills us with amazement,” whereas as you and I know that people are actually amazed that there is actually a hell. Actually, I’m amazed that there’s even a heaven.

Daniel Markin:

Yeah, I think I am amazed too, that there is a heaven, because as we see in the scriptures, we aren’t deserving of any of this. Our entire life is a life of being blessed by the grace of God. I want to jump into an area of when we talk about judgment and hell, that one of the pieces I see in our culture as well, that perhaps other cultures have a different perspective on, and that’s one of oppression. And I heard it put this way. I cannot remember his name, but I think he’s at around the Ukraine area, kind of the Eastern Europe theologian, Miroslav Volf, I think is his name if you’re familiar with him. He speaks about the fact that in our Western world, we oftentimes don’t think about judgment. We don’t think about hell, we don’t desire it because we ultimately think that things are good, that we’re living a pretty prosperous, blessed life.

Daniel Markin:

We live in a democracy, where things appear to be actually people have rights and people are taken care of. And his point was, if you were someone who lived under communist depression for years and years and years, or you are somebody whose family has been attacked, destroyed, you want there to be judgment. You’ll have a lifetime of that. You want things to be made right. You want a God who actually, even if you can’t have justice on this earth, you know that the people who stormed through, destroyed your family, will in the end face final judgment, because that will bring justice finally to our earth. And I think when people experience injustice, the hope that there will actually be a justice upon the enemies of God, speaks to the glory of God and the fact that He is a just God, but deep down is a longing that we all have for there to be deep and righteous justice.

Dr. John Neufeld:

Oh, yes, that would be the longing for justice is real. However, at the same time I would argue. Because of the nature of how we need to have it with a check in our own spirit, because for us to desire mercy rather than wrath. But I think also, because in the Western world, we tend not to think about judgment because we’ve lived so long in this bubble of peace and in this amazing time of prosperity. I mean, ever since the end of the second World War, the prosperity has been unparalleled, I think in world history. And so, we tend to think of ourselves that the judgment is never coming, but it is, Daniel. We all know it’s coming. When Moses wrote Psalm 90 and he says, “We are put to an end by your anger,” he said. So, I mean, the reality is every single one of us are dying.

Dr. John Neufeld:

I mean, death lies before us. There is right now, a cataclysm also in the Western world. Now, as I’ve heard the figures in Canada, the mortality rate in this country is a 100%. Every single one of us are going to die and it’s amazing how little we think about this. But think of it this way, it is a small thing for God to stop death from happening. He could merely snap his finger. And yet how many of us are there in this world? Six and a half billion, 7 billion, I don’t know what the number now is. But whatever that number is, God is planning on His day-timer the death of all 7 billion of us. Not one of us is going to escape the own encounter with our own personal death.

Dr. John Neufeld:

And Moses asks the question, “Does not, not inspire in us the fear of God?” He’s putting all of us to death. I mean, shouldn’t we stop, pause, consider that? So, you talk about Miroslav Volf, talking about the Eastern European experience, which is really the experience of the majority of people in the world, where they live at the edge of warfare, famine, disease that runs through unchecked, all these horrible things that happen to people. And it is a reminder of this tremor, like an earthquake tremor that the big one is coming. And we say, “Well, in the west, we’ve escaped that, so we’re not thinking of the tremor.” But yes, we are. The reality is that we may not be talking about it, but death is lurking and it’s coming for us.

Dr. John Neufeld:

I said beforehand that in the world today, the equivalent of the nation of the UK, disappears from the earth every single year. There’s not a moment in this Earth’s history when people aren’t crying out in agony, in sorrow, in this deep sense of despair. The cries of despair from this planet that rise up every single day is deafening. And how is it that we’re not hearing this? So, we should be asking ourselves, why is this going on? And a merciful God is saying, “Listen, I’m giving you a foretaste of what is to come. Will you not think about it? Will you not repent of your sins? Will you not turn to me and plead with me for mercy, for I am willing to be merciful if you would, but come to me.”

Dr. John Neufeld:

That’s I think the rightful way to speak about the human condition. I mean, we’re not all this wonderful people who are doing well. And I mean, that’s the way in which it’s spoken of, but all we need to do is think about reality that’s not our condition. Our condition is we are walking on a very narrow ledge, which we might tumble down into death at any point in time. That’s the nature of our situation.

Daniel Markin:

One of the hopes of the gospel too, and one of the things that, as I understand is that, well, there’s a purpose in death, but for believers, in many ways, death is the last act of our sanctification-

Dr. John Neufeld:

It is. It’s different from us.

Daniel Markin:

…becoming light. Yeah, it’s becoming like Christ because Christ died and was resurrected. And to finally put the stamp on, to finish our sanctification and to say, “I want to become like Christ,” even if we don’t want death, death comes and we need to face it with the hope of glory. But through that, we become more like Him in that we are resurrected. And I think that’s a really interesting piece of hope. When I was first told that, I was like, “Oh, so you mean it’s not just like it ends.” That was actually intentional. There’s a purpose behind it, and so there is with everything that God does on this earth. There’s always a purpose and intention and love behind it.

Dr. John Neufeld:

Yeah. If we don’t have a savior than death is a reminder of the judgment that awaits. But for a believer, it’s a different thing. And I would say, it’s this, because Christ died for us, and now, as Paul says, we are united with Him in His death. I love to use this illustration. When my oldest daughter first moved out, I remember she came home one day and she said, “Do you know how expensive groceries are?” And I said, “No, honey, are they expensive? I didn’t notice.” And then she laughed and we had a conversation about it. I mean, we paid for her groceries all those years. Why? Because we were overwhelmed with love for her. And if we never got a chance to experience death along with Christ, in the ages in eternity, we would not be able to say, “Oh, that’s what death felt like and you chose it for me. But now that I’ve experienced it as well, I know what death entails. I’ve been united with you in your death and therefore, I’m overwhelmed at the great love that you had for me when you died.”

Dr. John Neufeld:

So, yeah, it’s part of our sanctification, but it’s also a part of our union with Christ. We’re united with him death. I like to say that, when I lie dying, I hope there is a pastor available that knows this because I want to forget. And that will come to my bedside and say, “John, it’s now time for you to be united with Christ, as you have been in all things in life to be united also in this act of death.” So, it is what is a curse for the unbeliever is an invitation into holiness for a believer. It’s remarkable.

Daniel Markin:

Amen. As we are coming in for a landing here, John, I want to ask you, we spent a lot of time last time speaking about the physicality of heaven, it’s going to be a very physical place. Could you please just explain the physicality of hell? How’s that going to play out?

Dr. John Neufeld:

Yeah. So, we know at the judgment seat, the Bible talks about the first resurrection, which is the bodily resurrection of believers, it’s physical, but then it also speaks about the second death. So, it speaks about the physical resurrection also of unbelievers before the judgment. So, when I say that heaven is filled with sights and sounds, and smells and tastes and everything else, so is hell. And I think that’s probably the most horrifying thing of all, that the lake of fire, whether or not, to what extent, some of those are just figurative language. Yet the life to come, which Jesus, of course, spoke about in The Rich Man and Lazarus, has a physicality to it. Because, if you’ll remember, the rich man is parched with thirst and he cries out that someone might be able to put water on his tongue. So, he’s experiencing the horrors of the life to come physically.

Dr. John Neufeld:

Let me also add if I just can, I think that there are degrees of hell, even as there are degrees of heaven. And so, you know that the one who has committed the greatest of sins will receive the greatest of punishment. And so, I mean, all of these things do come to mind when we talk about it. So, to me, it’s a horrifying thought. I’m with C.S. Lewis, I wish it wasn’t in the Bible. It is, and I recognize it needs to be because of the glory of God. And I believe it because God has explained it to us and Jesus, our Lord, talked about it more than anyone else. And so, yes, it is there and it should propel us towards mission, evangelism, and the love of our neighbor.

Daniel Markin:

John, thank you for your time. And just again, where can our listeners get your book? Where can they get this so they can begin to consume this information?

Dr. John Neufeld:

Yeah. Just go onto our website, Back to the Bible, Canada, or backtothebible.ca, or you just Google Back to the Bible, Canada and it’ll get you right there. And you’ll find on our website that the book is being offered in the month of November for free. After that, it’s who knows what? I was going to say a $100 a copy, but that’s not true. Whatever the cost is, I don’t know what the cost is. I like to let the reader know that this is a ministry of Back to the Bible, Canada. I’m not trying to use this to get rich. I am not because all purchases of the book actually go to the ministry of Back to the Bible, Canada, which is as it should be. But in the month of November, the ministry wants to simply say, we want to bless people’s lives. Get a copy of it, learn what the Bible actually says about both heaven and hell.

Daniel Markin:

Amazing. Well, Dr. John, thank you very much. And we look forward to being able to speak again and you take care.

Dr. John Neufeld:

Yeah, you too, my brother. God bless.

Speaker 1:

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